Peaked Caps in uniforms

[bramling]

I certainly do think some TOC uniforms are downright scruffy - Northern's is one of the worst. No objection to the combination of a polo and smart trousers and shoes, but the shade of blue used just gives it a very scruffy look.

Agreed. Northern’s is not only scruffy in my view, but also almost like it’s been deliberately designed to be demeaning to the staff. Particularly unfortunate as the previous Northern franchise uniform was quite good.

I'm not sure the UK peaked cap has quite the same association - most people associate it with "jobsworths"

This country is quite strange in the way it views some things, the term jobsworth being but an example of that. NIMBY is another term I detest - it’s meant to refer to people who like to benefit from certain things but don’t want same on their own doorstep, but has become a standard go-to term for anyone who objects to any kind of planning application.

As for paramilitary security staff, I don't like that either. I get that stab vests are necessary in some places, and that they probably need to look threatening in some cases, but there's threatening and there's looking like a soldier.

I’m not a fan of the threatening look. For the real hardened scum I doubt it makes much difference (much as I don’t like them, body worn cameras probably serve more purpose here), and for everyone else it’s almost a form of bullying. I have much more respect for security or revenue staff who are simply dressed professionally. You can never really go wrong with a suit and tie as long as the colours aren’t garish.

I saw a couple of Avanti ones not so long ago and they were actually wearing army style boots, which gives totally the wrong impression - together with the Avanti green colour they genuinely looked military.

This gets my back up. The craze is spreading. Network Rail have got security staff with “RESPONSE OFFICER”, and then there’s Sadiq Khan’s “enforcement and conpliance” on TFL, the purpose of which I can’t understand as they don’t seem to do anything apart from stand around and chat. To be honest I find all this seedy and debasing.

At least most of them don't get close to committing the offence of impersonating a Police officer, as per the ones that patrol Canary Wharf, where they've clearly sought legal advice on just how close they can get to Police uniform without committing that offence. (See also those hi-vis jackets worn by some horse riders and cyclists that say "POLITE SLOW"* on them with the chequer markings you get on actual Police cars and uniforms).

And this gets my back up too.

It's certainly my line that if a pub has bouncers it's because it needs them (because the trade's finances are so tight that nobody would pay for them if they weren't necessary), and thus it isn't a nice pub that I'd perhaps better give a miss

Agreed. Though to be fair we were in a Wetherspoon in Exeter a couple of months ago where they had bouncers, and they were absolutely as professional as can be. That was Exeter though, which is a fairly tame city, and I got the impression they were there mainly to keep an eye on the high number of students.

 

[43066]

Elitist, certainly, or less politely a snob, I would say.

I frequently agree with many of your posts on here but IMO these kind of comments might be construed as rather offensive to many.
Driving trains was traditionally a very 'working class' job although I don't believe it is these days due to the professional salary and the reduction in the manual / physical element of the job, particularly on the passenger side of things. Always a good idea to remember one's roots or at least the history of the industry one is employed in, I find.

I’ll take that, and I’ve edited appropriately. Apologies, we can all have an off day.

Agreed. Northern’s is not only scruffy in my view, but also almost like it’s been deliberately designed to be demeaning to the staff. Particularly unfortunate as the previous Northern franchise uniform was quite good.

That appears to be a running theme with railway uniforms, unfortunately. The best you can hope for is that it blends in and isn’t too obvious. Then you get some in garish colours, such as EMR’s current effort where the staff look like extras from a low budget Ribena commercial! Need I say more.

Avanti’s seems (to me at least) to be the pick of the current bunch, fairly middle of the road/discrete (at least for drivers).

 

[Horizon22]

IMO they look absolutely ridiculous. Much as parts of Southeastern are rough, there’s simply no reason for staff to be going round dressed like they’re ready for guerilla warfare.

There's a difference at Southeastern between Revenue Protection Officers (RPOs) and Rail Enforcement Officers (REOs), the latter of which is much more hands-on.

 

[Western Lord]

I take it that those who have such an aversion to peaked caps never fly or go on cruises.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I take it that those who have such an aversion to peaked caps never fly or go on cruises.

There are only 2 members of staff on a flight that wear them, though (the pilot and copilot), or 4 on a double crewed long haul, and you don't spend much time with them. And I think people understand that seafaring conventions differ from elsewhere.

 

[Taunton]

Railway uniforms have tended to go down the toilet since the 1990s. There have certainly been some absolutely dire uniforms over recent years, the current LU uniform being a prime example.

The current DLR train staff's uniforms have achieved the extraordinary position of making Geoff Marshall's normal video attire look smart ...

 

[GWVillager]

Slightly related to this thread, I note that the new station signage (at Sheffield) includes a pictogram of a Station Supervisor wearing a cap whilst sitting in an office. This does sort of set expectations.

Is this a GBR thing?


I completely agree with others about the general state of uniforms, WMR in particular appears to have deteriorated to the extent where many guards aren’t really wearing anything identifiable as a uniform and I think this is carrying over to their behaviour. It’s harder to imagine an official in suit, tie and peaked cap slumped unhelpfully in the back cab than the same official in a scruffy puffer jacket.

 

[bramling]

The current DLR train staff's uniforms have achieved the extraordinary position of making Geoff Marshall's normal video attire look smart ...

Don’t think I’ve consciously seen the current DLR uniform, but if it’s an offshoot of the LU clown outfit with DLR colours then I can imagine!

Is this a GBR thing?


I completely agree with others about the general state of uniforms, WMR in particular appears to have deteriorated to the extent where many guards aren’t really wearing anything identifiable as a uniform and I think this is carrying over to their behaviour. It’s harder to imagine an official in suit, tie and peaked cap slumped unhelpfully in the back cab than the same official in a scruffy puffer jacket.

An interesting point, as many on LU now wear all sorts of stuff, especially train staff (for whom like in much of the rail industry a blind eye is very much turned so long as people look okay and comply with safety requirements). The side-effect of this is it can cause the same attitude to spread further, as you say.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't do hats in general so I'd hate it. As a guard on the regional railway my job is fairly casual and chilled - I wear my uniform correctly but I'm far more bothered about how comfortable it is when I'm slinging luggage about in the summer at Skegness than I am whether it gives me a form of authority.

I generate my own authority by being engaging and visible and it pays off when things go wrong, dressing in an inapproachable manner wouldn't achieve that.

 

[Meerkat]

It's certainly my line that if a pub has bouncers it's because it needs them (because the trade's finances are so tight that nobody would pay for them if they weren't necessary), and thus it isn't a nice pub that I'd perhaps better give a miss

Or it is a nice pub and it wants it to keep it that way. Even McDonalds have bouncers nowadays.

I quite like a peaked cap for a uniform - gives a look of professionalism and authority. Helps staff stand out, especially if the uniform otherwise doesn't.
Its really not a good look when the customer facing staff look scruffy - as ill-fitting polo shirts and fleeces usually tend to.

 

[bramling]

Or it is a nice pub and it wants it to keep it that way. Even McDonalds have bouncers nowadays.

I quite like a peaked cap for a uniform - gives a look of professionalism and authority. Helps staff stand out, especially if the uniform otherwise doesn't.
Its really not a good look when the customer facing staff look scruffy - as ill-fitting polo shirts and fleeces usually tend to.

Must admit I hate polo shirts with a passion. Personal opinion however I think they look awful, especially when dirty, sweaty or on people with a higher BMI. But having said that, I can understand why they’re suitable for drivers.

No excuse for someone like TFL having them across the board though. Managers wearing polo shirts is just ridiculous.

Fleeces I don’t find so bad. They can look okay providing the design and colours are okay.

 

[GWVillager]

Must admit I hate polo shirts with a passion. Personal opinion however I think they look awful, especially when dirty, sweaty or on people with a higher BMI. But having said that, I can understand why they’re suitable for drivers.

No excuse for someone like TFL having them across the board though. Managers wearing polo shirts is just ridiculous.

Fleeces I don’t find so bad. They can look okay providing the design and colours are okay.

Couldn't agree more with polo shirts, except possibly the bit about drivers. They're still not out of the public view and are indeed seen quite regularly as the train arrives.

I don't do hats in general so I'd hate it. As a guard on the regional railway my job is fairly casual and chilled - I wear my uniform correctly but I'm far more bothered about how comfortable it is when I'm slinging luggage about in the summer at Skegness than I am whether it gives me a form of authority.

I generate my own authority by being engaging and visible and it pays off when things go wrong, dressing in an inapproachable manner wouldn't achieve that.

Of course, attitudes matter far more than uniforms. But I think it cannot be denied that uniforms do have some impact on the way one carries themselves and behaves.

 

[driverd]

In my first ever Railway job, just over a decade ago, it was mentioned on our corporate induction that first group (as was the franchise owner) had done away with hats. The reason being (and running through a lot of their thinking) was that it makes you look too much like a police officer, and that's not conducive to friendly and approachable customer service.

This was a running theme through a lot of TOCs between 2005 and 2015. At another employer we were even discouraged from performing a ticket "inspection", and we should always phrase it a ticket "check". I actually didn't disagree with any of this - being a friendly and welcoming service to all customers (and not just those of a certain age/background who expect staff to have an air of authority) is really important and absolutely supported the drastic growth in passenger numbers. Lots of people would see a peak capped wearing, stern, ticket inspecting member of staff as a thoroughly unapproachable jobsworth whose getting a little bit too much pleasure out of the small bit of authority the job infers. Its a stereotype that's not totally without justification.

All this said, I do feel the gauntlet has swung a little too far the other way. As others have noted, the postie/lifeguard/holiday rep appearance that seems to have been adopted across the industry just seems to belittle staff (personally I find the GWR/GTR driver uniforms the worst two offenders; so scruffy I'd feel demeaned to wear it and far too unprofessional to naturally infer any responsibility on the member of staff). Even though first group didn't like the hat, they still provided a pretty pleasing and well made 3 piece suit. I think it's by far my favourite uniform to date.

 

[XAM2175]

To the best of my knowledge DB still issue them to station staff, in red with grey cord, and bearing a stylized winged-wheel icon in silver, as helpfully illustrated by this stock photo:

I believe that a burgundy version is available to train crew, and a black version with red cord is available to drivers, but these are seen far less frequently.

 

[GWVillager]

To the best of my knowledge DB still issue them to station staff, in red with grey cord, and bearing a stylized winged-wheel icon in silver, as helpfully illustrated by this stock photo:

I believe that a burgundy version is available to train crew, and a black version with red cord is available to drivers, but these are seen far less frequently.

Whilst I can hardly call the red cap stylish, I don't think it can be said it looks out of place!

 

[Meerkat]

Whilst I can hardly call the red cap stylish, I don't think it can be said it looks out of place!

And importantly it will stand out on the station, even on a shorter person.

PS re worries about looking like a policeman - that's an argument for looking smarter as coppers these days look scruffy as hell in fleece tops rather than shirts, and combat style trousers.

 

[GWVillager]

And importantly it will stand out on the station, even on a shorter person.

PS re worries about looking like a policeman - that's an argument for looking smarter as coppers these days look scruffy as hell in fleece tops rather than shirts, and combat style trousers.

Indeed, Officers rarely wear peaked caps but high visibility stab vests are ubiquitous

 

[Meerkat]

Indeed, Officers rarely wear peaked caps but high visibility stab vests are ubiquitous

Some forces only wear peaked caps (instead of helmets). They wear stab vests because now they dont have lapels they need somewhere to hide their thumbs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or it is a nice pub and it wants it to keep it that way. Even McDonalds have bouncers nowadays.

Only ones with ASB problems, which is kind of my point.

 

[Meerkat]

Only ones with ASB problems, which is kind of my point.

But if the pubs bouncers stop there being ASB problems the it’s better than a nearby pub without?
I’m thinking pubs with doormen rather than ones who need them inside.

 

[the sniper]

SWR are now wearing baseball caps though I noticed recently. I preferred the caps to be honest. Baseball caps make staff look like bouncers or security guards in my opinion and aren’t as smart.

That sounds awful. Reminds of when North Wales Police over to baseball caps, they just looked like low rent bouncers.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

I'm personally a fan of headgear with smarter uniforms as I feel it completes the look, but of course as already mentioned only when the rest of the uniform/brand is equally smart and professional. Having recently spent some time in France, a lot of the SNCF staff I saw at stations had sort of squashy looking caps on which similar to the DB photo above helped pick them out in a crowd without them wearing a garish HV or something.

 

[DarloRich]

As for why this may be, my guess is this is but another symptom of the systematic trashing of every public institution in this country which Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell started.

I am not sure this stands up to any scrutiny.

Does that really look smart? Or is it just a tad militaristic, anachronistic, and odd in 2023? Especially considering these people are not performing a ceremonial pomp and pageantry type role, they’re engaging with people and entering into conflict situations with them, with potentially serious legal consequences in some situations.

I’m just conscious that there is an element of fetishisation of historical uniforms amongst railway enthusiasts, and I’m not sure peaked caps or Kepis are now relevant or appropriate in any setting, when viewed objectively.

This is my view. Old fashioned and silly. Uniforms need to be suitable for the environment they are worn in and for the people wearing them.

I don't see a hat as in any way a symbol of respect or officialdom - I see it ( outside the military) as an indicator of a pompous jobsworth who needs a symbol to project thier authority.

I take it that those who have such an aversion to peaked caps never fly or go on cruises.

Why does a pilot wear hat beyond historical convention? What benefit does it bring them in discharging thier responsibilities?

that's an argument for looking smarter as coppers these days look scruffy as hell in fleece tops rather than shirts, and combat style trousers.

But what of practicality, comfort for the wearer and ability to clean and press? This board seems obsessed in how things look above all other points. Uniforms have to work for the person wearing them all week.

 

[GWVillager]

Why does a pilot wear hat beyond historical convention? What benefit does it bring them in discharging thier responsibilities?

Not really any other reason, but tradition and style are not to be scoffed at if they don’t impede duties.

But what of practicality, comfort for the wearer and ability to clean and press? This board seems obsessed in how things look above all other points. Uniforms have to work for the person wearing them all week.

I personally think the comfort argument is a little overblown, caps are perfectly fine to wear unless you’re doing acrobatics or whatever, in which case you can (and do) always take them off.

Besides, the rest of uniforms aren’t too bad, if they were it would be considered inhumane for so many Secondary schools to have suits and ties for uniforms. If 11 year olds can do it, why can’t professional public workers?

 

[DarloRich]

Not really any other reason, but tradition and style are not to be scoffed at if they don’t impede duties.

Tradition and conservatism is what holds this county back. it is silly and stuffy and a waste of time imo. Because stationmasters in them olden days wore caps everyone should still wear caps is a bonkers argument!

Besides, the rest of uniforms aren’t too bad, if they were it would be considered inhumane for so many Secondary schools to have suits and ties for uniforms. If 11 year olds can do it, why can’t professional public workers?

11 year olds shouldn't be wearing a uniform of any sorts. Regardless, uniforms aren't the issue. Silly hats are. You need a sensible smart uniform that works for the person wearing it. A peaked cap is not part of that imo.

 

[Aviator88]

Why does a pilot wear hat beyond historical convention? What benefit does it bring them in discharging thier responsibilities?

So they can put it on the rear parcel shelf of their car so everybody knows they're a pilot, naturally.

 

[DarloRich]

So they can put it on the rear parcel shelf of their car so everybody knows they're a pilot, naturally.

fair enough. Good to see it is for a practical reason!

 

[GWVillager]

11 year olds shouldn't be wearing a uniform of any sorts. Regardless, uniforms aren't the issue. Silly hats are. You need a sensible smart uniform that works for the person wearing it. A peaked cap is not part of that imo.

Fair enough! I just think that caps can be part of what works on the railway, where they serve a practical purpose.

 

[DarloRich]

Fair enough! I just think that caps can be part of what works on the railway, where they serve a practical purpose.

and also fair enough! I just wonder about (or perhaps cant see) the practical purpose

 

[GWVillager]

and also fair enough! I just wonder about (or perhaps cant see) the practical purpose

Identification. On a crowded platform the peaked cap is invaluable to find staff (both for passengers and other workers).