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Photo card for a weekly rail ticket

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185

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I think TfL scrapped the need for photo cards with weekly Travelcards some time on the early 2000s (before the mass move to Oyster) but iirc it was reintroduced at some point.

I am quite sure there was a post on here some days ago which seems to have vanished. Not sure if it related to TfL or one of the TOCs but it mentioned they withdrew the need for photocards for Weekly Tickets, then reintroduced them due to transferring/passing taking place. This would potentially be quite relevant to the OP - Passengers have responded to me, with the reason "I thought some time ago they said you didn't need one." Would be interested to know if it was a TOC, or just TfL & Metrolink.
 
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najaB

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This would potentially be quite relevant to the OP - Passengers have responded to me, with the reason "I thought some time ago they said you didn't need one."
Except that you need to enter a photo card number when purchasing a weekly ticket at a TVM. It leads back to the reasonable person's answer to "Why are they asking for a photo card number?"
 

jimbo99

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The railway doesn't really help itself. If an inspector gets as far as asking to see your ticket, then it would be best if they ask to see railcards/photocards/whatever. Sends out a message to all pax in the vicinity that things are taken seriously. For the past 3 years, I've had a gold card just for the purposes of getting discounted tickets. Never once has anyone ever asked to see it when checking my tickets bought with the discount. I'm not talking busy trains where there isn't time.... Just all seems a bit slapdash.

A few years ago I had a 16-25 railcard by virtue of being a mature student. The ticket machine would only Network Card discounted tickets. I complained to an RPI as he was inspecting. He said "oh just buy Network Card discounted tickets - the discount is the same". Nobody ever asked to see my railcard. But I suppose if I was given a penalty/reported for buying a ticket without the supporting railcard, some on here would say it was all my fault for pushing the button that says I have a particular railcard when I didn't.

Incidentally, it seems my TfL issued annual bus/tram pass (issued on Oyster) doesn't need a photocard.
 

andrew bryce

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So here is an update. I received a letter asking to confirm it was me which I did and explain what happened. I put forward by case and today got a new letter asking for a payment of £139.50. £135.00 towards their costs so far and a sum of £4.50 being the fair avoided.

I am totally flabbergasted at this. I would like to know where south eastern are getting this £135.00 from?
 

_toommm_

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So here is an update. I received a letter asking to confirm it was me which I did and explain what happened. I put forward by case and today got a new letter asking for a payment of £139.50. £135.00 towards their costs so far and a sum of £4.50 being the fair avoided.

I am totally flabbergasted at this. I would like to know where south eastern are getting this £135.00 from?

Costs for investigating, trying to establish the facts etc. - you've actually got off quite lightly with that, and I would wholeheartedly suggest paying it ASAP.
 

furlong

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I am totally flabbergasted at this. I would like to know where south eastern are getting this £135.00 from?

Ask them for a breakdown if you're concerned. (Though the pragmatic approach might be to pay and challenge it later.) The franchise agreement doesn't provide for the company to charge penalties (except the system of Penalty Fares not applicable here) and the position of the criminal courts seems to be that an enforceable settlement would put the party that has made a loss through crime back into the same position it would have been in had the offence not been committed - this seems to be the normal mechanism used to justify charges like these. (A party should not use criminal prosecutions to make profit.) Finally there could be a contractual element to charges if, for example, someone agreed in advance to extra charges if they failed to make an agreed payment by a certain date.
 

Hadders

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I would pay the fee to make the matter go away and move on.
 

Fawkes Cat

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The advice to settle for £139.50 is very good. When you first posted here, you told us:

I have been buying a weekly rail ticket for like 15 years. Lost photo card years ago and never got it replaced as never knew you actually needed one.

We pointed out that without a photo card, your season tickets had not been valid.

Now, you tell us

I (...) today got a new letter asking for a payment of £139.50. £135.00 towards their costs so far and a sum of £4.50 being the fair avoided.

So the railway is only asking you for one day's fare (plus costs of £135). But on the basis of what you have told us, the railway could ask you for the fare for several years - so maybe 250 times as much for each year for the fare - rather over a thousand pounds for each year. Plus the costs of £135.

My view is that the railway is making you a very generous offer indeed. Accept it before they change their mind.
 

furlong

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My view is that the railway is making you a very generous offer indeed.

Not necessarily. Neither side can really be sure how a court would address the question of compensation if the case was widened to cover a longer period of time as you suggest, and the train company might prefer not to have a court examine what might be considered a mere technicality. (I.e. the compensation required to put the company back into the same financial position as it would have been in had the crime not occurred might be argued to be zero - it still received the same amount of money.)
 

Fawkes Cat

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Not necessarily. Neither side can really be sure how a court would address the question of compensation if the case was widened to cover a longer period of time as you suggest, and the train company might prefer not to have a court examine what might be considered a mere technicality. (I.e. the compensation required to put the company back into the same financial position as it would have been in had the crime not occurred might be argued to be zero - it still received the same amount of money.)

- In this case, we can be certain - or as near to certain as to make no difference. The railway are currently offering to settle for a fare of £4.50 plus expenses. They could reduce the fare they are looking for by £4.50. Or they could increase it by some hundreds of times. The court (should this case go so far) could do the same. The OP could face a much worse result, or a marginally better one. I stand by my advice.
 

island

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So here is an update. I received a letter asking to confirm it was me which I did and explain what happened. I put forward by case and today got a new letter asking for a payment of £139.50. £135.00 towards their costs so far and a sum of £4.50 being the fair avoided.

I am totally flabbergasted at this. I would like to know where south eastern are getting this £135.00 from?
The cost is a reasonable estimate of the apportionment of the train company’s expenses in detecting, investigating and dealing with criminals such as yourself. Some of the elements of this cost are the wages of revenue inspectors, the clerks issuing correspondence, and the prosecutors, the occupancy costs on the offices they use, and the postage, stationery, and other miscellaneous scrivenery costs.

They are not obliged to provide a breakdown or justification of the costs to you, and you are not obliged to pay them – but if you choose not to, you may be prosecuted for one or more of the offences you committed.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Whilst undoubtedly the simplest, least stressful and least risky approach is to accept the settlement and pay it, I'm actually somewhat in doubt of whether the TOC has a case.

They cannot impose a Penalty Fare as that was not originally done from what we have been told, and Penalty Fares cannot be given after the traveller has left the railway (well, perhaps whilst they are attempting to leave, but certainly not days or weeks afterwards).

I don't see that they have any grounds to pursue a RoRA prosecution, as they have no evidence that the fare has not been paid or that any fare has been avoided (or attempted to be avoided). The fact that no photocard was used in conjunction with the ticket is really an irrelavnce - S5(3)(a) of RoRA is about whether or not the fare has previously been paid. This is not about OP having a child-rate ticket, or a Railcard discounted ticket when they held no Railcard. They held a season ticket which was itself valid (in date, correct route etc.) - they merely did not have a photocard. I think the TOC would find this a risky case to try and take to Court, seeing as there is no evidence of any financial loss (or fare not paid).

Byelaw 18 would therefore usually offer the 'back-stop' in a situation like this where the passenger has paid their fare but the ticket is still considered invalid. It is a fairly unusual "grey" zone, to be honest. The thing is - Byelaw 18 is unlawful in my view. It is secondary legislation that attempts to modify primary legislation, and that is not permitted, except where specifically authorised by the delegating primary legislation. There is no Act that I am aware of that permits Byelaw 18 to effectively change RoRA such as to remove the requirement to prove intent, and hence Byelaw 18 cannot be valid in the absence of such an Act.

Would a challenge on the above lines be easy? By no means. In fact it may well cost significantly more than simply paying the settlement offered now (if you are still found guilty and don't wish to appeal, for example) and it would almost certainly involve a lot of stress - but there is a distinct possibility that, if you pursue it correctly, you would end up no worse than you are now, and that you could avoid paying the settlement. There may well be enterprising solicitors who would be happy to take on a case here, either pro bono or on the basis of recovering their costs from the TOC if and when the case is won.

If you're hesitant around paying the settlement I would contact a few criminal defence solicitors and see if you can arrange a free consultation with them. I would imagine most high-street solicitors would not really be interested by something like this which is itself unusual (railway prosecutions are less common than motoring prosecutions for example), and perhaps a risk for them (if the Magistrate who deals with the matter doesn't fully understand the points being made, and therefore finds OP guilty).

Ultimately, it is up to the OP as to whether they wish to take the "easy" route by paying the settlement offered (but which they know will cost them £140 odd which there is a good argument to say they should not be paying), or whether they want to end the 'tyranny' of Byelaw 18 by challenging its mere existence, a riskier and more stressful approach, but one that could see them get "one over" the TOCs and, more importantly, hopefully not out of pocket.
 

_toommm_

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Whilst undoubtedly the simplest, least stressful and least risky approach is to accept the settlement and pay it, I'm actually somewhat in doubt of whether the TOC has a case.

They cannot impose a Penalty Fare as that was not originally done from what we have been told, and Penalty Fares cannot be given after the traveller has left the railway (well, perhaps whilst they are attempting to leave, but certainly not days or weeks afterwards).

I don't see that they have any grounds to pursue a RoRA prosecution, as they have no evidence that the fare has not been paid or that any fare has been avoided (or attempted to be avoided). The fact that no photocard was used in conjunction with the ticket is really an irrelavnce - S5(3)(a) of RoRA is about whether or not the fare has previously been paid. This is not about OP having a child-rate ticket, or a Railcard discounted ticket when they held no Railcard. They held a season ticket which was itself valid (in date, correct route etc.) - they merely did not have a photocard. I think the TOC would find this a risky case to try and take to Court, seeing as there is no evidence of any financial loss (or fare not paid).

Byelaw 18 would therefore usually offer the 'back-stop' in a situation like this where the passenger has paid their fare but the ticket is still considered invalid. It is a fairly unusual "grey" zone, to be honest. The thing is - Byelaw 18 is unlawful in my view. It is secondary legislation that attempts to modify primary legislation, and that is not permitted, except where specifically authorised by the delegating primary legislation. There is no Act that I am aware of that permits Byelaw 18 to effectively change RoRA such as to remove the requirement to prove intent, and hence Byelaw 18 cannot be valid in the absence of such an Act.

Would a challenge on the above lines be easy? By no means. In fact it may well cost significantly more than simply paying the settlement offered now (if you are still found guilty and don't wish to appeal, for example) and it would almost certainly involve a lot of stress - but there is a distinct possibility that, if you pursue it correctly, you would end up no worse than you are now, and that you could avoid paying the settlement. There may well be enterprising solicitors who would be happy to take on a case here, either pro bono or on the basis of recovering their costs from the TOC if and when the case is won.

If you're hesitant around paying the settlement I would contact a few criminal defence solicitors and see if you can arrange a free consultation with them. I would imagine most high-street solicitors would not really be interested by something like this which is itself unusual (railway prosecutions are less common than motoring prosecutions for example), and perhaps a risk for them (if the Magistrate who deals with the matter doesn't fully understand the points being made, and therefore finds OP guilty).

Ultimately, it is up to the OP as to whether they wish to take the "easy" route by paying the settlement offered (but which they know will cost them £140 odd which there is a good argument to say they should not be paying), or whether they want to end the 'tyranny' of Byelaw 18 by challenging its mere existence, a riskier and more stressful approach, but one that could see them get "one over" the TOCs and, more importantly, hopefully not out of pocket.

But what's to say that the season ticket belongs to the OP? Whether purposeful or not, there could be an element of fraud in that there is no specific photocard for the ticket, so it could have been passed round. Not having a photocard could be seen as an attempt to bypass the restrictions of not sharing or transferring tickets.
 

alistairlees

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Interestingly, neither my smartcard ticket nor the Gold Record Card that accompanies it make any mention of the Photocard number. It did in its paper form however.
That would be because smartcards don't require a photocard (or photo, except for children on some TOCs at least).
 

alistairlees

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AFAIK photocard have always been required for a National Rail issued weekly

I think there was a time when they weren't, but it was a few years ago and I can't remember when. It doesn't matter, though; photocards are required now (and have been for at least a few years). A condition of having the weekly season ticket is having a photocard. Not really that hard to grasp.
 

yorkie

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I think there was a time when they weren't, but it was a few years ago and I can't remember when. It doesn't matter, though; photocards are required now (and have been for at least a few years). A condition of having the weekly season ticket is having a photocard. Not really that hard to grasp.
Agreed.

I would pay the fee to make the matter go away and move on.
Agreed.

@andrew bryce get in touch if there is any further update.

Until then, I will close this thread

If anyone wishes to discuss the requirements (or lack of!) for photocards for any product, or the history of such requirements, feel free to create a thread for that purpose (I have removed a post about Senior Railcards because it doesn't belong in this thread; that discussion would require a new thread to be created).
 
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