Personal Track Safety

[JustSi]

I work for a contractor on the railway in Weymouth cleaning trains. Last night they sent someone down who is PTS trained. Due to the sidings not being signed off by health and safety, the works are done by network rail which has been completed. My concern is Does a person with PTS have the right to take a group of people down sidings who are not PTS trained? even though that person has been instructed by a regional manager to take us down there. The concern is health and safety of others as its just one PTS trained person, I know it's a gray area but if I remember when I took my PTS back in 2012 it was still a gray area.



We all refused on the grounds of health and safety and mentioned we are not PTS trained and that station staff for SWR have even mentioned there is no need for anyone to go down there unless it is a train driver or station staff to pull the point's leaver.

 

[LCC106]

If the works haven’t been signed off I wouldn’t think you should be down there. If cleaning can be done other than in a siding again it’s a no from me. Is it internal cleaning? On a separate note during our PTS training as drivers our instructor took 8 of us onto a siding to lay track circuit clips and demonstrate safe ways to cross the line.

 

[JustSi]

Internal cleaning yes.

But surely as 1 person is only PTS trained and for example - walks 3 or 4 people down to the walking route and upto sidings and that person PTS trained slips or per say has a funny turn everyone else will be naffed because there not trained and wouldn't have the foggiest what to do.

The ones I work with are some what idiotic

 

[LCC106]

Yep. Not sure of the exact rules regarding this personally though.

 

[AverageJoe]

Hmm it’s an interesting one.

Whenever I have had PTS training it will be in daylight on a depot where the road has been blocked so there really is no danger.

In this case it seems you are going trackside in the dark and it sounds like there has been no instruction.


Also when we are PTS trained we have to pass the theory side of it first before even going anywhere near the line.

The fact it is called PERSONAL track safety suggests that it was possibly a bit naughty what was done since you are responsible for your own safety.

Normally only in an emergency would someone who is not PTS trained be escorted trackside, ie passenger evacuation.

 

[JustSi]

Hmm it’s an interesting one.

Whenever I have had PTS training it will be in daylight on a depot where the road has been blocked so there really is no danger.

In this case it seems you are going trackside in the dark and it sounds like there has been no instruction.


Also when we are PTS trained we have to pass the theory side of it first before even going anywhere near the line.

The fact it is called PERSONAL track safety suggests that it was possibly a bit naughty what was done since you are responsible for your own safety.

Normally only in an emergency would someone who is not PTS trained be escorted trackside, ie passenger evacuation.

Exactly my point and you jogged my memory with your reply as well. I was trained during day years ago under GWR as a contracter then and it was different. Now I'm under a contracter under SWR our Regional manager sent a acting supervisor down saying he is to take us up the sidings and onto the train He mentioned because he is PTS trained he can take people up sidings.

I find that wrong and against health and saftey of others.

Baring in mind we were not being trained just taken to sidings to clean trains

 

[Somewhere]

Report it to the Signaller. It would be trespass.

 

[AverageJoe]

Did that mean you had to go on to the mainline where trains are passing at speed? Was there OHLE or Third rail?

Was there any instruction on positions of safety? What certain signage means? Where to step and not to step? What the speed of the line is and the direction trains approach from? How to respond to a train once in a position of safety?

These are the basics I would expect to know if walking to a train trackside or in a sidings.

Probably the best thing you can do is ask your union rep (if you have one)

Even the simplest of mistakes like stepping on the rail head or wet sleepers can cause and accident.

we had an incident in my toc recently where cleaners were staying on a train that would sit in a sidings for 45mins.

I refused to take them in with my and flagged it up with management as my concern was if the train failed in the sidings how would we get them out if they are not PTS trained. It would call for a line block and then they would need to be escorted.

Management was on my side and they weren’t aware. It has since had a stop put to it.

 

[JustSi]

Did that mean you had to go on to the mainline where trains are passing at speed? Was there OHLE or Third rail?

Was there any instruction on positions of safety? What certain signage means? Where to step and not to step? What the speed of the line is and the direction trains approach from? How to respond to a train once in a position of safety?

These are the basics I would expect to know if walking to a train trackside or in a sidings.

Probably the best thing you can do is ask your union rep (if you have one)

Even the simplest of mistakes like stepping on the rail head or wet sleepers can cause and accident.

we had an incident in my toc recently where cleaners were staying on a train that would sit in a sidings for 45mins.

I refused to take them in with my and flagged it up with management as my concern was if the train failed in the sidings how would we get them out if they are not PTS trained. It would call for a line block and then they would need to be escorted.

Management was on my side and they weren’t aware. It has since had a stop put to it.

We would have had to walk down a main road to get to the sidings and walk along the cess then cross road 1 in sidings to get to road 2 which only powers 5 carriages and not a 10 carriages.

We didn't go down because the driver shut the power off on the trains in the sidings and we Knew the line was going to be shut off until Monday due to engineering works. All 3 of us said no and informed them we would go to the union.

 

[Tractor2018]

To be pedantic, it's about competency and responsibility rather than right.

With that in mind, PERSONAL track safety is intended for that, essentially - so the individual is competent in being responsible for him/herself, personally.

Under emergency evacuation situations, yes I'd be the first to help passengers on the lineside of a running line. Routinely, in a siding, to help a company cut corners - under no circumstances.

 

[66701GBRF]

Personal Track Safety is just that...personal. It doesn't give the right or authority to take a group of people, let alone a group of non trained PTS people, on or near the line. That is what a Controller Of Site Safety is for.

 

[muz379]

I would suggest that this is a matter better answered by a local union H&S rep with an understanding of the location , the work that was being done and what happened . Especially if as you mention "sidings have not been signed off" suggesting maybe a Risk assessment has not been completed for the activity in that location .

To go on or near a network rail managed line in connection with work duties each individual needs their own PTS whilst the line is open to trains . Someone leading a group would also need a COSS(controller of site safety) competency .

But in a private siding or yard there is no requirement for staff to need PTS as it specifically applies to network rail managed infastructure , but the owner/operator of the private yard or siding would need a risk assessment that would probably necessitate some briefing/training on safety.

 

[JustSi]

Personal Track Safety is just that...personal. It doesn't give the right or authority to take a group of people, let alone a group of non trained PTS people, on or near the line. That is what a Controller Of Site Safety is for.

Well I know all this has jogged my memory since I last took my PTS and thank you.

I guess it's Contract companies trying to kill people instead of being concerned of there saftey.

 

[PupCuff]

I don't think it's easy to make a determination from the information available, there's multiple locations on the network where you wouldn't expect someone accessing a siding etc to have "PTS".

Each location should have walking routes specified to and from it and the risk assessment off the back of that will determine what training staff will need to be able to access it. If this is a sidings associated with a station, I'd expect there to be a reasonably well established walking route between the two.

There's a push in TOC world to move away from a blanket "PTS" towards training more bespoke to the role and location. The reference in the OP to "the sidings not being signed off by health and saftey[sic]" would lead me to the view that they mean not signed off by the Trade Union Health and Safety reps, rather than not actually been brought into use and approved by NR/TOC safety teams. And with this in mind, I wonder if this is the crux of the issue and there is a wider dispute between the TU and the TOC as to training needs for the staff accessing the siding which has prompted all of this.

 

[Llanigraham]

Internal cleaning yes.

But surely as 1 person is only PTS trained and for example - walks 3 or 4 people down to the walking route and upto sidings and that person PTS trained slips or per say has a funny turn everyone else will be naffed because there not trained and wouldn't have the foggiest what to do.

The ones I work with are some what idiotic

Is that a designated and recorded "Safe Walking Route", typically in this region marked by yellow paint or posts?
(EG: the walking routes to Severn Bridge Junct Signal Box for signallers who are not PTS trained)

 

[JustSi]

Thank you for everyone's input, I have past this onto the Union which are now looking into it.