Penalty fare on East Midland train

[heroconan]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, hope I can get some help from you

On 14th May I planned to travel on the 8:55am East Midland train from London - Sheffield. The ticket I held was an onliine advanced ticket which cost £22 and was non-refundable and non-changeable.

Due to some personal reasons I missed that train and boarded on a later one at 9:55. When the ticket inspector came over I explained the situation and asked to buy a full-price ticket on board. I was told there was no such option and was given a penalty ticket of £140 which was twice the "normal fare" between London and the first stop, Leicester (the Anytime ticket price for this part of journey was £70). I paid £31 for the onward journey between Leicester and Sheffield as well.

I got very confused as when I looked at the Penalty rules (https://ircas.co.uk/documents.shtml). The document "SRA – Penalty Fare Rules" says:

An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

And when I checked the condition 12 I found this
12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)



Now I am very confused what I should get charged - the excess fare, or twice the single fare?

Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[Lampshade]

I'm afraid in this case the ticket inspector was right. The excess rule applies when for example, you're using an off peak ticket on a peak train, on the wrong route or a railcard discount below the minimum fare before 1000. When an Advance ticket is used on the wrong train, it's treated as having no ticket at all.

 

[Mike395]

You were unlucky and got a guard that did things exactly by the book it seems (this is one reason I do not like PF schemes) - in future situations like this, I'd recommend speaking to the EMT information desk on the St Pancras concourse and explaining the situation, as I find them quite helpful (or have the couple of times I've had to speak to them). No guarantees but better than boarding with 'no ticket' by their (in my opinion, illegal, but thats another point) rules.

 

[Flamingo]

T&C of the discounted tickets. Don't like them, don't buy them.

 

[Anvil1984]

You were unlucky and got a guard that did things exactly by the book it seems (this is one reason I do not like PF schemes) - in future situations like this, I'd recommend speaking to the EMT information desk on the St Pancras concourse and explaining the situation, as I find them quite helpful (or have the couple of times I've had to speak to them). No guarantees but better than boarding with 'no ticket' by their (in my opinion, illegal, but thats another point) rules.

It would have been an RPI who dealt with it and not the guard as guards don't issue PFs. Also no offence to the OP but it irritates me when someone knows they are getting on a train with a ticket they know is invalid and doesnt bother consulting the ticket office and just chances it, even worse when they bypass the ticket office and then myself or whoevers doing tickets then hope for the best. Im sorry but the RPI was correct in his actions and I echo Flamingos comment

 

[YorkshireBear]

T&C of the discounted tickets. Don't like them, don't buy them.

Think that is a little harsh and unhelpful. The OP did not complain he asked if he had read the rules right and asked for advice not how to complain to EMT.

To the OP-

In future make yourself aware to the guard first because more often than not they will be understanding and realise your not trying to ride on an invalid ticket. They may only sell you a ticket but it wont be a penalty fare it will just be the fare. Failing that just ask someone at one of the varying desks around stations.

I learnt the hard way too!

 

[Flamingo]

That wasn't specifically directed to the OP, more at MikeW's post and "boarding with 'no ticket' by their (in my opinion, illegal, but thats another point) rules" comment prior to mine.

However, the OP got on the train knowing they had not got a valid ticket (by their own admission), and in a PF area, then the risk is that a PF will be issued.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That wasn't specifically directed to the OP, more at MikeW's post and "boarding with 'no ticket' by their (in my opinion, illegal, but thats another point) rules" comment prior to mine.

However, the OP got on the train knowing they had not got a valid ticket (by their own admission), and in a PF area, then the risk is that a PF will be issued.

Fair play. Sorry i thought otherwise.

Agree, thats why i suggest mentioning it to someone first so they can either let you off or issue you with a valid ticket but nto penalty fare.

 

[Mike395]

T&C of the discounted tickets. Don't like them, don't buy them.

Fair point

I admittedly was in a bit of a rush earlier when I wrote the reply, and the tone of it wasnt exactly as I intended. What I meant by the illegal-ness was more aimed at the idea of a PF scheme generally (I think there are better alternatives in pretty much every situation), rather than the idea of Advance tickets. I do agree that someone who doesn't approach station staff or the guard deserves the book to be thrown at them in the OP's scenario, just I think the full open single would be a better deterrent than a PF in this case, as the PF is much more likely to put the passenger off travelling in future

 

[EM2]

My curiosity is piqued as to how the OP was able to get through the barriers at St. Pancras? I would have thought an Advance would not open the gates once the booked train had departed.

 

[Mike395]

My curiosity is piqued as to how the OP was able to get through the barriers at St. Pancras? I would have thought an Advance would not open the gates once the booked train had departed.

I could be wrong, but could it be that Advance tickets only have the day of validity coded on the magnetic strip?

 

[Lampshade]

I could be wrong, but could it be that Advance tickets only have the day of validity coded on the magnetic strip?

Yes, barriers treat them as ordinary singles.

 

[Flamingo]

The responsibility for checking it is the correct train lies with the passenger, as they are the one in possession of the reservation slip.

 

[Asian Demon]

I have to say that knowingly boarding a service you know your ticket is not valid for and indeed having time to go to the booking office to try and sort it out having missed your original journey means I have no sympathy for the OP whatsoever. The ticket inspector/RPI did the right thing and if the OP has any sense he'll know better for the future not to do something so foolish.

 

[sheff1]

The responsibility for checking it is the correct train lies with the passenger, as they are the one in possession of the reservation slip.

Of course, and here the OP knew they were on the wrong train.

It is the barrier question which I find more interesting. The barriers apparently accept tickets which are not valid. Prior to the barriers being introduced a manual check was usually made at St Pancras and people with an advance ticket for another train would be refused entry and referred to the booking office to buy a new ticket.

EMT (and others) always claim barriers prevent/reduce fare evasion, but in this case if no on train check had been made, which is vey common in my experience of this route, the OP would not have been found out - no barriers at Sheffield, and even if they were going to Derby/Leicester which are barriered, presumably the ticket would have been accepted anyway in the same way as it was at St Pancras.

 

[heroconan]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your useful input. It seems the penalty amount was correct and I have decided to pay it immediately and not to appeal.

Lesson well learnt!

 

[clagmonster]

And when I checked the condition 12 I found this
12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)

The NRCoC then go on to say:
"(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
Advance tickets are such an example of discounted ticket, so condition 4 allows a PF to be charged.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I paid £31 for the onward journey between Leicester and Sheffield as well.

That's the only bit I'm not sure about - the off-peak single between Leicester and Sheffield is valid on any train departing Leicester after 09:00 and only costs £22.50. It would be my understanding that if you bought the onward Leicester-Sheffield ticket from the guard before the train reached Leicester you should only be charged the off-peak single rather than the anytime single, which costs £31 as you say (or indeed be allowed to split at Derby for two off-peak day singles for a saving of another few pounds). Maybe someone else can comment on this?

 

[bb21]

That's the only bit I'm not sure about - the off-peak single between Leicester and Sheffield is valid on any train departing Leicester after 09:00 and only costs £22.50. It would be my understanding that if you bought the onward Leicester-Sheffield ticket from the guard before the train reached Leicester you should only be charged the off-peak single rather than the anytime single, which costs £31 as you say (or indeed be allowed to split at Derby for two off-peak day singles for a saving of another few pounds). Maybe someone else can comment on this?

I agree. I think the OP should be requesting a refund from EMT for the amount overcharged.

 

[Flamingo]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your useful input. It seems the penalty amount was correct and I have decided to pay it immediately and not to appeal.

Lesson well learnt!

Smart move. Hope your next journey goes better

 

[networkrail1]

I was at Wymondham [WMD] yesterday (MNR).

When i got back to the mainline, a middle aged lady came up to me and asked me if the next train goes to Grantham [GRA], as she is booked on it, i said yes it it (as it was the same train i was getting).

However then she hit me with a bombshell, she said will her reservation still be valid even though she is getting on at WMD and not Norwich [NRW], so i asked her could i see her ticket, she showed me and it was an advance from NRW to GRA on the service that i was getting on at WMD.

I told her that because she has not got on at the start station she will be charged the full fare to GRA, so there i was trying to be helpful only then to get a total ear bashing off her, how dare they do that i'm getting on at a station after my start station, as long as you don't tell the guard then they wont know, if i get asked to pay extra i will refuse i am not going to pay extra when i already have a valid ticket it is totally stupid.

The train finally pulled in and i got on and stood in the vestibule while the woman went and sat down, never knew what happened but i do know the guard was the most beautiful lady guard i have ever seen.

It just annoyed me that here i was trying to help a customer with a bit of advise and all i get in return is a gob full and told that the rules are crap. :-x

PLEASE NOTE this is no way in connection with the OP it just happened so i thought i would share sorry.

Key for non railstaff :-

WMD - Wymondham.
NRW - Norwich.
GRA - Grantham.
MNR - Mid Norfolk Railway.

 

[Prodigy]

Just a quick question. If someone were to book a train from say Glasgow Central, to Manchester, would they be at fault if they could not make it to the Glasgow Central stop and instead boarded at a further stop i.e Edinburgh?

 

[bb21]

Just a quick question. If someone were to book a train from say Glasgow Central, to Manchester, would they be at fault if they could not make it to the Glasgow Central stop and instead boarded at a further stop i.e Edinburgh?

If it's an Advance ticket then technically the ticket is not valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It just annoyed me that here i was trying to help a customer with a bit of advise and all i get in return is a gob full and told that the rules are crap. :-x

She probably thought that you worked for XC, seeing that you were more knowledgeable than the general travelling public about fares matters.

I'm not surprised that she found it stupid, because frankly the rules do seem a little silly (my opinion so don't shoot me). I'm sure that she didn't mean to have a go at you personally, more likely a general rant.

 

[networkrail1]

She probably thought that you worked for XC, seeing that you were more knowledgeable than the general travelling public about fares matters.

I'm not surprised that she found it stupid, because frankly the rules do seem a little silly (my opinion so don't shoot me). I'm sure that she didn't mean to have a go at you personally, more likely a general rant.

XC lol sorry it was a East Midlands trains train and i dont believe XC use that route only EMT and NXEA.

Plus i was in full Network rail work gear so i think she must have seen that .

All the best.

Simon

 

[island]

That's the only bit I'm not sure about - the off-peak single between Leicester and Sheffield is valid on any train departing Leicester after 09:00 and only costs £22.50. It would be my understanding that if you bought the onward Leicester-Sheffield ticket from the guard before the train reached Leicester you should only be charged the off-peak single rather than the anytime single, which costs £31 as you say (or indeed be allowed to split at Derby for two off-peak day singles for a saving of another few pounds). Maybe someone else can comment on this?

I agree. I think the OP should be requesting a refund from EMT for the amount overcharged.

Can't find the rules at the moment, but I remember reading that if a person is charged a PF and wants to continue beyond the next stop, they must pay the Anytime fare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As I understand it, they can remain on the train for the Anytime fare, or alight the train at the next stop and buy a new ticket from the ticket office, unless the next station is unmanned.

 

[MichaelAMW]

As I understand it, they can remain on the train for the Anytime fare, or alight the train at the next stop and buy a new ticket from the ticket office, unless the next station is unmanned.

That seems rather mean minded. After all, they are buying in advance of the part of the journey covered by the extra ticket.

 

[cuccir]

That seems rather mean minded. After all, they are buying in advance of the part of the journey covered by the extra ticket.

Equally, however, unless there is some sort of timetabled pause at the station, they're not getting to the station in time to buy their tickets before the train leaves, or collect tickets bought in advance. So they are, in effect, buying on the train.

 

[AlexS]

XC lol sorry it was a East Midlands trains train and i dont believe XC use that route only EMT and NXEA.

Plus i was in full Network rail work gear so i think she must have seen that .

All the best.

Simon

You want to be careful giving out advice like that if you're in work clothes then Simon - never give detailed advice about things you're not technically qualified to advise on (no matter how well you might know them) to people while wearing a uniform or other kind of link to an organisation. I've lost count of people who have had a kicking from their employers over that kind of thing when someone has later made a complaint because the information was wrong or similar!

A polite 'I don't know, but if you ask such and such, they might be able to help' is usually best I find!

 

[networkrail1]

You want to be careful giving out advice like that if you're in work clothes then Simon - never give detailed advice about things you're not technically qualified to advise on (no matter how well you might know them) to people while wearing a uniform or other kind of link to an organisation. I've lost count of people who have had a kicking from their employers over that kind of thing when someone has later made a complaint because the information was wrong or similar!

A polite 'I don't know, but if you ask such and such, they might be able to help' is usually best I find!

Thank you AlexS i will take your words into consideration if it ever happens again.

All the best.

Simon.