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Phones vs. dedicated devices for photography and audio

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Bletchleyite

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Quite possibly this is because I'm not very good at using the camera on my iPhone, but I get much better results from my 15-year-old Fuji camera (which still uses xD cards ;) - fortunately I also have an old computer (running Windows Vista ;) ) which has a card reader for them).

£5.99 for a USB XD card reader on Amazon so I doubt I'd worry there (nor put up with Vista for it!)
 
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jon0844

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Tends to be a laptop these days, usually a Mac, but an iPhone can produce the same quality of sound as a Mac. Probably more about the ability to store enough music unless doing it off Spotify!

A good DJ could use just about anything these days to play music, and their skill is in knowing what to play and when - and how to adapt to the crowd etc. I'd say that's more important than turning up with a set of decks that fit a perceived image of what a DJ should look like.

And high-end smartphones these days can often take great photos that are beyond the capabilities of their raw image sensor and lenses, as they have now likely have dedicated custom chips to process and enhance the images and video, often using some sort of basic AI to do so.

Does this mean the image is not entirely true to life? Sure, but people seem to prefer it. Hence, Sony's Xperia range is now something mostly for content creators that want a natural, true to life, image and most people are preferring sharp, saturated, vivid images they can share on social media. Google has given Pixel users and selected Google One users the ability to easily remove people and objects from photos with very good results in most cases, and there are ways to de-blur images.

Sure, you'd expect a wedding photographer to turn up with a professional camera, but a good photographer that understands lighting, backgrounds and getting the right poses could almost certainly get you almost identical photos with a phone - and at a size more than large enough for printing (and photo editing software is now fantastic at upscaling images if you suddenly want to print a photo on a billboard..)
 

MikeWM

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£5.99 for a USB XD card reader on Amazon so I doubt I'd worry there (nor put up with Vista for it!)

That does seem easier than moving around power and monitor cables whenever I need to download photographs, yes :) - thanks.

Alternatively I'm probably well overdue buying a new camera.
 

JohnMcL7

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Although I have a nice Cowon mp3 player and wired headphones which has better audio quality than my phone but it's not anywhere near enough for the convenience my phone offers so it's my mp3 player these days.

Camera wise although I have a high end Android phone and use its camera frequently, it's still a very long way behind even my ten year old FF camera never mind the current stacked sensor FF camera. Yes it can be a bit of a pain to haul around at times and for everyday easy shots, it's not really needed but for anything more than that its incredible high iso, wide dynamic range, resolution, latitude in the raw files, flexibility of the lenses, lighting accessories and range put it so far ahead of any smartphone it's absolutely worth it.
 

Thirteen

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The fact a lot of camera makers like Hasselblad are teaming up with phone companies such as Oppo suggests that they've seen how far cameras on phones have become.

The majority of the public want something they can share on social media or to their families which is why phones have become more important than even portable digital cameras.
 

341o2

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"The camera are so good" is a subjective view. Pictures taken on smartphones are good enough for viewing on phones of normal monitors (1080p types). Viewing on a UHD (or better) screen, and definitely a hard copy print, clearly reveals the flaws in picture taken with substandard sensors and lens. That's before any processing is done to hide those flaws in the picture.
Indeed, something viewed at 6x4 resolution can be fine, view it as 12x8, and it is a different story. There is also the issue of colour calibration.
Photographic quality is essentially down to one thing - sensor size, not megapixels
 

AM9

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Indeed, something viewed at 6x4 resolution can be fine, view it as 12x8, and it is a different story. There is also the issue of colour calibration.
Photographic quality is essentially down to one thing - sensor size, not megapixels
Apple create this aura that they can fix all the issues that real world mechanical and elctronic shortcomings can be fixed with their software. It's a myth of course but because much of the company's following is almost cult like, there are many who never question their word from on high. That is until one of their mistakes is so obvious like an aerial that didn't work (iPhone 4 ISTR) that the engineering world just laughed at it. The fanboys (and girls) were easily bought of by a free trendy bumper case. :rolleyes:
 

WelshBluebird

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but for anything that that needs to be more than "the best that I could do completely unprepared at the time"
The thing is, for 99% of people 99% of the time, that is absolutely fine and is as much as what they need.

In one of your other posts you mention displaying on a UHD display or hard prints, but for most people those use cases are simply irrelevant for the most part. At most people may want to use their photos as a screensaver on a large TV which smartphones are good enough for. And the only hard copies people tend to have these days are either proper professional albums done for things like weddings (where yes you'd expect a "proper" camera), or scenarios where the quality doesn't matter as much like silly instant prints from Polaroid like things or getting some quick prints from say Google Photos for a scrapbook.

Tends to be a laptop these days, usually a Mac, but an iPhone can produce the same quality of sound as a Mac. Probably more about the ability to store enough music unless doing it off Spotify!
Tbh at that point if that is all that is being offered I'd be tempted to do that myself!
 

AM9

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The thing is, for 99% of people 99% of the time, that is absolutely fine and is as much as what they need.

In one of your other posts you mention displaying on a UHD display or hard prints, but for most people those use cases are simply irrelevant for the most part. At most people may want to use their photos as a screensaver on a large TV which smartphones are good enough for. And the only hard copies people tend to have these days are either proper professional albums done for things like weddings (where yes you'd expect a "proper" camera), or scenarios where the quality doesn't matter as much like silly instant prints from Polaroid like things or getting some quick prints from say Google Photos for a scrapbook.
I disagree. Although many may never print their 'more successful' pictures*, with an increasingly greater number of people having UHD TVs at home, that has become a convenient viewer for photo collections, usually by plugging in a USB pen drive.
* A very high proportion of pictures on smartphones never leave the phone' s internal memory, and are ditched with the phone at the end of its 2-4 year life.
 

jon0844

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The fact a lot of camera makers like Hasselblad are teaming up with phone companies such as Oppo suggests that they've seen how far cameras on phones have become.

The majority of the public want something they can share on social media or to their families which is why phones have become more important than even portable digital cameras.

Indeed. When Huawei partnered with Leica, it wasn't just a cheap license deal. Leica actually customised the camera app considerably, right down to the trademark colour profiles. They also played a part in ensuring the camera lenses were of a good enough quality. Even today, the P30 Pro still takes stunning photos that can compete with current-day models and even fool people into thinking the photos must be on a more recent model.

Today you have Vivo with Zeiss, Oppo and OnePlus with Hasselblad, and Xiaomi with Leica (Leica ended its partnership with Huawei not long after Huawei's ban on using Google Services effectively killed sales globally).

Apple create this aura that they can fix all the issues that real world mechanical and elctronic shortcomings can be fixed with their software. It's a myth of course but because much of the company's following is almost cult like, there are many who never question their word from on high. That is until one of their mistakes is so obvious like an aerial that didn't work (iPhone 4 ISTR) that the engineering world just laughed at it. The fanboys (and girls) were easily bought of by a free trendy bumper case. :rolleyes:

Things have moved on a lot since 2010. Sure, you still have the fanboys, but camera tech has advanced at an incredible pace. Today, you can buy a smartphone for £300-400 and it will have an excellent main camera. It may not do 4K or 8K, and may not have a telephoto or ultrawide camera, or capture great photos in near pitch black conditions, but it will still be excellent for the photos 99% of consumers take.

I disagree. Although many may never print their 'more successful' pictures*, with an increasingly greater number of people having UHD TVs at home, that has become a convenient viewer for photo collections, usually by plugging in a USB pen drive.
* A very high proportion of pictures on smartphones never leave the phone' s internal memory, and are ditched with the phone at the end of its 2-4 year life.

Most phones will pixel bin to 12MP, which seems to have become the accepted standard no matter how many megapixels or the image sensor size. Many phones will capture multiple images at different exposures so quick, it can then stitch together an excellent HDR photo in no time - making it possible to take multiple shots/burst photos with ease. Some phones will even take photos automatically, such as the Honor Magic 5 Pro, based on AI to spot the right moment (again, not something a pro might want, but consumers absolutely do). Such modes are ideal for kids and pets.

A 12MP image will be too big to view on even a 4K display and will be downscaled. This then means you can zoom in and not lose detail - indeed it's required to see the detail in the image!
 
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WelshBluebird

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I disagree. Although many may never print their 'more successful' pictures*, with an increasingly greater number of people having UHD TVs at home, that has become a convenient viewer for photo collections, usually by plugging in a USB pen drive.
* A very high proportion of pictures on smartphones never leave the phone' s internal memory, and are ditched with the phone at the end of its 2-4 year life.
But that is another use case that simply is not relevant for 99% of people. Hardly anyone views photo collections on a 4K TV via a USB stick. That just is not something the vast majority of people do. At most they may be used as a screenaver from Google Photos on a Chromecast or similar device. As for most photos being ditched with the phone, I doubt that is true these days given most people now will use some kind of cloud solution (the already mentioned Google photos, or Apple iCloud etc etc).
 

cactustwirly

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With regard to optical zoom iPhone Pros have 6 times. Obviously not anywhere near 40 times, but most people aren't the paparazzi, and because the resolution is good a bit of digital zoom is OK on top.
How is that achieved? Is it just cropping the image or actually moving the focal length?
 

87electric

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I went to a wedding last year where all they did was had a laptop with Spotify and some decent speakers and lights, and invited people to go and add stuff to the playlist themselves!
I lived in a parallel universe when I got married. Record player, vinyl, decent speakers and lights, and asked the congregation to ask the DJ for their favourites to be added to a vinyl stack playlist.
 

Bletchleyite

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I lived in a parallel universe when I got married. Record player, vinyl, decent speakers and lights, and asked the congregation to ask the DJ for their favourites to be added to a vinyl stack playlist.

The upside of Spotify is that "Sorry mate, I've not got that" is near enough not a thing.
 

Ediswan

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How is that achieved? Is it just cropping the image or actually moving the focal length?
As far as I can tell, the term 'optical zoom' on iPhones is a bit of a fudge. They have multiple cameras, each with a fixed zoom (focal length). Rather like an SLR user with several fixed focal length lenses, but no zoom lens.
 

AM9

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Indeed. When Huawei partnered with Leica, it wasn't just a cheap license deal. Leica actually customised the camera app considerably, right down to the trademark colour profiles. They also played a part in ensuring the camera lenses were of a good enough quality. Even today, the P30 Pro still takes stunning photos that can compete with current-day models and even fool people into thinking the photos must be on a more recent model.
Today you have Vivo with Zeiss, Oppo and OnePlus with Hasselblad, and Xiaomi with Leica (Leica ended its partnership with Huawei not long after Huawei's ban on using Google Services effectively killed sales globally).A 12MP image will be too big to view on even a 4K display and will be downscaled. This then means you can zoom in and not lose detail - indeed it's required to see the detail in the image!
Several of the lens manufacturers have been partnering with the major purpose-built camera makers, e.g. Leica with Panasonic for Lumix models, Zeiss with Sony for all sorts of camcorders and consumer models (until Sony purchased Minolta).

Things have moved on a lot since 2010. Sure, you still have the fanboys, but camera tech has advanced at an incredible pace. Today, you can buy a smartphone for £300-400 and it will have an excellent main camera. It may not do 4K or 8K, and may not have a telephoto or ultrawide camera, or capture great photos in near pitch black conditions, but it will still be excellent for the photos 99% of consumers take.
Each time Apple makes a mistake, yes it learns from it. But as @JohnMcL7 says above, even a 10 year old SLR still easily beats phone cameras every time (to a critical eye of course).

Most phones will pixel bin to 12MP, which seems to have become the accepted standard no matter how many megapixels or the image sensor size. Many phones will capture multiple images at different exposures so quick, it can then stitch together an excellent HDR photo in no time - making it possible to take multiple shots/burst photos with ease. Some phones will even take photos automatically, such as the Honor Magic 5 Pro, based on AI to spot the right moment (again, not something a pro might want, but consumers absolutely do). Such modes are ideal for kids and pets.

A 12MP image will be too big to view on even a 4K display and will be downscaled. This then means you can zoom in and not lose detail - indeed it's required to see the detail in the image!
Apart from on cameras sold to uninformed buyers attracted by the highest pixel count sensor, 12MP is almost a defacto standard for UHD/4K video, especially when the sensor is a 4:3 aspect ratio type. UHD requires approx. 4000 x 2000 pixels which is achieved on a 4:3 sensor which has a 4000 x 3000, by masking the incoming image onto the sensor. Higher count sensors require rescaling, and real-time Lanczos3 filters have been achieving that for over 10 years now in reasonbly priced cameras.
 

cactustwirly

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As far as I can tell, the term 'optical zoom' on iPhones is a bit of a fudge. They have multiple cameras, each with a fixed zoom (focal length). Rather like an SLR user with several fixed focal length lenses, but no zoom lens.
The zoom on my Pixel is a bit meh, that's supposed to be one of the best smartphones on the market atm.

My 10 year old DSLR still knocks it out of the park in comparison
 

Bantamzen

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I disagree. Although many may never print their 'more successful' pictures*, with an increasingly greater number of people having UHD TVs at home, that has become a convenient viewer for photo collections, usually by plugging in a USB pen drive.
* A very high proportion of pictures on smartphones never leave the phone' s internal memory, and are ditched with the phone at the end of its 2-4 year life.
I suspect the use of USB drives to transfer picture to another device for viewing is very much reduced these days. Most people will just use the primary device to view them, or where devices can be linked cast via WiFi to other devices. And although many pictures will never leave the host devices, there are plenty of storage solutions from social media to cloud backup services that allow pictures to move with accounts rather than devices.
 

dangie

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….. there are plenty of storage solutions from social media to cloud backup services that allow pictures to move with accounts rather than devices.
Digital image files when compared to film negatives are far better for longevity (in theory) as they can be easily copied and backed up to external storage. A film negative is just that, a single negative. However in practice I’d guess that most users of phone cameras never back up their images, either to an external drive or cloud storage. Come the day when their phone packs up or is lost, so are all their photo memories. At least with film negatives they may hopefully be in a box in the back of a cupboard.

I am a member of a photography club. Over the years we have had members whose computers have packed up and they’ve lost all their images as they have never bothered to back them up. If enthusiastic photographers haven’t backed up their images I’m pretty sure most phone camera users don’t either. Storage solutions are cheap nowadays so it’s silly not to use them. Of course this is something you don’t think of until it happens…….
 

Bletchleyite

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As far as I can tell, the term 'optical zoom' on iPhones is a bit of a fudge. They have multiple cameras, each with a fixed zoom (focal length). Rather like an SLR user with several fixed focal length lenses, but no zoom lens.

It would indeed appear this is the case. Learn something new every day! Thus I guess it blends digital and optical zoom - and does it quite effectively!
 

jon0844

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All my digital photos going back 20+ years are on Google Photos and most are on Amazon too as a backup. This means I can view them anywhere. I can edit and share with ease.

I do also have local backups, but probably not bang up to date - which does mean if Google and Amazon one day shut down their services without notice (say a dystopian future where the Internet is suddenly restricted by a Government) then I'd be stuffed without ensuring a consistent backup plan.

Of course, while there are risks with digital photos, the alternative has just as big risks - like losing your printed photos in a fire, or them being lost/stolen, or fading etc.
 

birchesgreen

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I back up using iCloud, Google, Facebook and also memory sticks.

I should be fine barring a world wide thermonuclear war. :lol:
 

bearhugger

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The zoom on my Pixel is a bit meh, that's supposed to be one of the best smartphones on the market atm.

My 10 year old DSLR still knocks it out of the park in comparison
I have a Pixel 4A and have to agree about the zoom quality. I tend to take my Canon DSLR out with me if I think I'm going to need to zoom into something. I have bought a software program called Affinity Photo which comes with a one-off payment for the license and occasionally does a sale. Much better than the subscription for Photoshop.
 

AM9

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I have a Pixel 4A and have to agree about the zoom quality. I tend to take my Canon DSLR out with me if I think I'm going to need to zoom into something. I have bought a software program called Affinity Photo which comes with a one-off payment for the license and occasionally does a sale. Much better than the subscription for Photoshop.
Yup, bought that at the annual photographic show at the the NEC about 8-10 years ago. A perpetual licence for £25.
 

Lucan

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Digital image files when compared to film negatives are far better for longevity (in theory) as they can be easily copied and backed up to external storage. A film negative is just that, a single negative.
But you can copy a negative (or print) just like you can copy a digital file.

As far as the original negative, print or digital file are concerned, I have negatives and prints (B&W of course) of family up to 120 years old and they look like new. However, digital media is known to decay physically - magnetic data loses magnetism and CDs decay. Cloud companies have been known to go bust.

There is also the issue of "respect" for old images. I cannot imagine my descendents bothering to salvage the digital files (pictures or documents) that I will leave behind, whether on my PC hard drive or cloud (even if they are allowed to access the latter). On the other hand they are more likely to look at and keep a physical print-out or a photo, especially if it is found in a frame.
 

AM9

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But you can copy a negative (or print) just like you can copy a digital file.

As far as the original negative, print or digital file are concerned, I have negatives and prints (B&W of course) of family up to 120 years old and they look like new. However, digital media is known to decay physically - magnetic data loses magnetism and CDs decay. Cloud companies have been known to go bust.

There is also the issue of "respect" for old images. I cannot imagine my descendents bothering to salvage the digital files (pictures or documents) that I will leave behind, whether on my PC hard drive or cloud (even if they are allowed to access the latter). On the other hand they are more likely to look at and keep a physical print-out or a photo, especially if it is found in a frame.
There's no reason why future generation won't be able to access digital versions of your current collection, unless you are as negligent as those who stuffed their negatives in the loft which with it's increasing high temperature excursions or in a box at the back of a damp garage, have slowly decayed.
 

Tetchytyke

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I’ve got a Canon bridge camera and an iPhone 13. The iPhone 13 is good, but the Canon is better for photos.

(Shamelessly attaching snaps from TT)
 

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WelshBluebird

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The iPhone 13 is good, but the Canon is better for photos.
But as was my question earlier on in the thread, how many people actually need the better camera now? Phones have got good enough for the vast majority of people's use cases.
There's no reason why future generation won't be able to access digital versions of your current collection, unless you are as negligent as those who stuffed their negatives in the loft which with it's increasing high temperature excursions or in a box at the back of a damp garage, have slowly decayed.
I'd argue it is a lot easier to be negligent in the way you describe. At least with negatives / prints the physical thing is a reminder of what it is. Whereas with digital versions, a box of optical discs or a hard drive or whatever doesn't give clues of what it contains so is much more likely to be left in storage (I'd also say especially with cloud storage, the ownership of accounts especially when people pass away etc is going to be a bit issue in coming years).
 
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