Pendolinos in preservation?

[sprinterguy]

I thought the order of introduction was 220, 390, 221. But that's just from my rather shaky memory of the time. It's quite possible I'm wrong.

In terms of beginning test running and becoming operational that sounds about right, but I'm not sure about the order of introduction into squadron service.

 

[Bevan Price]

After they finish regular main line operation, it is possible that a few 390s & Voyagers may be taken over by charter operators. That is about their only chance of remaining operational.

Apart from the near impossibility of them being willing or able to afford overhead wiring, I can't think of any heritage line with platforms long enough for more than 5 or 6 coach lengths of a 390. And many lines are already short of storage space - just look at the amount of stock you see slowly decaying at some locations because they have insufficient covered storage space. So - maybe the NRM may take a couple of driving coaches & an intermediate coach or two - but for the rest - a one way trip to the razor blade factory in about 2040 is the probably fate.

 

[Kali]

I very much doubt that. It will still contain IPR that they (Alstom) will not want to part with.

If it was a decade away, maybe. The problem in 30 years time is more likely finding the original source ( and someone who understands it... ). I can't imagine Alstholm needing to protect a 40 year old piece of software once they don't have to support it - look at software from 1972, how much of that is still in use and needing protection?

 

[captainbigun]

If it was a decade away, maybe. The problem in 30 years time is more likely finding the original source ( and someone who understands it... ). I can't imagine Alstholm needing to protect a 40 year old piece of software once they don't have to support it - look at software from 1972, how much of that is still in use and needing protection?

I disagree, as I know that there is 1980s stuff that is still considered important IPR.

 

[AndyLandy]

I disagree, as I know that there is 1980s stuff that is still considered important IPR.

And it's not like Microsoft have released MS-DOS into the public domain, or are indeed ever likely to do so.

As someone who works in the IT industry, I have to say that it's rare indeed that any company would give up their IP rights to commercial software, no matter how old it is.

 

[Zoe]

As someone who works in the IT industry, I have to say that it's rare indeed that any company would give up their IP rights to commercial software, no matter how old it is.

Indeed, even rights for some ZX Spectrum software are still enforced.

 

[AndyLandy]

Indeed, even rights for some ZX Spectrum software are still enforced.

Very true. There's a lot of "abandonware" out there, but as a legal concept, that term is meaningless. Lots of copyright holders for old ZX Spectrum games don't bother to do anything about infringement, but technically they still hold the copyright for those games and could enforce it if they wished to.

Out of curiosity, are you aware of any ZX Spectrum software that's still actively defended by its IP holders?

 

[Zoe]

Out of curiosity, are you aware of any ZX Spectrum software that's still actively defended by its IP holders?

Yes, the most obvious example I can think of is Lemmings.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Perhaps in future, the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry (link) could become a home for Pendolinos in preservation?

 

[Manchester77]

Related but will the AC locomotive group be preserving 90s, 91s and 92s when it's heir time as it'd be nice for all the old BR electrics to be together

 

[captainbigun]

Related but will the AC locomotive group be preserving 90s, 91s and 92s when it's heir time as it'd be nice for all the old BR electrics to be together

I'm sure if someone can pay the bills it could be looked at. A fleet of nine is hard enough to look after with the volunteers available.

It's all very well buying a loco and finding somewhere to park it....but then what?

 

[michael769]

As someone who works in the IT industry, I have to say that it's rare indeed that any company would give up their IP rights to commercial software, no matter how old it is.

Actually a considerable amount has been "gifted" to various open source movements. For example GNU/Linux contains significant amounts of code that was previously proprietary that was originally owned by IBM and this is just one example of a major commercial contributor.

 

[AndyLandy]

Actually a considerable amount has been "gifted" to various open source movements. For example GNU/Linux contains significant amounts of code that was previously proprietary that was originally owned by IBM and this is just one example of a major commercial contributor.

IBM is an interesting one. They certainly have been involved in donating code to Linux, but they really are largely a minority.

You do get organisations like RedHat, who pay people to develop code specifically for Linux, and that is usually GPL'd along with the rest of the code, but it's certainly unlikely you'd find it in the field of corporate or industrial applications.

 

[Mr Sam]

i suppose the ideal location for any such trains would be Old Dalby if the site ever came available

 

[LexyBoy]

Is someone archiving all the threads detailing the failings of IEP for posterity? Or started a preservation movement for them?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It remains to be seen whether a full Pendolino set will be preserved. Just look at the hotch-potch collection of first generation EMU vehicles that have been preserved, and you can appreciate how difficult it has been for many preservation groups to find the cash and the storage space required to preserve even just a 3-car EMU.

And the Pendolinos are fixed formation multiple units of an unprecedented length in terms of UK rail operation: What preserved railway can provide siding space of sufficient length to accommodate a full nine, or even just the original eight, carriage Pendolino formation? Remember that not even a complete APT-P rake has been preserved, only barely the minimum number of different vehicle types required to represent an APT formation. It’s hard enough for a volunteer organisation to raise sufficient funds to purchase a single locomotive at any one time, let alone an entire, complete train formation in one go....

It may be interesting to see how the HST Preservation Group get on. Although not electric and not necessarily 'fixed formation' there aren't many railways that could host a full HST (and if they could, why not a Pendolino? (electric stuff aside - bear in mind the preservationists will be the current younger generation)).

The problem with preserving EMUs has been that few railways beyond the national network have the OLE/third rail, but this may, in part, be because they have never before needed it. As more electric stock becomes available, the OLE/third rail could become more cost effective. Perhaps there is need for 'joined up thinking' between these railways to make one electric and gradually build up stock and convert more lines to electrified railways.

....Do you mean a Track machine? IIRC all an MPV does is either sandite or jetting railheads...

One was tested for freight use (Chirk logs IIRC) and there were some built specifically as overhead wire trains AFAIAA, and isn't there a track survey unit?.

 

[Wath Yard]

The problem with preserving EMUs has been that few railways beyond the national network have the OLE/third rail, but this may, in part, be because they have never before needed it. As more electric stock becomes available, the OLE/third rail could become more cost effective. Perhaps there is need for 'joined up thinking' between these railways to make one electric and gradually build up stock and convert more lines to electrified railways.

Joe Public likes steam. In 30 or 40 year's time when there is nobody alive who remembers steam on the main line perhaps sentiment might move slightly towards older diesels and DMUs, but I honestly can't think of a time when people will look back misty eyed at the days they travelled on a Pendolino or a Desiro or Electrostar.

They're functional but are in no way romantic or anything to get nostalgic about when they are gone. One carriage in the NRM will be more than enough.

 

[Zoe]

but I honestly can't think of a time when people will look back misty eyed at the days they travelled on a Pendolino or a Desiro or Electrostar.

Unless there is a time in the future when rail is no longer used as a form of transport and that the the class 390 seen as one of the best trains of the golden age of rail that we may well now be entering with the likely decline of other forms of transport.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

To solve the voyager pendos question all voyagers were introduced in time for operatin princess in September 2002, but there were only a couple of pendolinos in service and this was specifically for special work for the commonwealth games.

As a preservation subject does anyone know where the classicstar prototype is if it is still in existence?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....As a preservation subject does anyone know where the classicstar prototype is if it is still in existence?

The Adtranz Classic was taken to store in Derby after it's display at Victoria in 1998 and, AFAIK, stayed there until it was disposed of last year.

 

[LexyBoy]

Unless there is a time in the future when rail is no longer used as a form of transport and that the the class 390 seen as one of the best trains of the golden age of rail that we may well now be entering with the likely decline of other forms of transport.

I would put a bet on people getting misty-eyed about today's trains in 40 years or so:

I'll be sorry to see those Pendolinos go once construction of HS2 is completed in twenty years or so. Sure they may be old but they show what used to be great about British Engineering - and British entrepreneurs too, you can't imagine train companies of today investing billions buying trains and rebuilding the line (on time and under budget too!). Give me solid, British built engineering over some 3D-printed Chinese muck anyday. Modern trains just don't have the character - that chic, airplane-like ambience, that high pitched regen squeal, that familiar smell.

Well, maybe.

 

[Anon Mouse]

It may be interesting to see how the HST Preservation Group get on. Although not electric and not necessarily 'fixed formation' there aren't many railways that could host a full HST (and if they could, why not a Pendolino? (electric stuff aside - bear in mind the preservationists will be the current younger generation)).

I'm sure some of the longer preserved lines could host an HST, ie the NYMR or the West Somerset etc etc. I'm not sure, however if they will need purpose built facilites or if the power cars will be equally at home served in a preservation sites loco shed.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I'm sure some of the longer preserved lines could host an HST, ie the NYMR or the West Somerset etc etc. I'm not sure, however if they will need purpose built facilites or if the power cars will be equally at home served in a preservation sites loco shed.

I'd love to see at least one FULL HST set preserved. In fact, as one of the most successful designs ever, I would suggest that it should be a priority for the National Collection.

However, please consider some practicalities:

1. Most of the well established lines are chock full of rolling stock as it is. The "full" signs are out.
2. Amongst those lines, the priority is steam, because that is what puts the bums on seats, ie joe public with no interest in railways. If that was going to change, it would have already, as you need to be in your 50s to have any meaningful memories of steam in BR service.
3. Loop length. You will struggle with a 9 vehicle train at many lines.
4. From what I understand about them, Mk III coaches really need to be kept electrically live. MTU engines don't like being cold started. The more modern the traction gets, the more "issues" like this you will have to face. Electronics don't like being left out in the cold and rain!
5. Skills - the lines do not have the skills base for this type of traction.

 

[Zoe]

MTU engines don't like being cold started. The more modern the traction gets, the more "issues" like this you will have to face. Electronics don't like being left out in the cold and rain!

Would a preserved HST use MTU rather than Valenta engines (if any of these engines survived when they were removed from the HSTs)?

 

[D365]

Would a preserved HST use MTU rather than Valenta engines (if any of these engines survived when they were removed from the HSTs)?

http://www.valentadiesels.co.uk/ - Plenty of parts have been saved. Although I will be somewhat surprised if an MTU 43 doesn't survive.

 

[455driver]

http://www.valentadiesels.co.uk/ - Plenty of parts have been saved. Although I will be somewhat surprised if an MTU 43 doesn't survive.

Maybe 43002 with a valenta and 43198 with an MTU?

 

[D365]

Maybe 43002 with a valenta and 43198 with an MTU?

And a VP185, buffered 43 in a Mk 3/4 and 91 rake... The list surely goes on!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Joe Public likes steam. In 30 or 40 year's time when there is nobody alive who remembers steam on the main line perhaps sentiment might move slightly towards older diesels and DMUs, but I honestly can't think of a time when people will look back misty eyed at the days they travelled on a Pendolino or a Desiro or Electrostar.

They're functional but are in no way romantic or anything to get nostalgic about when they are gone. One carriage in the NRM will be more than enough.

Steam will always be the breadwinner for preservation because it is so different to anything we have now. Diesel and electric preservation will always be for the 'fans'. Afterall there are plenty of first gen DMUs preserved these days so why not a 185 or 170.


Presrvation into the mid 21st century is going to get a lot harder anyway. Heritage diesels and steam are already facing endlessly mounting costs at overhaul and as mentioned newer stock is a lot more complex. I imagine we will see more cases of locos being for display only, maybe being propelled by another engine, or being rebuilt internally with a new generic build engine.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If a hst is preserved I would imagine if a complete rake was retained it would most likely be kept for charter Use. Purely for charter services I think we will see hst's on the main line for many years yet. Given that hst's were built right at the limit of technology of the time, they are no more complicated than a 47 and relatively easy to maintain compared to modern traction.

Current stagecoach rakes retain many of the hst's original features that have been lost on other TOC rakes so restoring one of these coaches to original BR and another to intercity interiors would be straightforward while one each of VXC, AXC, GNER and FGW would make for a colourful rake

 

[Manchester77]

VWC mark IIIs also retained IC70 seats etc