Perth to Liverpool via Settle

[The Puddock]

I'm planning a trip to Liverpool in June and I'm considering whether it might be possible to tie in my journey south via the Settle Carlisle line and the reinstated Saturday service via Clitheroe. Looking at brfares.com I can see that the Perth to Liverpool ticket shows the route as being "Via Lancaster" so I think I would need split tickets from Perth to Hellifield and Hellifield to Liverpool. My question is would the Hellifield to Liverpool ticket be valid for travel via Manchester Victoria? Remarkably I have managed to get the Rail Staff Travel website to produce an itinerary via Clitheroe but it tells me to change at Blackburn for a service to Preston, then change again at Wigan North Western for Liverpool Lime Street. However, I can see on real time trains that if I stayed on the same train beyond Blackburn there's a connection at Manchester straight onto a Newcastle to Liverpool service, which would mean one less change. I think it probably is but I know nothing about the Routing Guide other than the fact it exists and is very complicated, so any help would be appreciated!

Of course the next question is what should I do when I arrive at Hellifield to find that the train via Clitheroe has been cancelled...?

 

[jfollows]

My question is would the Hellifield to Liverpool ticket be valid for travel via Manchester Victoria?

Valid routes are given in the routeing guide by maps (https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)

• WY + MN + NO
• WY + MN + NR
• XV

and the first two are valid via Leeds and Manchester.

EDIT But if you go via Clitheroe and therefore map XV you're not valid via Manchester, you need to go via Preston and Wigan. As per the itinerary you have generated. Essentially you can go via Manchester if you also go via Leeds. But Hellifield-Clitheroe-Blackburn-Manchester-Liverpool is not a valid route.

Of course, you may "get away with" doing as you propose, but technically it's not valid, you can't mix and match routes in the routeing guide and in any case Blackburn-Manchester isn't covered by any of the valid routes anyway.

Of course the next question is what should I do when I arrive at Hellifield to find that the train via Clitheroe has been cancelled...?

Go via Leeds

 

[anothertyke]

Valid routes are given in the routeing guide by maps (https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)

• WY + MN + NO
• WY + MN + NR
• XV

and the first two are valid via Leeds and Manchester.

EDIT But if you go via Clitheroe and therefore map XV you're not valid via Manchester, you need to go via Preston and Wigan. As per the itinerary you have generated. Essentially you can go via Manchester if you also go via Leeds.

Of course, you may "get away with" doing as you propose, but technically it's not valid, you can't mix and match routes in the routeing guide and in any case Blackburn-Manchester isn't covered by any of the valid routes anyway.


Go via Leeds

catch the 580 bus to Lancaster.

 

[The Puddock]

Thanks very much for the answers, looks like I’ll need to change at Blackburn since I don’t want to do anything dodgy that would risk jeopardising my travel facilities.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I believe that Hooton to Hellifield is valid via Liverpool, Manchester, Bolton and Clitheroe (maps NO+MH or NR+MH).

 

[507020]

Why can tickets not be split anything like Perth - Ribblehead, Ribblehead - Manchester Victoria, Manchester Victoria - Lime Street, rather than compromising on routing and going via Leeds?

 

[lyndhurst25]

Looking back at The Puddock’s original query - are there not also “any permitted” tickets from Perth to Liverpool, in addition to ones routed “via Lancaster”?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

So maybe the split at Hellifield isn’t necessary after all?

 

[The Puddock]

I believe that Hooton to Hellifield is valid via Liverpool, Manchester, Bolton and Clitheroe (maps NO+MH or NR+MH).

Good to know, thanks!

Why can tickets not be split anything like Perth - Ribblehead, Ribblehead - Manchester Victoria, Manchester Victoria - Lime Street, rather than compromising on routing and going via Leeds?

I hadn’t thought of a triple split - that would definitely work.

Looking back at The Puddock’s original query - are there not also “any permitted” tickets from Perth to Liverpool, in addition to ones routed “via Lancaster”?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

So maybe the split at Hellifield isn’t necessary after all?

I hadn‘t spotted that when I looked at brfares but I just had a very quick scan (well, actually I think I did see it but saw LNER as the fare setter and ignored it, because why would they have anthing to do with Clitheroe…). It looks like I have quite a few options for this journey, if I decide to do it. Thanks again!

 

[jfollows]

Looking back at The Puddock’s original query - are there not also “any permitted” tickets from Perth to Liverpool, in addition to ones routed “via Lancaster”?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

So maybe the split at Hellifield isn’t necessary after all?

There are 32 permitted routes using "any permitted" tickets Perth-Liverpool:

KI + MG + NO
KI + MG + NR
give validity to Hellifield, Blackburn, then Bolton, Manchester to Liverpool
KI + GV gives Hellifield, Blackburn, then Preston, Wigan
EI, GI can be substituted for KI to give different routes in Scotland.

The “any permitted” ticket is priced by LNER with 3V restriction (09:30 or later) on the off-peak return, a bit more expensive than the “via Lancaster” one priced by Avanti.

 

[The Puddock]

Brilliant thanks, looks like the Any Permitted return is the one for me. Out of interest, how on earth do guards keep track of which routes are allowed in cases like this?!

 

[jfollows]

Brilliant thanks, looks like the Any Permitted return is the one for me. Out of interest, how on earth do guards keep track of which routes are allowed in cases like this?!

They’ll not have a clue, and will either guess, believe you or won’t care. Worst case they invent the rules themselves.

 

[The Puddock]

The “any permitted” ticket is priced by LNER with 3V restriction (09:30 or later) on the off-peak return, a bit more expensive than the “via Lancaster” one priced by Avanti.

Ah, I would be aiming for 2J22 11:08 Ribblehead to Rochadale (the evening service would be too late) which means being on the 06:14 from Perth, so the ‘any permitted’ wouldn’t be valid on that. Looks like a three-way split is the way forward.

This forum really is an excellent resource for folk like me who don’t have a clue how any of this works. I’ve spent 20 years virtually never travelling by train - apart from as Pilotman - but I’m starting to spread my wings a bit now I have priv travel.

 

[jfollows]

Ah, I would be aiming for 2J22 11:08 Ribblehead to Rochadale (the evening service would be too late) which means being on the 06:14 from Perth, so the ‘any permitted’ wouldn’t be valid on that. Looks like a three-way split is the way forward.

This forum really is an excellent resource for folk like me who don’t have a clue how any of this works. I’ve spent 20 years virtually never travelling by train - apart from as Pilotman - but I’m starting to spread my wings a bit now I have priv travel.

Or get the anytime return, £188.90 versus £162.90 for the off-peak return, base price. Actually, if you're using PRIV rates it's probably even less of a difference, if any.

EDIT And, wouldn't you know, the anytime return "any permitted" is actually cheaper than the anytime return "via Lancaster" anyway.

 

[The Puddock]

Or get the anytime return, £188.90 versus £162.90 for the off-peak return, base price. Actually, if you're using PRIV rates it's probably even less of a difference, if any.

EDIT And, wouldn't you know, the anytime return "any permitted" is actually cheaper than the anytime return "via Lancaster" anyway.

Perfect, thanks again for all your help!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Ah, I would be aiming for 2J22 11:08 Ribblehead to Rochadale (the evening service would be too late) which means being on the 06:14 from Perth, so the ‘any permitted’ wouldn’t be valid on that. Looks like a three-way split is the way forward.

This forum really is an excellent resource for folk like me who don’t have a clue how any of this works. I’ve spent 20 years virtually never travelling by train - apart from as Pilotman - but I’m starting to spread my wings a bit now I have priv travel.

I wouldn't have thought the off peak restrictions apply on Saturdays. I'm assuming you're travelling on a Saturday, as that's when the new Ribblehead to Rochdale via Blackburn trains will be running.

 

[jfollows]

I wouldn't have thought the off peak restrictions apply on Saturdays. I'm assuming you're travelling on a Saturday, as that's when the new Ribblehead to Rochdale via Blackburn trains will be running.

Excellent point, thank you!

 

[kieron]

EDIT And, wouldn't you know, the anytime return "any permitted" is actually cheaper than the anytime return "via Lancaster" anyway.

You'd only buy the "via Lancaster" anytime return if you planned to stop overnight on the way down. The off peak equivalent has a 2U restriction code, and the description lists it as not being valid before 4:15am, but you can easily get an itinerary with the same restriction code which starts before then, for instance with the 04:07 from Manchester Airport.