Penalty Fare for being on wrong train by 3 minutes - Leeds to Manchester

[1rain]

Hi everyone, I hope this message finds you well.
I’m looking for some advice as I received a penalty fare from travelling on the wrong train from Leeds to Manchester on Thursday 18th April.

To provide context, I had purchased a ticket on Trainpal with my 16-25 railcard for the 4:42pm Northern Rail train from Leeds to Manchester. However, I mistakenly boarded the 4:45pm TransPennine Express train, not realising it was under a different company, and believing the 3 minute difference to be a slight delay common with train services.

Then, when the ticket inspector came round he told me I had boarded the wrong train, and issued me a penalty fare of £127, £77 if I pay within 21 days. (£50 fine plus the £27 ticket). I had paid £8.80 with my railcard for the train I was supposed to board with Northern Rail.

I was unaware that trains to the same destination from one station at essentially the same time could be operated by different companies. He told me I could appeal this situation and gave me a reference number and where to submit the application.

As a student already experiencing financial strain, this penalty is going to significantly impact me. I genuinely did not intend to break any rules or fare evade; I simply misunderstood the situation due to the 3 minute train time difference and my lack of experience with train services in the area (I am not originally from Leeds and hadn’t made a journey to Manchester before).

In light of these circumstances, I am seeking advice on how best to appeal this situation. I understand that it may not be likely grounds for acceptance since it was my mistake, however I’d like to think it's worth a shot! Any guidance or advice would be greatly appreciated, I have never been issued a penalty before or written an appeal - am in the dark and quite stressed!

Cheers



!!! *** EDIT *** !!!

Thanks for all the engagement and advice so far, it's been really interesting to hear all your input!

A few people have asked how I made the mistake / what information I relied upon.

I looked at the station information board in Leeds train station and saw the departure to 'Manchester', at 16:45, knowing my journey was also to Manchester (as this is what it says on my ticket) I assumed the the 3 minute difference (opposed to my 4:42pm departure) was a slight delay, as I know delays in departure by a couple minutes are common.
I am not too experienced in train travel, so after seeing a destination to Manchester at my (assumed) correct time, I hopped on, not realising this would have such severe consequences!
Some people have said the train I was supposed to be on ended at Chester - if this was written on the board I wouldn't have realised it was my train as my app says Manchester Victoria is my destination, so this is why I only scanned the station board for destinations to Manchester. This is mistake that I've learnt the hard way!

Also, I have uploaded a picture of my penalty fare (with sensitive detail blacked out) as some people suggested uploading it in case of mistakes.

One more question - I have seen a few comments saying if I submit for an appeal the TOC can't criminally prosecute me? I hope I am understanding that right. And it seems that while I am waiting for the appeal it freezes the payment deadline? Just double checking to make sure I understand right before/if I submit an appeal.

Who would have thought a 3 minute mistake would be the most expensive one of my life!
Thanks again for all the input.

 

[methecooldude]

Unfortunally you purchased an Advance ticket which clearly states the time of the train and the fact it's 'Northern Only'. I doubt any appeal would succeed and unless there is technical grounds (due to signage etc) I would advise you to pay the penalty fare and chalk it up to a learning experience.

 

[Fermiboson]

Appeals freeze the clock for prompt payment, so it is still worth appealing to buy time to save up money. It has the added bonus that once the result of the first appeal has been decided the TOC is barred from prosecuting you.

Technical grounds the appeal may succeed on include the signage of the station in question, and the penalty fare notice itself. Could you upload a copy of the penalty fare notice you were given with personal details, reference numbers etc. redacted? Others will be able to advise on what grounds specifically may be available for appeal once you do so.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Unfortunally you purchased an Advance ticket which clearly states the time of the train and the fact it's 'Northern Only'. I doubt any appeal would succeed and unless there is technical grounds (due to signage etc) I would advise you to pay the penalty fare and chalk it up to a learning experience.

+1 for this. You need to know that in our experience ‘technical’ appeals only succeed at the third (final) stage of the appeal process - and there’s a fairly low success rate even at that point.

You are currently able to settle the matter for £77. Compare that against the time and hassle you will face in taking an appeal the whole way through with no guarantee of success: you may find that it is worth paying to bring the case to a prompt end.

 

[Haywain]

You are currently able to settle the matter for £77.

And the fare element of £27 will remain payable even if you appeal successfully.

 

[island]

Northern tickets aren't valid on TransPennine's much quicker trains – you'd have been nearly half an hour earlier using the 16:45 rather than the 16:42 train. Your ticket clearly says Northern Only. I can see no grounds for appeal.

A bit of advice for the future – you'll pay less when you buy direct from Northern or any train company. Your ticket says its face value was £7.65 and you mentioned "trainpal" charged you £8.80. This is a known issue with third party providers.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is worth posting a copy of the notice you received - with your details removed/blacked out - here to see if it was filled out correctly. Sometimes, fatal errors are made by the staff which render them invalid. There are a number of things which need to be filled out properly and sometimes they are not.

 

[Haywain]

This is a known issue with third party providers.

*Some* third party providers.

 

[Watershed]

*Some* third party providers.

Quite. It's inaccurate to tar all third party retailers (TPRs) with the same brush; indeed many TPRs offer advantages over using TOC retailers - such as split tickets, seat selectors, and no admin or refund fees.

 

[furlong]

So you'd bought this a few days in advance of travel; the ticketed train left from platform 10, destination Chester. The train you caught left platform 16 destination Manchester Airport?

What information sources precisely did you use that took you to the wrong platform? Something on your phone - what exactly? Information boards at the station - which exactly? where? what did they say?

(I'm imagining perhaps you only noticed one 'Manchester' possibility and the other wasn't shown because the train continued on to Chester? But what actually happened?)

 

[Snow1964]

(I'm imagining perhaps you only noticed one 'Manchester' possibility and the other wasn't shown because the train continued on to Chester? But what actually happened?)

Was the train shown on destination board, or was your train shown as only going to station before, as faster train gets there first. Hopefully someone in Leeds area can clarify.

If train wasn't shown then there is another possible technical appeal reason, because would be impossible to know if it was one of the 7.2% of trains that Northern cancel (Office of Road and Rail cancellations data for year to March 2024) so would have had to get different train anyway.

The basis is if train was not displayed then anyone without inside knowledge would assume removed that day (known as P-coded) or slightly retimed (which is what Op did), because no longer as per Advance ticket time.

 

[LowLevel]

Was the train shown on destination board, or was your train shown as only going to station before, as faster train gets there first. Hopefully someone in Leeds area can clarify.

If train wasn't shown then there is another possible technical appeal reason, because would be impossible to know if it was one of the 7.2% of trains that Northern cancel (Office of Road and Rail cancellations data for year to March 2024) so would have had to get different train anyway.

The basis is if train was not displayed then anyone without inside knowledge would assume removed that day (known as P-coded) or slightly retimed (which is what Op did), because no longer as per Advance ticket time.

It comes up as Chester and displays Manchester Victoria as a calling point. Both trains ran as booked, the Northern service leaving 2 minutes late at 1644 and the TPE at 1645.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can imagine it is tricky at Leeds with two trains which have Manchester Victoria in their calling points departing 3 minutes apart. My daughter and granddaughter made that journey a while back, and I was most emphatic in my instructions that they must catch the Northern with destination Chester, not the TPE. In this case the OP has fallen foul of the circumstances, and has to take it on the chin. They could drag it out with some appeals, but these will almost certainly fail. One of the hazards of having a competitive railway service.

 

[Turtle]

I can imagine it is tricky at Leeds with two trains which have Manchester Victoria in their calling points departing 3 minutes apart. My daughter and granddaughter made that journey a while back, and I was most emphatic in my instructions that they must catch the Northern with destination Chester, not the TPE. In this case the OP has fallen foul of the circumstances, and has to take it on the chin. They could drag it out with some appeals, but these will almost certainly fail. One of the hazards of having a competitive railway service.

I'd prefer the term "disfunctional" rather than competitive.

 

[Ken H]

So you'd bought this a few days in advance of travel; the ticketed train left from platform 10, destination Chester. The train you caught left platform 16 destination Manchester Airport?

What information sources precisely did you use that took you to the wrong platform? Something on your phone - what exactly? Information boards at the station - which exactly? where? what did they say?

(I'm imagining perhaps you only noticed one 'Manchester' possibility and the other wasn't shown because the train continued on to Chester? But what actually happened?)

The ticket the OP posted an image of doesnt mention Chester. He had a ticket to Manchester. How was he supposed to know he should get a train to a different place. The ticket should say the trains destination so he would know to get a Chester train and get off at Manchester.

I can imagine it is tricky at Leeds with two trains which have Manchester Victoria in their calling points departing 3 minutes apart. My daughter and granddaughter made that journey a while back, and I was most emphatic in my instructions that they must catch the Northern with destination Chester, not the TPE. In this case the OP has fallen foul of the circumstances, and has to take it on the chin. They could drag it out with some appeals, but these will almost certainly fail. One of the hazards of having a competitive railway service.

The information screens are rubbish. going from Leeds to Skipton I have to scan for Skipton, Lancaster, Morecambe and Carlisle to find the first train.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket the OP posted an image of doesnt mention Chester. He had a ticket to Manchester. How was he supposed to know he should get a train to a different place. The ticket should say the trains destination so he would know to get a Chester train and get off at Manchester.

So if you see there are two trains to Manchester and are not sure would you not look for more detail that will clarify which of them you should be on?

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticket the OP posted an image of doesnt mention Chester. He had a ticket to Manchester. How was he supposed to know he should get a train to a different place.

How has anyone ever managed to catch a train to anywhere other than the train's final stop before?

 

[anothertyke]

The ticket the OP posted an image of doesnt mention Chester. He had a ticket to Manchester. How was he supposed to know he should get a train to a different place. The ticket should say the trains destination so he would know to get a Chester train and get off at Manchester.


The information screens are rubbish. going from Leeds to Skipton I have to scan for Skipton, Lancaster, Morecambe and Carlisle to find the first train.

That is the mitigation along with Man Vic possibly not being on the first screen of stations served by the 1642. If the OP is a very infrequent traveller I could believe it. But surely most people would say to themselves 'I've got a ticket for the 1642, let's scan across the departures'.It's not as if the final destination of the 1645 is Manchester Victoria either.

PS At Glasgow Central I have mistakenly travelled to Pollockshaw when I was supposed to be meeting someone at Pollockshields. At unfamiliar stations strange things happen.

 

[Fermiboson]

Possibly the "next fastest train to..." board would be a source of misleading information, in this case.

If the railway is going to impose such heavy fines on boarding the wrong advance train, it should also provide methods for passengers to quickly identify their train without having to scan through all the departure boards located at every possible corner of the station (e.g. pre-booked platform number, headcodes so the passenger can simply ask staff who can very quickly answer "1L07 is platform 3"). That said, there is a very big centralised display with intermediate stops etc. displayed clearly at Leeds which iirc is accessible from inside the gateline, so OP would be very well advised to exercise due caution next time round. Other big interchanges like Crewe, Chester and Doncaster though, not so lucky.

 

[LowLevel]

Possibly the "next fastest train to..." board would be a source of misleading information, in this case.

If the railway is going to impose such heavy fines on boarding the wrong advance train, it should also provide methods for passengers to quickly identify their train without having to scan through all the departure boards located at every possible corner of the station (e.g. pre-booked platform number, headcodes so the passenger can simply ask staff who can very quickly answer "1L07 is platform 3"). That said, there is a very big centralised display with intermediate stops etc. displayed clearly at Leeds which iirc is accessible from inside the gateline, so OP would be very well advised to exercise due caution next time round. Other big interchanges like Crewe, Chester and Doncaster though, not so lucky.

If like most other places we actually had publicly recognisable train numbers the issue would disappear. I've never worked out why with a plethora of different train services with random stops the UK doesn't use them. If I know I want train 9076 stopping at Little Bigtown then provided you're sensible with the numbering then it should be nearly fool proof.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If the OP is a very infrequent traveller I could believe it. But surely most people would say to themselves 'I've got a ticket for the 1642....

I have most definitely been in the company of a person who is not hugely used to train travel and actually would genuinely NOT know that the scheduled departure time is a specifically defining number. I have similarly seen many instances of, again, infrequent users, who (still) do not recognise the different TOCs and the rules and responsibilities that surround them.

 

[island]

I have most definitely been in the company of a person who is not hugely used to train travel and actually would genuinely NOT know that the scheduled departure time is a specifically defining number. I have similarly seen many instances of, again, infrequent users, who (still) do not recognise the different TOCs and the rules and responsibilities that surround them.

We really could do with adopting a train number system like is used in continental Europe, which would put all this beyond argument.

 

[Watershed]

We really could do with adopting a train number system like is used in continental Europe, which would put all this beyond argument.

Indeed, such a system already exists by virtue of the Retail Service ID (RSID) that is used in retail systems to identify services when issuing reservations. RSIDs just need to be made visible!

 

[furlong]

The image shows an eticket in an app. Why couldn't it also show the platform? It has a refresh button and could change colour or give a warning to check for updates until it knows the train is actually in the platform. (And there could be a 'disruption mode' that turns that feature off when there's major disruption and the railway knows its systems are not keeping up with reality.)

But we need to hear from the OP what information they actually relied upon as that might provide the basis for an appeal.

 

[Haywain]

The image shows an eticket in an app. Why couldn't it also show the platform? It has a refresh button and could change colour or give a warning to check for updates until it knows the train is actually in the platform. (And there could be a 'disruption mode' that turns that feature off when there's major disruption and the railway knows its systems are not keeping up with reality.)

That would then require the ticket to be held in an app, and for the phone to have connectivity. eTickets don't work like that and, judging by the comments here about mTickets over several years, nobody wants them to work like that.

 

[furlong]

That would then require the ticket to be held in an app, and for the phone to have connectivity. eTickets don't work like that and, judging by the comments here about mTickets over several years, nobody wants them to work like that.

The ticket shown does appear to be in an app so the capability could be there (The app knows the retail ID, which is embedded into the ticket, and could look up the real time platform and add it to the display.)

"One size fits all" is the mistake - there is no reason why a capable app could not opt to add this information when displaying an e-ticket making it easier for the passenger. That doesn't mean other formats in which e-tickets can be displayed have to become invalid.

 

[Fermiboson]

The ticket shown does appear to be in an app so the capability could be there (The app knows the retail ID, which is embedded into the ticket, and could look up the real time platform and add it to the display.)

"One size fits all" is the mistake - there is no reason why a capable app could not opt to add this information when displaying an e-ticket making it easier for the passenger. That doesn't mean other formats in which e-tickets can be displayed have to become invalid.

Yet one can imagine in this scenario another thread - “My ticket always shows the platform, why does it not show it this time? Gateline staff told me it must be a bug with the app. I couldn’t catch my train. This is so complicated!”

 

[anothertyke]

We really could do with adopting a train number system like is used in continental Europe, which would put all this beyond argument.

Yes, train NT4170 on the bottom of the big screen at Leeds and prominently on the advance ticket would help.

 

[furlong]

The ticket could also show on it the same final destination that appears on the station boards.

 

[alholmes]

The ticket could also show on it the same final destination that appears on the station boards.

It could. But we’d then get some passengers thinking that the ticket allows travel to that destination.