Pending paint warranty claim against Hitachi…?

[O L Leigh]

Or is it just 802005 that has big areas of exposed metal around the passenger doors?

 

[fgwrich]

Or is it just 802005 that has big areas of exposed metal around the passenger doors?

I've noticed quite a few of the GW Fleet either has flaking paint around the end of the vehicles or signs of bubbling coming from underneath. It's not a good look already.

 

[O L Leigh]

Just wondering if all the affected units are Pistoia-built and whether we’re seeing another example of the now legendary AnsaldoBreda build quality.

 

[Avidfan]

Just wondering if all the affected units are Pistoia-built and whether we’re seeing another example of the now legendary AnsaldoBreda build quality.

Doesn't matter, says Hitachi on the "tin". It's their brand that's besmirched

 

[Helvellyn]

Some of the LNER ones are flaking on the ends as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Warranty issues with GW/LNER 800/801s are Hitachi's problem - they are owned by Agility Trains not the TOCs.
802s and other TOC/Rosco-owned AT300s will be different.

 

[Efini92]

Or is it just 802005 that has big areas of exposed metal around the passenger doors?

Maybe they were investigating more cracks

 

[43096]

Warranty issues with GW/LNER 800/801s are Hitachi's problem - they are owned by Agility Trains not the TOCs.
802s and other TOC/Rosco-owned AT300s will be different.

None of the TOCs own their AT300s, they are all leased. And regardless of who owns them, it's still Hitachi's problem - there is normally a paint warranty in new train contracts that is valid for many years.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s nothing to do with cracks - it’s just the paint job not lasting. Unfortunately not uncommon with Hitachi, wherever they are built.

 

[Energy]

Maybe they were investigating more cracks

Not if its by the doors, the cracking was around the bogies.

It’s nothing to do with cracks - it’s just the paint job not lasting. Unfortunately not uncommon with Hitachi, wherever they are built.

Oh. Wonder if it also affects the Shinkansens Hitachi has made.

 

[D6130]

IIRC, were the GWR 802s not built by Hitachi's (ex-Ansaldo-Breda) plant in Pistoia, Italy?

 

[Russel]

IIRC, were the GWR 802s not built by Hitachi's (ex-Ansaldo-Breda) plant in Pistoia, Italy?

The legendary Ansaldo-Breda who built the former Midland Metro trams with wiring I've heard described as spaghetti.

 

[AM9]

All this relating failures to the Pistoia plant's past issues.is irrelevant. It's a Hitachi design, under Hitachi manufacturing control. I doubt that any of the Ansaldi-Breda culture remains there.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Exactly. It seems to be a specification issue, although getting Hitachi to admit it is another matter!

 

[northernbelle]

I don't believe it is a paint issue - it looks more like metal corrosion under the paint leading to it flaking off. The fact that the vinyl is also bubbling in the same areas on the 800/0s would suggest this.

 

[O L Leigh]

All this relating failures to the Pistoia plant's past issues.is irrelevant. It's a Hitachi design, under Hitachi manufacturing control. I doubt that any of the Ansaldi-Breda culture remains there.

All the signs so far seem to suggest that the plant has turned a corner, no doubt helped by them building someone else’s design. That said, it takes more than simply changing the name over the door to address any underlying issues with the culture within the workforce.

I don't believe it is a paint issue - it looks more like metal corrosion under the paint leading to it flaking off. The fact that the vinyl is also bubbling in the same areas on the 800/0s would suggest this.

But the vinyls are stuck to the paint not the metal, so if the paint is coming away from the body it will take the vinyl with it. I would also tentatively suggest that any dulling of the metal is due to exposure to the air as a consequence of the paint coming off rather than being the cause of it. Given that the majority of problems reported so far are around door apertures and coach ends, it seems likely that Hitachi have had problems bonding the paint to the body shells and that it is under some stress due to the curvature at those points causing it to lift.

 

[Noddy]

But the vinyls are stuck to the paint not the metal, so if the paint is coming away from the body it will take the vinyl with it. I would also tentatively suggest that any dulling of the metal is due to exposure to the air as a consequence of the paint coming off rather than being the cause of it. Given that the majority of problems reported so far are around door apertures and coach ends, it seems likely that Hitachi have had problems bonding the paint to the body shells and that it is under some stress due to the curvature at those points causing it to lift.

Or it’s caused by the trains brushing (or hitting at speed) vegetation on the lineside, causing small amounts of damage to the paint, allowing air and water in, which in turn is causing the metal corrosion, and this is causing the larger flaking issues….

 

[Taunton]

Or it’s caused by the trains brushing (or hitting at speed) vegetation on the lineside, causing small amounts of damage to the paint, allowing air and water in, which in turn is causing the metal corrosion, and this is causing the larger flaking issues….

The Paddington line ran painted HSTs for years with uncleared lineside vegetation brushing the sides of trains, as discussed here previously - look at the Bath fatality, or the Cotswold single line stretches with bushes and trees brushing both sides of the train at once. Yet they didn't get such damage.

 

[D6130]

Or it’s caused by the trains brushing (or hitting at speed) vegetation on the lineside, causing small amounts of damage to the paint, allowing air and water in, which in turn is causing the metal corrosion, and this is causing the larger flaking issues….

In that case should the TOC be claiming from Network rail for the damage?

 

[VP185]

I suspect it’s caused by striking lineside vegetation. All the sets suffering from this kind of damage all have it in roughly the same position on the door apertures, maybe not helped by length of the vehicles?

 

[Noddy]

The Paddington line ran painted HSTs for years with uncleared lineside vegetation brushing the sides of trains, as discussed here previously - look at the Bath fatality, or the Cotswold single line stretches with bushes and trees brushing both sides of the train at once. Yet they didn't get such damage.

I don’t doubt that. I suspect the Hitachi trains have both paint that is more susceptible to damage, and metal that is more susceptible to this type of surface corrosion. But it’s the vegetation that causes the initial damage.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It isn’t corrosion - it’s the bond between paint and body being disturbed and therefore the paintwork starts to lift.

 

[SHD]

I don't believe it is a paint issue - it looks more like metal corrosion under the paint leading to it flaking off. The fact that the vinyl is also bubbling in the same areas on the 800/0s would suggest this.

Aren't 802s aluminium-bodied trains?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Exactly. I will repeat, it isn’t corrosion.

 

[pdeaves]

All the sets suffering from this kind of damage all have it in roughly the same position on the door apertures

Maybe indicative of where the body flexes slightly, thus cracking the paint that doesn't flex by the same amount?

 

[northernbelle]

I am reasonably well versed in what happens to paint finishes on vehicles. If there's an issue with paint adhering to the bodyside it will usually chip or flake off. It appears to be bubbling on the 80x fleet which is why I'm sure it's corrosion related as it indicates a chemical reaction of some sort.

Aluminium and steel don't mix well - you get a chemical reaction called galvanic corrosion where the electrons in the aluminium transfer to the neighbouring steel and the aluminium becomes more susceptible to corrosion.

If you look at where the paintwork tends to bubble on other rolling stock, it's where aluminium and steel are in close proximity; HSTs have aluminium window frames next to steel bodywork and they corrode. 158s have aluminium bodyshells and the bubbling on those occurs next to steel fittings - window vents, frames and yaw dampers for example.

It also occurs on vehicles (buses as well) where aluminium panels are in close proximity to steel framework.

I don't think repairing the paintwork will resolve the root cause of the problem here.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Agreed, it will require a bit more than paint to fix this if there has been any electrolytic reaction, such as between steel and aluminium.

I own a 53 year old series 2a lightweight Land Rover and where the steel front bulkhead meets the aluminium is an area where the paintwork has to be kept in good order because if you don’t and you get water in there, it can get expensive. The lower part gets salt too so about every 15 to 20 years it usually needs a bit of welding somewhere down there. I have to use an etch primer on the aluminium side panels if I do any painting because it won’t adhere otherwise.

If it is just water ingress you can get bubbling beneath the vinyl on an 800 but the trick is not to allow the water to get between the paint/vinyl seal and the aluminium in the first place, either by picking a durable specification for the paint/vinyl (with the right surface thickness) or by regular maintenance of the vulnerable areas.

 

[Noddy]

Glad we’re in agreement it is some form of corrosion! Various type discussed here https://www.alumeco.com/knowledge-technique/general/corrosion-of-aluminium-surfaces/

Going back to the original question of warranty claim. I think it will depended on the IET spec for the 800s and whether Hitachi met it (I guess if they did there can’t be a claim). For the 802s and later I guess it will be what the small print of the paint warranty includes or excludes!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I am reasonably well versed in what happens to paint finishes on vehicles. If there's an issue with paint adhering to the bodyside it will usually chip or flake off. It appears to be bubbling on the 80x fleet which is why I'm sure it's corrosion related as it indicates a chemical reaction of some sort.

Aluminium and steel don't mix well - you get a chemical reaction called galvanic corrosion where the electrons in the aluminium transfer to the neighbouring steel and the aluminium becomes more susceptible to corrosion.

If you look at where the paintwork tends to bubble on other rolling stock, it's where aluminium and steel are in close proximity; HSTs have aluminium window frames next to steel bodywork and they corrode. 158s have aluminium bodyshells and the bubbling on those occurs next to steel fittings - window vents, frames and yaw dampers for example.

It also occurs on vehicles (buses as well) well aluminium panels are in close proximity to steel framework.

Yes. Just for the science Al is -1.67 volts with respect to Hydrogen potential (assigned 0 by convention). Fe is -0.44 volts. So a driving voltage of 1.23 volts which is quite high. A bimetallic couple (galvanic corrosion) with corrosion almost designed into the system. Sure, you can get paint to adhere to metals - but not to corrosion products. Zinc and Aluminium are notoriously difficult. In the aircraft industry, they have to use Strontium Chromate pigment.

I don't think repairing the paintwork will resolve the root cause of the problem here.

I will reserve judgement, but I tend to agree with you.

 

[AM9]

I suspect it’s caused by striking lineside vegetation. All the sets suffering from this kind of damage all have it in roughly the same position on the door apertures, maybe not helped by length of the vehicles?

The length of the vehicles doesn't make any difference, - they are cleared for the routes that they use.