iphone76
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Penalty Fare - Oyster journey STANDING in first class - appealable?
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Yes, Neil, the signs showing the limit of first class were on the internal sliding doors, not on the external doors. And on some of the 321 diagrams the space was used and needed, especially the 1654 Tring. But I digress.
If the OP knows they were in first class and, perhaps with hindsight, thinks they might actually have been seated then they'll need to let it go. If they genuinely know they weren't in first class it might be worth fighting. But remember that telling porkie pies can be more expensive than the £29 PF.
If the OP knows they were in first class and, perhaps with hindsight, thinks they might actually have been seated then they'll need to let it go. If they genuinely know they weren't in first class it might be worth fighting. But remember that telling porkie pies can be more expensive than the £29 PF.
If the OP is adament of their innocence, perhaps there is CCTV that can be pulled from the train if an appeal is lodged early enough? I still don't hold much hope of a successful appeal though
For any appeal against a Penalty Fare, first be clear what the grounds for appeal are.
For example, in outline, the rules specify that a PF may be charged to any person leaving (6.1) a penalty fares train who fails to produce a valid ticket (6.2) and that a ticket is not valid if it is not valid for the class of travel used on that journey (6.7). The appeal might then consist of evidence to support a claim that the class of travel used was, in fact, standard class and that as a valid standard class ticket was produced, under the rules, the authorised collector had no authority to issue the PF.
For example, in outline, the rules specify that a PF may be charged to any person leaving (6.1) a penalty fares train who fails to produce a valid ticket (6.2) and that a ticket is not valid if it is not valid for the class of travel used on that journey (6.7). The appeal might then consist of evidence to support a claim that the class of travel used was, in fact, standard class and that as a valid standard class ticket was produced, under the rules, the authorised collector had no authority to issue the PF.
gray1404
Established Member
Would the OP be able to get a refund of the charge to their Oyster as if they pay the PF, that is actually their fare paid. (to the next station at which the train stops, or indeed like in this case, where they got off the train).
I'm a little confused by the focus on what the RPI could and could not have seen/proven. The op has admitted standing in the first class section for the duration of their journey, and has therefore committed an offence, and the penalty fare appears to be valid.
There is certainly no harm in appealing the op feels the signage was not clear, but as others have said, the fact 40 other people was not stopped is not valid grounds to appeal.
There is certainly no harm in appealing the op feels the signage was not clear, but as others have said, the fact 40 other people was not stopped is not valid grounds to appeal.
As I read it there is some debate as to whether the area by the doors is "in first class" or not.
It was all a bit of a blur, but the two of them were stood outside the doors and basically blocked the three of us as we tried to exit and just said 'Can I see your tickets please?' to which we replied 'We've just used our Oyster cards'. They then said 'Could I see these please?', when we got them out they snatched them away from us and immediately walked away to near the ticket office and started asking for our details and were printing out Penalty Fare Notices before much else could be said.
They didn't ask us whether we were in First Class, simply told us that's what we were being fined for. As I mentioned in my original post, when we first said a) we were unaware and b) why were only the 3 of us singled out among 50 others, I was just ignored completely. I know b) may be seen as irrelevant, but that's essentially the conversation that took place.
So the trains would have been a different colour, looked significantly different on the inside. Exactly like when a EMT 158 turns up on a Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham Service, rather than a 156. And being assigned to a different platform is not unusual at at the weekends, when there can be different service patterns and more engineering works to disrupt platform allocation.
As I said, none of this is a reason to be Penalty Fared, but it does all weaken a defence based on "I didn't notice anything different". Given that all TfL trains always use platforms 3 & 4, the novelty of going down a different set of stairs would be enough to shake a regular commuter out of autopilot mode.
Based on the OPs journey and where he was stopped by Revenue Inspectors shouldn't any complaint be addressed to London Travelwatch?
Just as an aside to this - you never know who was being conveyed in First class also - who may have reported you on there.
Been ages since Ive been on one like so cant remember if it is just the one section then the doors or if there is another one after the doors like they used to have on Silverlink I seem to remember back in the day
gray1404
Established Member
I'm interested to know more about this..... Who could have reported them maybe?
Im surprised you have asked such a question but you know, people who are off duty or have just booked off or who may or may not have the authorisation to ask for a ticket
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gray1404
Established Member
Intersting. Thanks Clip.
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Used to happen a lot, generally a manager with a pass would report it to either the Conductor or RPI's if it was DOO.
There are a lot of posters up at stations now encouraging members of the public to report things to BTP via SMS, including fare evasion. The SMS service has existed for some time, but in my experience only NXEA ever had the code published on the route maps/information signs on its trains.
I don't know if AGA still has them (never spotted any) and I've never seen the code on any other TOC.
I don't know if AGA still has them (never spotted any) and I've never seen the code on any other TOC.
CharlieSpotted
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It has definitely been advertised on London Midland 323s (and 150s?) in the past. I think I've seen it on ATW services around here too.
gray1404
Established Member
Then again, just because someone is stood up in first class doesn't mean they don't hold a first class ticket. Remember, this train was full and standing so no one will have known that the OP had a standard class ticket.
Maybe someone got on the train with them and saw them touch in with their oyster and then move to first class. There's a world of possibilities out there for how they were the only ones who were stopped.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Depending on where they get on, it generally does though. You can't get first class tickets on Oyster and the vast majority of people in the Oyster area are using Oyster. "He got on at Brentwood and sat in first class" is enough to merit a check; chances are they don't have a first class ticket.
It is a known problem within the Oyster area, at places like Watford Junction, people piling into first class when you know fine well they don't have a ticket for it, and I have to say it's good to see the TOCs clamping down on it.
There were a couple of interlopers in 1st class for part of the journey tonight. I am sure that a certain type of interloper is involved with non league or amateur football.
I had some involvement with non league football, luckily I stopped before I wasted too much of my life.
Regarding the GA text a dodger line. I have never used it, as in the situation tonight the people to be reported left after 15 minutes. GA do not have a flying squad standing by to act.
I had some involvement with non league football, luckily I stopped before I wasted too much of my life.
Regarding the GA text a dodger line. I have never used it, as in the situation tonight the people to be reported left after 15 minutes. GA do not have a flying squad standing by to act.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Useful intelligence can sometimes only emerge after a number of reports are received over a period of time. It's the patterns of behaviour which are generated in this way which often result in those surprisingly unexpected 'stings' at stations where abuse is regular.
Please do report what you find.
grumblingalong
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Just for clarification regards some of the details on this thread. Southend services are exclusively 321 operated.
Remember AGA operate many subclasses of 321, the ex LM versions were modified upon arrival to have first class only directly behind the cab, there are no exit doors in first class so there would be no need to walk through. The section has a manual sliding door and every seat *should* have an antimacassar, so it's well signed.
No vestibule area on an AGA 321 is considered to be first class.
Anyone who sits in first class on a standard ticket on an ex-LM 321 is a bit dim as they didn't change the seats in the bit they declassified, just removed the first class markings.
Remember AGA operate many subclasses of 321, the ex LM versions were modified upon arrival to have first class only directly behind the cab, there are no exit doors in first class so there would be no need to walk through. The section has a manual sliding door and every seat *should* have an antimacassar, so it's well signed.
No vestibule area on an AGA 321 is considered to be first class.
Anyone who sits in first class on a standard ticket on an ex-LM 321 is a bit dim as they didn't change the seats in the bit they declassified, just removed the first class markings.
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