Penalty Fare Notice

[XPontheTrap]

How do I appeal my Penalty Fare?
When I got issued with the Penalty Fare, the officers said i could appeal since it was first time being issued a penalty fare
So I went on the penalty service website and it's asking me for a notice number with 16 digits but the one i was given is only 12 digits long
Futhermore it's also asking for an offense code but it's no where to be seen on my ticket
What should I do i'm not trying to pay 53.60-103.60 pounds.
I have 21 days left.

 

[skyhigh]

If you were able to upload a copy of what you've been given (with personal details redacted) it would make things easier to help you.

If you were also able to explain more about how and why you were issued a Penalty Fare, we would be able to assist with how likely an appeal is to succeed.

 

[XPontheTrap]

If you were able to upload a copy of what you've been given (with personal details redacted) it would make things easier to help you.

If you were also able to explain more about how and why you were issued a Penalty Fare, we would be able to assist with how likely an appeal is to succeed.

The reason I was issued with a penalty fee was because of an invalid ticket. I didn't have any ticket because I actually had no money to pay for a ticket. But I don't they'll approve of my appeal because it says excuses like "Lost Ticket" or "No money". I've realised my mistake but I'm hoping my case can still be appealed.

 

[Mzzzs]

The reason I was issued with a penalty fee was because of an invalid ticket. I didn't have any ticket because I actually had no money to pay for a ticket. But I don't they'll approve of my appeal because it says excuses like "Lost Ticket" or "No money". I've realised my mistake but I'm hoping my case can still be appealed.

You need to cover up the personal details I can see it in the image.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the grounds of appeal are "I have no money to pay the fare" I regret that this will not result in a successful appeal. There are fixed grounds for appeal and having no money and bunking the fare isn't one of them.

You can appeal here: https://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ and click Tyne and Wear Metro - it was they who issued the penalty fare, correct?

It is still important to appeal as it gives you time to gather the funds to pay it, as an appeal stops the clock on any increase in the penalty fare.

Could you also confirm your age - are you indeed a child, under 16?

 

[XPontheTrap]

If the grounds of appeal are "I have no money to pay the fare" I regret that this will not result in a successful appeal. There are fixed grounds for appeal and having no money and bunking the fare isn't one of them.

You can appeal here: https://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ and click Tyne and Wear Metro - it was they who issued the penalty fare, correct?

It is still important to appeal as it gives you time to gather the funds to pay it, as an appeal stops the clock on any increase in the penalty fare.

Could you also confirm your age - are you indeed a child, under 16?

I just turned 16 like 2 months ago

 

[MotCO]

The ticket shows 'Child'. If 'Child' is up to 15 years, 11 months and 30 days old, then should the OP declare that he is not in fact a child? Would the Metro find out, and make things worse for the OP?

 

[furlong]

I don't quite understand this yet. The base charge is £3.60. It says Child - but that looks like an Adult fare (for a different number of zones?) Can anyone more familiar explain?

Did you give your age correctly or show any identification or a Pop card or anything like that?
(The first thing here is to understand if the form was filled in correctly based on what you told the officers at the time.)

 

[XPontheTrap]

I don't quite understand this yet. The base charge is £3.60. It says Child - but that looks like an Adult fare (for a different number of zones?) Can anyone more familiar explain?

Did you give your age correctly or show any identification or a Pop card or anything like that?
(The first thing here is to understand if the form was filled in correctly based on what you told the officers at the time.)

I told them i was born in 2007 but they still put child

 

[GadgetMan]

I told them i was born in 2007 but they still put child

What did you tell them your age was? If you said 15, then 2007 makes it possible for you to be 15.

 

[XPontheTrap]

What did you tell them your age was? If you said 15, then 2007 makes it possible for you to be 15.

16 after all they asked me for my date of birth

 

[skyhigh]

16 after all they asked me for my date of birth

Is the date of birth you've blocked out correct?

If so it probably means child as in under 18, not child in railway fare terms.

 

[XPontheTrap]

Is the date of birth you've blocked out correct?

If so it probably means child as in under 18, not child in railway fare terms.

it's correct

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Has the OP any possible grounds whatsoever for successfully appealing this Tyne & Wear Metro penalty fare, or would they be well advised to settle up the amount now requested at the lower amount of £53.60?

 

[furlong]

The first problem is to establish why the base fare is £3.60. It might need local knowledge as I'm unable to explain that from the website. If the fare is wrong for a 16 year old child based on the age given at the time, then an appeal is straightforward. That's even before checking the signage and the rest of the wording on the form. If it's because they have some sort of standard fare or unusual zonal system, I can't find reference to that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Believe the adult fare (i.e. persons aged 16+) for a two zones single journey on the Tyne & Wear Metro is £3.60.

A one zones single would be £2.60.

So is a journey from Walkergate on the Zone A/B boundary to Monument in the Newcastle City Centre in Zone A, a one zone or two zone journey?

 

[furlong]

Well that would be another failure for web-based AI which told me it was a different price!

 

[swt_passenger]

The first problem is to establish why the base fare is £3.60. It might need local knowledge as I'm unable to explain that from the website. If the fare is wrong for a 16 year old child based on the age given at the time, then an appeal is straightforward. That's even before checking the signage and the rest of the wording on the form. If it's because they have some sort of standard fare or unusual zonal system, I can't find reference to that.

I think cheaper 16-18 year old fares are only available on a specific type of PAYG card (a Pop Card?). If you don’t use that card, then Adult walk up fares from a machine vary by zones passed though. £3.60 fits the stated journey. This has been found wrong in later posts, it should only be one zone.

 

[furlong]

Wikipedia (and the Metro map) places both stations in Zone A and the fares page shows there are only 3 zones (one zone / two zone / all zones - A / B / C) and the Metro Single for an Adult for 1 zone is £2.60

Perhaps XPontheTrap can check the correct adult fare on a ticket machine and take a photo showing it? If it's 3.60 that's the end of this discussion, but if it's 2.60 then an appeal can be formulated on the grounds that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the Regulations and submit the photo as part of the appeal.

I am presuming you told them you began your journey at Walkergate?

 

[XPontheTrap]

Wikipedia (and the Metro map) places both stations in Zone A and the fares page shows there are only 3 zones (one zone / two zone / all zones - A / B / C) and the Metro Single for an Adult for 1 zone is £2.60

Perhaps XPontheTrap can check the correct adult fare on a ticket machine and take a photo showing it? If it's 3.60 that's the end of this discussion, but if it's 2.60 then an appeal can be formulated on the grounds that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the Regulations and submit the photo as part of the appeal.

I am presuming you told them you began your journey at Walkergate?

I told them i began my journey at Walkergate
Plus I hade an Adult Single Ticket and it's £2.60 from like 5 days ago

 

[furlong]

So they've made a stupid mistake that lets you appeal.
The legal document you have to refer to is a total mess because it was amended and they still haven't applied the amendments directly to the text.
Basically regulation 9 is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9 - but it got amended with the bits linked from the red box that change it to be £50 or £100 plus the fare.
Essentially it says EXACTLY what the fare charged has to be. If they charge a different amount, then they haven't issued the penalty in accordance with the regulations and you can appeal under 16(3)(a) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

Take a look at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southeastern-appeal-help.248420/page-3#post-6221626
for an example of how to write an appeal. It will need to quote some different parts of the amended regulations that say what the amount of the penalty fare has to be. Your appeal is simpler and shorter than that example.

The key words are "plus the price of the full single fare applicable" here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/5/made#regulation-5-1
That seems to be £2.60 in your case not the £3.60 on the form they gave you.

 

[XPontheTrap]

So they've made a stupid mistake that lets you appeal.
The legal document you have to refer to is a total mess because it was amended and they still haven't applied the amendments directly to the text.
Basically regulation 9 is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9 - but it got amended with the bits linked from the red box that change it to be £50 or £100 plus the fare.
Essentially it says EXACTLY what the fare charged has to be. If they charge a different amount, then they haven't issued the penalty in accordance with the regulations and you can appeal under 16(3)(a) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

Take a look at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southeastern-appeal-help.248420/page-3#post-6221626
for an example of how to write an appeal. It will need to quote some different parts of the amended regulations that say what the amount of the penalty fare has to be.

The key words are "plus the price of the full single fare applicable" here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/5/made#regulation-5-1
That seems to be £2.60 in your case not the £3.60 on the form they gave you.

what happens after I appeal?

 

[AlterEgo]

what happens after I appeal?

If the appeal is successful the penalty fare will be cancelled and only the outstanding fare is legally due.

 

[30907]

what happens after I appeal?

If it succeeds - and I think you may have to be persistent (we haven't heard back about the case Furlong has linked to) then you will have saved £51 and that will be the end of it.

If you pay the £53.60 that will also be the end of it.

 

[MotCO]

If it succeeds - and I think you may have to be persistent (we haven't heard back about the case Furlong has linked to) then you will have saved £51 and that will be the end of it.

If you pay the £53.60 that will also be the end of it.

And it should be a lesson learnt. In future, always buy a ticket. It looks as though you will 'get away with it' because of a technicality; next time you won't be so lucky, so don't let there be a next time - always buy a ticket.

 

[XPontheTrap]

And it should be a lesson learnt. In future, always buy a ticket. It looks as though you will 'get away with it' because of a technicality; next time you won't be so lucky, so don't let there be a next time - always buy a ticket.

Will do

Is this a good appeal?


Dear member of panel,

Under Regulation 16(1)(a) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018:

The penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of the regulations for the following reasons:

In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—

(a)£100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b)if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

The penalty notice issued to me for my jounrney from WallkerGate to Monument. The terms of giving penalty fares clearly states it's 100£ plus the price of the full single fare applicable or if paid before the end of the period of 21 begining with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, 50£ plus the price of the full single fare appplicable. Which means based on this regulation I would have been charged 50£ plus the full single fare applicable which means I would have to pay 50£ plus the Adult Single fare Ticket which is 2.60.

However I was charged with 3.60 which does not go in accordance with the requirements of regulation because:

the fare charged exceeded the amount permitted to be charged under those Regulations because it was £50 plus the full single fare for a Adult for a journey from WalkerGate to Monument see The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 (Amendment of Regulation 9)

The National Rail Conditions of Travel clearly states the following;
(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b) if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

 

[MotCO]

Will do

Is this a good appeal?


Dear Member of Panel,

Ref No : xxxxxx I I have received a Penalty Fare for a journey I undertook between WalkerGate and Monument on xxxxx 2023, which I wish to appeal against.

The penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of the regulations for the following reasons:

Regulation 16(1)(a) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 states that


"In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—

(a)£100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b)if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

The penalty notice issued to me for my journey from WallkerGate to Monument was for £103.60, reducing to £53.60 for prompt payment. The terms of giving penalty fares clearly states it's £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable or if paid before the end of the period of 21 begining with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare appplicable. Which means based on this regulation I should have been charged £100 plus the full single fare applicable which is a total of £102.60.

However I was charged with £100 plus £3.60 which does not go in accordance with the requirements of regulation. I therefore request that this Penalty Fare is withdrawn. Yours sincerely, xxxx

I think that it covers all the bases, but it may need a bit of tidying up. I have suggested some changes to your text in red text.

 

[clagmonster]

I would delete the section about the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Your journey was on the Tyne and Wear Metro, which is not a National Rail service.

I would delete the section about the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Your journey was on the Tyne and Wear Metro, which is not a National Rail service.

You could replace the NRCOT paragraphs with the following:
The Metro section of the Nexus website states:
A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable.

Penalty Fares | nexus.org.uk

A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journe

www.nexus.org.uk

In this case, the full single fare from Walkergate (Zone A) to Monument (Zone A) is £2.60, so the penalty fare should have been £102.60, or £52.60 if paid within 21 days.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In this case, the full single fare from Walkergate (Zone A) to Monument (Zone A) is £2.60, so the penalty fare should have been £102.60, or £50.60 if paid within 21 days.

Surely £52.60 should be the appropriate (correct) amount for prompt payment?

 

[clagmonster]

Surely £52.60 should be the appropriate (correct) amount for prompt payment?

Agreed. I am an incompetent buffoon. Post to shortly be edited.