Permitted Routes Crewe-London

[Deafdoggie]

If I could tap into your fount of knowledge please! I need to make a number of journeys to and from London and Crewe and other places, over three or four days. I'm thinking a Crewe-London season ticket could well be the answer (although I'm open to other suggestions!) However, I also wondered what all the permissible routes are, and the 'break of journey' rule.

I assume the following (but please correct if wrong) where named stations, changing trains there:
Crewe-Euston through train via any route
Crewe-Stoke-Euston
Crewe-Birmingham-Euston
Crewe-Birmingham-Marylebone

But can I also:
Crewe-Leamington-Marylebone (or Crewe-Stoke-Leamington-Marylebone)
Crewe-Stoke-Reading-Paddington
Crewe-Stoke-Birmingham-Euston
Crewe-Derby-St Pancras


Finally, what, if any, other routes is it valid?

One final silly question, I assume that, if needs be, I can make as many trips a day as needed? i.e. I can go Crewe-Euston in the morning, then Euston-Crewe, and back to Euston? Can I start the day at the opposite end to my ticket? i.e. if my ticket is Crewe-Euston, can I start at Euston in the morning?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just to need to know I have it right!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Crewe-Stoke-Reading-Paddington

You may also have Crewe-Stoke-Reading-Waterloo.

The experts on routing will advise, but season tickets have always offered unlimited travel between the stations listed and intermediate stations. Crewe to London would no doubt be London Terminals, rather than restricted to Euston, so potentially that's a lot of stations.

 

[mikeg]

I'm not going to answer the routeing guide questions immediately, but will have a look if I get a moment. I can however answer these questions:

One final silly question, I assume that, if needs be, I can make as many trips a day as needed? i.e. I can go Crewe-Euston in the morning, then Euston-Crewe, and back to Euston? Can I start the day at the opposite end to my ticket? i.e. if my ticket is Crewe-Euston, can I start at Euston in the morning?

Can you make as many trips a day as needed? Well if you buy tickets for all of the journeys, yes, but a return ticket is good only for one trip in each direction. Reuse a ticket and you'll likely get yourself in big trouble as you wouldn't have paid for the journey.
Answer to the second and third questions: You may use the return portion before the outward portion, subject to any time restrictions. However this would void the outward portion, which is only valid with an unused return portion.

Edit: Just notice you are planning of getting a season, in which case all of the above is fine, you may make unlimited journeys in each direction within the validity period of the ticket. You may also make journeys to or between intermediate stations, provided that the route is permitted. I'll check the routeing guide for you. However if you had return tickets the above would apply.

 

[Deafdoggie]

You may also have Crewe-Stoke-Reading-Waterloo.

That would actually be really handy, as I need to get to Waterloo at least once!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may also have Crewe-Stoke-Reading-Waterloo.

That would actually be really handy, as I need to get to Waterloo at least once!

TBH that will be massively slower than Crewe-Euston direct then the Northern Line or 59/68 bus.

 

[mikeg]

Crewe to Derby to St Pancras is not permitted, you may not travel via Derby. You would need (a) new ticket(s) from Stoke on Trent onwards, depending on where you wish to go.

Crewe to Stoke to Reading to Paddington appears to be a permitted route under map RJ+RG,

Crewe to Stoke to Leamington Spa to Marylebone appears to be fine under maps BV+GC. You may choose whether to go via or avoid Birmingham, they're both on these maps.

Crewe to Stoke to Birmingham to Euston is fine.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Crewe to Derby to St Pancras is not permitted, you may not travel via Derby.

Crewe to Stoke to Reading to Paddington appears to be a permitted route under map RJ+RG, subject to easements, which I'll check.

Crewe to Stoke to Leamington Spa to Marylebone appears to be fine under maps BV+GC, subject to easements. You may choose whether to go via or avoid Birmingham, they're both on these maps.

Out of interest then,what difference does it make if I travel from Stoke instead of Crewe? I believe Derby is valid then? But does anything else become invalid?

 

[mikeg]

Out of interest then,what difference does it make if I travel from Stoke instead of Crewe? I believe Derby is valid then? But does anything else become invalid?

Not necessarily, but I'd have to look up different maps and routes. Stoke is a completely separate routeing point and therefore has its own set of maps, which may or not coincide with those from Crewe. I'll see if going via Derby is valid on a Stoke on Trent to London Terminals ticket, hang on.

The relevant maps from Crewe to London are BV+GC (gives the bulk of the routes via Birmingham and Nuneaton), LC (direct routes via the WCML, though you may loop through Birmingham if you wish) and RJ+RG (routes via Reading). For most journeys a fares check must also be completed to ensure the routeing points are appropriate, but as both Crewe and London are routeing points/routeing point groups themselves, this is irrelevant in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The maps you may use from Stoke to London are RV+RG, TL+BV+GC and TL+SF, all of which preclude travel via Derby. Whilst map SF has Derby on it, it would be impossible to get to Derby without doubling back and is therefore not permitted. That is ofcourse unless there is some sort of easement permitting travel from Stoke to London via Derby - which there doesn't appear to be.

 

[Deafdoggie]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The maps you may use from Stoke to London are RV+RG, TL+BV+GC and TL+SF, all of which preclude travel via Derby. Whilst map SF has Derby on it, it would be impossible to get to Derby without doubling back and is therefore not permitted. That is ofcourse unless there is some sort of easement permitting travel from Stoke to London via Derby - which there doesn't appear to be.[/QUOTE]

It is strange that EMT actually advertise the route in their timetables, but maybe they are just after the Peartree market! I do know you could use it during West Coast blockades, but that might of been a temporary easement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TBH that will be massively slower than Crewe-Euston direct then the Northern Line or 59/68 bus.

I have to get to Reading at some point, but I'd just assumed Paddington. I was just after checking I could get to Reading. But if I combine the two that would be handy on this occasion.

 

[mikeg]

Do they advertise it as a through service? If so it is valid on such a through service irrespective of what the routeing guide says. However if you are changing trains AND are not taking the shortest route you must take a route allowed by the routeing guide. Have to say I'm not as familiar with the services in the area as I was when I was at Keele but I don't recall seeing such a service advertised then, though things may have changed.

 

[Merseysider]

Stoke-Derby-St Pancakes certainly isn't a through service, the two sections are operated by completely different units

 

[OwlMan]

A season ticket from any station from Longton to Tutbury & Hatton is valid by both Stoke & Derby and they are all the same price as a Stoke season ticket.
They would be valid via Stoke to Euston, Marylebone & Paddington but not Waterloo and also via Derby and Leicester to St Pancras or via Derby, Tamworth & Nuneaton to London Euston.

 

[Deafdoggie]

A season ticket from any station from Longton to Tutbury & Hatton is valid by both Stoke & Derby and they are all the same price as a Stoke season ticket.
They would be valid via Stoke to Euston, Marylebone & Paddington but not Waterloo and also via Derby and Leicester to St Pancras or via Derby, Tamworth & Nuneaton to London Euston.

So, essentially the same as Stoke, but without Reading-Waterloo, and bonus of Derby-St Pancras?

 

[mikeg]

Essentially, it allows you to use both the Stoke and Derby routeing points to get your set of maps, so allows you to use both the permitted routes from Stoke to London and from Derby to London, subject to easements and being able to get to a given location on the map(s) on the way to London without doubling back.

 

[John @ home]

A Crewe - London Terminals 7-day season ticket costs £342.90 by Any Permitted route, or £189.00 by slower London Midland services only.

A Stoke-on-Trent - London Terminals 7-day season ticket costs £339.40 by Any Permitted route, or £189.00 by slower London Midland services only.

mikeg has pointed out that Stoke-on-Trent - London St Pancras via Derby is not a Permitted Route, but a Uttoxeter - London Terminals 7-day season ticket also costs £339.40 by Any Permitted route and is permitted via Stoke-on-Trent or via Derby. It can therefore be used for Stoke-on-Trent - Uttoxeter - Derby - London St Pancras journeys.

I think we could assist Deafdoggie more if we had a list of places to be visited and of the time constraints. Assuming day trips, there is a great deal of money to be saved if outward travel can be made after the morning peak period, returning after the evening peak period.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think we could assist Deafdoggie more if we had a list of places to be visited and of the time constraints. Assuming day trips, there is a great deal of money to be saved if outward travel can be made after the morning peak period, returning after the evening peak period.

Time of day itself isn't a factor, but what needs to be achieved is! So I need to get to Kings Cross area (I know it is walkable from Euston, but even moreso from St Pancras, and the extra journey time against the walking there and back time is probably worth it as I have stuff to carry) I need to visit Birmingham, I need to visit Reading, and I need to get to Waterloo area. Sometime I'll need to get to a point a couple of times in a day. I'm thinking it just makes life easier if I don't have to worry about times, and can just get any train. Certainly some things can't be confirmed until the day, so could end up being late or hanging around if there is time constraint.

Plus, of course, I fancy a bit of a run out and about! If I can, why not?

 

[John @ home]

Do you have, or are you eligible for, a national Railcard? Railcards give 34% discount on single and return tickets, most rovers and rangers, but not season tickets.

It may be that a combination of a rover with other single or return tickets would give you best value. For example the Heart of England 3 in 7 Days Rover gives unlimited travel (after 08:59 Mon-Fri, any time weekends + bank hols) on any 3 out of 7 consecutive days in the area shown on this map for £81.60 (Railcard £53.85). This could be combined with return tickets to London from the edge of the Rover's area (e.g. Rugby, Northampton or Oxford).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At one time Reading-Staines-Waterloo was certainly a valid route on a Crewe-London ticket under BR's rules, but I am under the impression that it disappeared at privatisation.
From Birmingham, I thought you could now only reach Euston, Marylebone and Paddington.
There also used to be a route from Crewe into Waterloo via Hereford, Bristol and Salisbury, but I think that disappeared when the through service was withdrawn.

 

[BurtonM]

NRE sends you to Paddington if you specify 'via Reading'.

 

[70014IronDuke]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The maps you may use from Stoke to London are RV+RG, TL+BV+GC and TL+SF, all of which preclude travel via Derby. Whilst map SF has Derby on it, it would be impossible to get to Derby without doubling back and is therefore not permitted.

I don't understand. What doubling back? apart from 100 metres or so from Derby station to the junction with the line to Leicester (Is it Derby Sth Jcn?)

That is of course unless there is some sort of easement permitting travel from Stoke to London via Derby - which there doesn't appear to be.

It was a long time ago, of course, and so has little or no relevance to today's railways, but in 1960-62 some Manchester London Rd to London trains were diverted (timetabled) from Stoke to Derby and St Pancras, most notably on Sundays. This was for WCML electrification purposes.

 

[Merseysider]

Map SF goes nowhere near Derby.

 

[bb21]

Assuming you only want Waterloo and not intermediate locations between there and Reading, why you would want to go direct is beyond me. It is infinitely slower than Reading - Paddington then the Bakerloo Line, unless you are desperate to save that £2.40 tube fare.