Pending trial from Thameslink

[sh7596]

Hi All,

I have an upcoming trial on May the 2nd and I need some advice if possible, i’ll try to summarise what has happened so far.

In August of last year I was travelling with my Mum from Horley - London using a zones 1-6 travel card, it was a ticket that i’d bought saying that I have a 26-30 railcard, but I actually was using my Mum’s National Railcard as we were travelling together. While my Mum was in the toilet, I was stopped by an inspector, I explained that I did have a railcard but not on me, but would be happy to pay the difference as I understand how it looks. She said don’t worry, took my details down and told me where I should submit the railcard details, I did this, not really realising that i’d even bought the ticket with the wrong railcard in the first place. About a month or so later, I received a letter asking me to submit the same statement, which I did and sent off. I received nothing else so thought the matter was fine and over with.

In January of this year I received a letter (essentially the same as the attachment) saying I had missed a court date and I had to pay over £400 in fines and fees. I am in thousands of pounds worth of debt and don’t have that to pay in a 6 day turnaround, but also I was confused because it said i’d missed the court date but I wasn’t actually aware of it. I rang a number and was told to do a statutory declaration, which I did on 27th of Feb at my local court, and pleaded not guilty to the offence.

I now have a trial on May 2nd, and I have no idea what to do or where I stand. Can anyone please offer me any advice, i’ve never been in any legal trouble before and this is keeping me up at night with stress.

Thanks in advance!

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly, is it your intent to plead not guilty? If so, on what grounds?

Have you asked to settle the matter privately with the train company?

 

[sh7596]

Firstly, is it your intent to plead not guilty? If so, on what grounds?

Have you asked to settle the matter privately with the train company?

To be honest, I only plead not guilty because I wasn’t aware of what else to do, and was worried about the implications of pleading guilty.

Secondly, no but only because I wasn’t sure if it’s too far gone to do that now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you (or did you at the time of travel) have a 26-30 Railcard? They may drop it if you can provide evidence of having one, though probably an admin cost will apply for the work done so far.

 

[Haywain]

You need to urgently contact Thameslink (GTR) to see if they will be willing to settle the matter prior to the court case. In doing so they will almost certainly want you to pay £148.20 - the fare and costs - but you would avoid the fine, so it is worth the effort.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi All,

I have an upcoming trial on May the 2nd and I need some advice if possible, i’ll try to summarise what has happened so far.

In August of last year I was travelling with my Mum from Horley - London using a zones 1-6 travel card, it was a ticket that i’d bought saying that I have a 26-30 railcard, but I actually was using my Mum’s National Railcard as we were travelling together. While my Mum was in the toilet, I was stopped by an inspector, I explained that I did have a railcard but not on me, but would be happy to pay the difference as I understand how it looks. She said don’t worry, took my details down and told me where I should submit the railcard details, I did this, not really realising that i’d even bought the ticket with the wrong railcard in the first place. About a month or so later, I received a letter asking me to submit the same statement, which I did and sent off. I received nothing else so thought the matter was fine and over with.

In January of this year I received a letter (essentially the same as the attachment) saying I had missed a court date and I had to pay over £400 in fines and fees. I am in thousands of pounds worth of debt and don’t have that to pay in a 6 day turnaround, but also I was confused because it said i’d missed the court date but I wasn’t actually aware of it. I rang a number and was told to do a statutory declaration, which I did on 27th of Feb at my local court, and pleaded not guilty to the offence.

I now have a trial on May 2nd, and I have no idea what to do or where I stand. Can anyone please offer me any advice, i’ve never been in any legal trouble before and this is keeping me up at night with stress.

Thanks in advance!

Hi - you will get some good advice on here as to how to handle this from thsi point on - s stick with your threat and ask the questions you need to know and ask for advice on the best way forward given where things have got to.

I suspect that with help from this forum at an earlier stage you could probably have avoided this getting to the point it has done, but given where things are now I suspect it's a case of trying to minimise the damage and see if you can 'rewind the clock' a bit to get a Settlement out of court.

Haywains's advice is your starting point

People are going to ask if you can upload anonymised copies of any other relevant paperwork.

However, if it did go to court (bearing in mind what you said about your debts and funds) - any court fine can be paid in instalments I believe. Buy the court fine will be higher than an out of court settlement. An out of court settlement needs to be paid in full if offered by the Train Company (GTR/Thameslink?)

Incidentally what happened to initial paperwork from them about this matter (from the railway company) did you not receive it? did you try to reply to it? did you just ignore it hoping problem would go away?

 

[furlong]

Incidentally what happened to initial paperwork from them about this matter (from the railway company) did you not receive it? did you try to reply to it? did you just ignore it hoping problem would go away?

Don't answer that. It is not relevant.

But please do fill in some of the other details, such as which type of railcard your mum had.

 

[Haywain]

Don't answer that. It is not relevant.

Actually, it could be. If the OP has any paperwork it will contain contact details for GTR and a case reference number which will assist in getting the matter looked at promptly.

 

[sh7596]

Don't answer that. It is not relevant.

But please do fill in some of the other details, such as which type of railcard your mum had.

She has a Network Railcard, which as far as she has told me can be used for her and up to 3 other travellers at the same time

Actually, it could be. If the OP has any paperwork it will contain contact details for GTR and a case reference number which will assist in getting the matter looked at promptly.

I’ll have a look for any of the original paperwork, i’m not at home so only had the email to hand at the moment but i’ll check!

You need to urgently contact Thameslink (GTR) to see if they will be willing to settle the matter prior to the court case. In doing so they will almost certainly want you to pay £148.20 - the fare and costs - but you would avoid the fine, so it is worth the effort.

I’ll see if I can find the contact details for them, thank you!

Do you (or did you at the time of travel) have a 26-30 Railcard? They may drop it if you can provide evidence of having one, though probably an admin cost will apply for the work done so far.

I have one now and did have one previously, however it was a physical card that I no longer have so unsure if I could prove it?

Hi - you will get some good advice on here as to how to handle this from thsi point on - s stick with your threat and ask the questions you need to know and ask for advice on the best way forward given where things have got to.

I suspect that with help from this forum at an earlier stage you could probably have avoided this getting to the point it has done, but given where things are now I suspect it's a case of trying to minimise the damage and see if you can 'rewind the clock' a bit to get a Settlement out of court.

Haywains's advice is your starting point

People are going to ask if you can upload anonymised copies of any other relevant paperwork.

However, if it did go to court (bearing in mind what you said about your debts and funds) - any court fine can be paid in instalments I believe. Buy the court fine will be higher than an out of court settlement. An out of court settlement needs to be paid in full if offered by the Train Company (GTR/Thameslink?)

Incidentally what happened to initial paperwork from them about this matter (from the railway company) did you not receive it? did you try to reply to it? did you just ignore it hoping problem would go away?

I’ll have a look for any of the original paperwork, and I don’t mind answering that the only paperwork I received to my address were the ones I mentioned above. I do now realise that had I come to this site earlier I may not have got into this situation, which is frustrating that I didn’t think to look!

 

[Haywain]

I’ll see if I can find the contact details for them, thank you!

Their email address is [email protected]

I have one now and did have one previously, however it was a physical card that I no longer have so unsure if I could prove it?

Did you have one at the time of this incident?

 

[sh7596]

Their email address is [email protected]

Did you have one at the time of this incident?

I did, and replaced with a digital copy about a week later so the same incident wouldn’t happen again

 

[Bletchleyite]

26-30s are not issued as physical cards.

 

[sh7596]

26-30s are not issued as physical cards.

Never? Potentially it was a 16-25 that was due to expire but I definitely had a valid railcard of the type that I had used, it just wasn’t the one I intended to travel with on that journey

 

[Haywain]

Never?

Never. So, when you submitted the railcard details, which railcard did you submit details of? If it was a Network Railcard in your mother's name that won't have been acceptable if you had a ticket with a 26-30 discount. You would really help yourself if you can find some solid evidence of which railcard you held at the time, that you could now provide to GTR.

 

[sh7596]

Never. So, when you submitted the railcard details, which railcard did you submit details of? If it was a Network Railcard in your mother's name that won't have been acceptable if you had a ticket with a 26-30 discount. You would really help yourself if you can find some solid evidence of which railcard you held at the time, that you could now provide to GTR.

The one I submitted was the National Railcard, which in all honesty was not the one I had bought the ticket with, I bought it with either 16-25/26-30 (whichever I had at the time), so I know i submitted the wrong one but I also had the one that applied, I’m aware i’ve made it much more complicated for myself

 

[furlong]

(A number of people do refer to a NETWORK railcard as a NATIONAL railcard but actually the terms mean different things. A NETWORK railcard is only valid in a particular area in and around South East England.)

It's going to be really important to establish WHICH railcards you can prove that you held at the time. If you still have your mum's ticket (as well as her railcard) that might turn out to be a useful option too.

But first can we establish whether or not the ONLY problem with the ticket was that you couldn't show the right railcard. Were there any day/time restrictions at the time this happened? What was the journey and what day and time so we can work this out? (Day of the week and whether or not it was a bank holiday if it was a Monday is enough, if you don't want to tell us the exact date.)

 

[sh7596]

(A number of people do refer to a NETWORK railcard as a NATIONAL railcard but actually the terms mean different things. A NETWORK railcard is only valid in a particular area in and around South East England.)

It's going to be really important to establish WHICH railcards you can prove that you held at the time. If you still have your mum's ticket (as well as her railcard) that might turn out to be a useful option too.

But first can we establish whether or not the ONLY problem with the ticket was that you couldn't show the right railcard. Were there any day/time restrictions at the time this happened? What was the journey and what day and time so we can work this out? (Day of the week and whether or not it was a bank holiday if it was a Monday is enough, if you don't want to tell us the exact date.)

i’ll ask her if she has the ticket still, but it was a national railcard, which I think was valid for our journey because we live in Surrey heading towards London. It was the 15/08, which is a Thursday. I think the only issue is that I didn’t show my railcard, that’s the reason the inspector asked me to submit it online.

 

[RJ]

Never? Potentially it was a 16-25 that was due to expire but I definitely had a valid railcard of the type that I had used, it just wasn’t the one I intended to travel with on that journey

It would be a good idea to get your story of events straight, because a few things don’t add up. Not just with this but apparently travelling with a Network Railcard holder who just so happens was nowhere to be seen during the extended interaction with the ticket inspector, allegedly receiving no paperwork through the post before a missed court appearance etc.

It sounds like the book is already being thrown at you, your only chance of mitigating the consequences is by being consistent and approaching GTR in the correct manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And why did you say you'd take the consequences rather than say "my mother is in the loo, she has the Railcard"? OK, it was the wrong one, but it's just an odd thing to say.

 

[furlong]

There are three ways forward here.
1) You find the right railcard valid at that time that matches the ticket and send it in, as you should have done originally.
2) You find the network railcard AND your mum's ticket, and show that your ticket was identical except for the different railcard - same price. You explain how each of the two tickets was purchased (i.e. why they weren't bought together). Then you might need to make extra statements to confirm all the conditions of that railcard were met i.e. signed statements that you were travelling together. In other words you prove the train company received the right amount of money, just with the wrong discount label on the ticket, and ask for discretion to be shown on that basis.
3) You admit that you either cannot find or never really had the right documentation for what you were doing, apologise and ask if they will settle with you out-of-court.

 

[sh7596]

It would be a good idea to get your story of events straight, because a few things don’t add up. Not just with this but apparently travelling with a Network Railcard holder who just so happens was nowhere to be seen during the extended interaction with the ticket inspector, allegedly receiving no paperwork through the post before a missed court appearance etc.

It sounds like the book is already being thrown at you, your only chance of mitigating the consequences is by being consistent and approaching GTR in the correct manner.

While I understand your point, I missed I think one piece of post, which I assume was over the christmas period as we missed a few Christmas cards as well. My Mum had her ticket checked in the next carriage on her return from the loo, and didn’t of my interaction at the time so didn’t think so say that it also applied to me. I can see that they’re obviously trying to throw the book, hence asking for any advice I can get. I understand I used the wrong railcard when purchasing the ticket, but i’m trying to understand what my next steps are so I don’t end up in any legal trouble.

There are three ways forward here.
1) You find the right railcard valid at that time that matches the ticket and send it in, as you should have done originally.
2) You find the network railcard AND your mum's ticket, and show that your ticket was identical except for the different railcard - same price. You explain how each of the two tickets was purchased (i.e. why they weren't bought together). Then you might need to make extra statements to confirm all the conditions of that railcard were met i.e. signed statements that you were travelling together. In other words you prove the train company received the right amount of money, just with the wrong discount label on the ticket, and ask for discretion to be shown on that basis.
3) You admit that you either cannot find or never really had the right documentation for what you were doing, apologise and ask if they will settle with you out-of-court.

Thank you for this, i’ll see if I can find my physical railcard and also will ask my Mum to see if she has the ticket she purchased, do you think a copy of a proof of purchase eg a bank statement would be sufficient or will I have to send the exact ticket?

I really appreciate your help

And why did you say you'd take the consequences rather than say "my mother is in the loo, she has the Railcard"? OK, it was the wrong one, but it's just an odd thing to say.

Because I was flustered and not really thinking, I did explain she had it but also understood that there was no way to prove that in that moment and hence said i’d pay the full fare.

 

[furlong]

It's a lot easier if you have the exact ticket. If you have the bank statement, then you need to go to your provider (bank/credit card company) to obtain the full transaction details (date, time, reference numbers) - some show all these details in internet banking, but others don't. If you bought it directly from the same train company, then you can give them those details and they'll be able to trace the ticket. Otherwise you'll need to go to the retailer yourself to get them to supply you with a copy of the receipt for the transaction showing what the ticket was.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Because I was flustered and not really thinking, I did explain she had it but also understood that there was no way to prove that in that moment and hence said i’d pay the full fare.

I guess one point is that, unless your mother had your railcard (which would be rather odd), any railcard she presented was not going to make ticket held valid. And that's even more true if the railcard on the ticket was a 26-30 one, as who lets their mother carry their phone around with them at that age?

So assuming the inspector clocked that, I can understand why they weren't particularly interested in the "mother angle" to the story, and may have made that clear to the OP.

 

[kkong]

Never? Potentially it was a 16-25 that was due to expire but I definitely had a valid railcard of the type that I had used, it just wasn’t the one I intended to travel with on that journey

How old were you on the date of travel (15 Aug 2023)?

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there any such thing as a 'National Railcard' as a side issue? I don't think there is

'National Rail' is a sort of brand name for all the different private train companies working together that provides the National Rail information website.

I appreciate it's all confusing for many passengers....

 

[Haywain]

Is there any such thing as a 'National Railcard' as a side issue? I don't think there is

Well, there are a number of national railcards but not a National Railcard.