Places that don't really fit in their region

[anti-pacer]

Some places in this country are in regions that don't geographically make sense. For example, Glossop in Derbyshire. Officially part of the East Midlands but only represented at government level. Utilities, media, transport and its location point to the North West.

Another region that doesn't fully fit part of its area is the East of England. Hertfordshire is not, in my mind, in the East. South East yes, as neighbouring Buckinghamshire is, but not East. The same probably applies to Bedfordshire.

Cheshire is another odd one. Despite its close proximity to both Liverpool and Manchester, much of the county is further south than most of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire, all of which are in the East Midlands. Even parts of Staffordshire are further north. Geographically speaking I have always seen Cheshire as more a Midland county than a Northern one, apart from the very north of it.

Do regions need to follow county boundaries? Could politically a county be in more than one region (i.e. Derbyshire) or would it create logistical problems?

Do you live in a region that geographically doesn't really represent where you live?

 

[meridian2]

Good question. Scunthorpe is in Lincolnshire, a county in the East Midlands, but is at a higher latitude than Manchester and up there with Huddersfield, both of which are undoubtedly The North. Where do the East Mids stop in an easterly direction? Grantham is assuredly the Midlands but the Fens start at Spalding, which like Kings Lynn have more in common with East Anglia. Is Oxford in the South, or a Midland town? I agree on Glossop, which is in the High Peak and basically a satellite Manchester Mill town, but is Buxton in the Midlands or the North?

 

[Senex]

I agree on Glossop, which is in the High Peak and basically a satellite Manchester Mill town, but is Buxton in the Midlands or the North?

I'd have said that, like Glossop, Buxton looks towards Manchester for transport, cultural centre, old industrial links, etc, as does Macclesfield, and that the boundary between North-West and Midlands falls between Macclesfield and Congleton (looking more towards the Potteries) and between Buxton and Ashbourne/Chesterfield.

But where does Sheffield belong? Is it East Midlands, and if so, is today's South Yorkshire really East Midlands? Or is it really just pure Yorkshire?

 

[DarloRich]

Uk - doesn't really fit with Europe

 

[anti-pacer]

Good question. Scunthorpe is in Lincolnshire, a county in the East Midlands, but is at a higher latitude than Manchester and up there with Huddersfield, both of which are undoubtedly The North. Where do the East Mids stop in an easterly direction? Grantham is assuredly the Midlands but the Fens start at Spalding, which like Kings Lynn have more in common with East Anglia. Is Oxford in the South, or a Midland town? I agree on Glossop, which is in the High Peak and basically a satellite Manchester Mill town, but is Buxton in the Midlands or the North?

Oxford is most definitely south. I wouldn't say South East but it's certainly not Midlands. It's on a latitude with parts of south Herts.

Banbury however, where I once lived, was often considered to be Midlands. When I lived there I got BBC Newsroom South East (now BBC South Today), and at the station there were Network South East signs everywhere. My water supply was Thames Water, the same as they get in London, but electricity was Midlands Electricity for all of Banbury (before you could choose). The police is Thames Valley along with the rest of Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Bucks, and the ambulance service is South Central which covers as far south as Hampshire.

Lincolnshire is an odd one. North, and North East Lincolnshire actually fall under the Yorkshire & Humber region, whereas the rest of Lincolnshire is all East Midlands. That said, Scunthorpe and Grimsby are served by East Midlands Ambulance NHS Trust.

 

[meridian2]

But where does Sheffield belong? Is it East Midlands, and if so, is today's South Yorkshire really East Midlands? Or is it really just pure Yorkshire?

Sheffield is in Yorkshire, so definitely the North. Mansfield is undoubtedly the East Midlands. The villages in between - what used to be known as The Dukeries - seem to have a schizophrenic relationship with both.

Accent is a reasonable guide to allegiance, though not infallible. For example parts of Essex and Kent are miles from London, but as Cockney as Bow. Going West by a similar distance few people would describe Reading as London even in these commuting times. I used to know people in Long Eaton in the Erewash Valley, and roughly half saw Derby as their natural centre in terms of family, shopping, football allegiances, and the other half saw Nottingham as their instinctive orbit.

 

[anti-pacer]

I'd have said that, like Glossop, Buxton looks towards Manchester for transport, cultural centre, old industrial links, etc, as does Macclesfield, and that the boundary between North-West and Midlands falls between Macclesfield and Congleton (looking more towards the Potteries) and between Buxton and Ashbourne/Chesterfield.

But where does Sheffield belong? Is it East Midlands, and if so, is today's South Yorkshire really East Midlands? Or is it really just pure Yorkshire?

Sheffield and South Yorkshire are definitely not East Midlands. I don't really think places like Dronfield, Worksop, Retford, and Gainsborough are either, although officially they are.

To me, geographically the Midlands starts at Mansfield in the east, and just above Crewe and Congleton in the west.

 

[meridian2]

Some places defy regional association. Are the Cotswolds West Midlands or South West? Oswestry is somewhere between the North West, the Potteries, Shropshire which is in the West Midlands, and Wales.

 

[anti-pacer]

Some places defy regional association. Are the Cotswolds West Midlands or South West? Oswestry is somewhere between the North West, the Potteries, Shropshire which is in the West Midlands, and Wales.

The Cotswolds are both. Some of it falls under Warwickshire and Worcestershire, so West Midlands. Some comes under Oxfordshire so South East, and the bulk of it is in Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, so South West. On the short (ish) trip from Banbury to Stow, if you went a certain way you could cover all three regions.

Gloucestershire is a hotly disputed one but it's definitely South West. I think the South basically is anywhere south of (and including) Moreton-in-Marsh, Banbury, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Royston, Saffron Walden and Ipswich.

 

[DarloRich]

The Cotswolds are both. Some of it falls under Warwickshire and Worcestershire, so West Midlands. Some comes under Oxfordshire so South East, and the bulk of it is in Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, so South West. On the short (ish) trip from Banbury to Stow, if you went a certain way you could cover all three regions.

Gloucestershire is a hotly disputed one but it's definitely South West. I think the South basically is anywhere south of (and including) Moreton-in-Marsh, Banbury, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Royston, Saffron Walden and Ipswich.

Some places defy regional association. Are the Cotswolds West Midlands or South West? Oswestry is somewhere between the North West, the Potteries, Shropshire which is in the West Midlands, and Wales.

No they don't. All of those places you mention are in the south. South of Doncaster = Cockneys.

 

[anti-pacer]

No they don't. All of those places you mention are in the south. South of Doncaster = Cockneys.

....just because you come from Scotland! North of Scotch Corner, DarloMcRich.

 

[anti-pacer]

Scotland and North East England is an odd one. When people refer to "North of the Border" they mean Scotland obviously, but much of Southern Scotland is further south than much of North East England.

If you look at Scotland's most southerly point, the Mull of Galloway I believe, it's on the same latitude as Hartlepool almost. The most northerly point of England is on the same latitude as East Kilbride.

One of my exes came from Ashington and I used to call her Scottish. It used to wind her up! I used to tell her she was north of Hadrian's Wall and that her local chippy sold haggis for a reason.

 

[meridian2]

The Cotswolds are both. Some of it falls under Warwickshire and Worcestershire, so West Midlands. Some comes under Oxfordshire so South East, and the bulk of it is in Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, so South West. On the short (ish) trip from Banbury to Stow, if you went a certain way you could cover all three regions.

Gloucestershire is a hotly disputed one but it's definitely South West. I think the South basically is anywhere south of (and including) Moreton-in-Marsh, Banbury, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Royston, Saffron Walden and Ipswich.

Not sure the place people pay council tax to represents their spiritual home, or there'd be no white rose flags flying in Saddleworth. North, south, east and west don't always follow straight lines. Regional identity is often about industry, lines of communication and tradition.

 

[AM9]

... Accent is a reasonable guide to allegiance, though not infallible. For example parts of Essex and Kent are miles from London, but as Cockney as Bow. Going West by a similar distance few people would describe Reading as London even in these commuting times. ...

The problem with using accent as a guide is that London populations, in particular, have since the 1930s created overspill towns in order to accommodate the ever increasing population. Take Andover, Banbury, Northampton, Peterborough, Corby, Gainsborough, - even Milton Keynes. All of those places are considered to be London overspill towns because they ingested a large number of (particularly young) Londoners, but they certainly aren't considered geographically part of London or the home counties. These large population shifts, have modified local accents, particularly when compounded by the cultural influences of the capital and the home counties*.

* - Milton Keynes is in Buckinghamshire but at its most northerly extreme.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Is Milton Keynes in the South Midlands or the South East?

 

[DarloRich]

Is Milton Keynes in the South Midlands or the South East?

the south.

 

[Senex]

Sheffield and South Yorkshire are definitely not East Midlands. I don't really think places like Dronfield, Worksop, Retford, and Gainsborough are either, although officially they are.

To me, geographically the Midlands starts at Mansfield in the east, and just above Crewe and Congleton in the west.

I agree with all of that.

And yet the north-western bit of Derbyshire -- and I don 't think anyone is going to say that the county of Derbyshire is in the North-West -- that "sticks up" beyond the rest of the county continues past the whole of South Yorkshire and has a short border with West Yorkshire.

Clappers has suggested the significance of accent. I'd be inclined to agree, though I'd argue that it's not just accent but everything that is involved in dialect that should be taken into account.

 

[backontrack]

Places like Barrow, Windermere and Coniston used to be in Lancashire. That doesn't make much sense when you think about it - they feel really Cumbrian.

 

[meridian2]

I agree with all of that.

And yet the north-western bit of Derbyshire -- and I don 't think anyone is going to say that the county of Derbyshire is in the North-West -- that "sticks up" beyond the rest of the county continues past the whole of South Yorkshire and has a short border with West Yorkshire.

Clappers has suggested the significance of accent. I'd be inclined to agree, though I'd argue that it's not just accent but everything that is involved in dialect that should be taken into account.

York is the county town and city capital of Yorkshire, but in many ways one of the less typical Yorkshire places, and becoming more so. Accents are a strange one, Todmorden straddles the Lancashire-Yorkshire border, but its accent is Lancastrian. There are parts of South Derbyshire/South Staffordshire where Brummie, Stoke and East Midlands accents are separated by the width of a field, at least to outside ears. Locals are more tuned to nuance. An old college pal used to say his mother (both Bow Bells Cockneys) could tell which part of London someone was from before WW2. Impossible to imagine now. I didn't know Sussex had an accent that was indistinguishable from Estuary until I met some young umpteen generation rural folk. To my ears their voices sounded more West Country than anything.

 

[anti-pacer]

Is Milton Keynes in the South Midlands or the South East?

South East. The South Midlands don't officially exist, although the term is used for some purposes, even a government one called the "South Midlands Growth Area" which includes Milton Keynes, and even as far south as Luton.

MK is on the same latitude as Banbury, but both are the northern extremities of the South East. Whenever I travel down the M1 and pass the "Buckinghamshire" sign before Newport Pagnell, I think I'm "down south". I think the same passing Wolverton on the WCML, Sandy on the ECML, and Bedford on the MML.

 

[anti-pacer]

I agree with all of that.

And yet the north-western bit of Derbyshire -- and I don 't think anyone is going to say that the county of Derbyshire is in the North-West -- that "sticks up" beyond the rest of the county continues past the whole of South Yorkshire and has a short border with West Yorkshire.

Clappers has suggested the significance of accent. I'd be inclined to agree, though I'd argue that it's not just accent but everything that is involved in dialect that should be taken into account.

I can actually see the location of the short border between West Yorkshire and Derbyshire from my flat in Wakefield. Well, I can see Holme Moss transmitter which is close.

It's an odd feeling travelling down a road with "WY Metro" bus stops and a few minutes later being in a county that borders Leicestershire! It doesn't feel East Midlands though, probably because geographically speaking it isn't.

It's the same with Nottinghamshire. The whole of the Bassetlaw district doesn't feel Yorkshire (because it isn't), but doesn't feel East Midlands either.

 

[northwichcat]

But where does Sheffield belong? Is it East Midlands, and if so, is today's South Yorkshire really East Midlands? Or is it really just pure Yorkshire?

Officially Sheffield is Yorkshire & Humber and Chesterfield is East Midlands but you wouldn't think you'd changed regions by going from Sheffield to Chesterfield.

 

[jonathan01n]

Grimsby, although it is in Lincolnshire, is not policed by Lincolnshire police. It shares the same police force as Hull. Another case is Derby, it did serve by East Midlands trains and it is in East Midlands however it is closer to Staffordshire which is West Midlands. Derby is close to Alton Towers, it is around a 30minute drive.

 

[meridian2]

I can actually see the location of the short border between West Yorkshire and Derbyshire from my flat in Wakefield. Well, I can see Holme Moss transmitter which is close.

Holme Moss was historically the boundary of Cheshire and the West Riding. Hard to imagine pastoral Cheshire as peat bog almost 2000ft high. There's an old stone sign at the bottom of Holme Moss, Yorkshire side quite some distance north of the present boundary, which shows a historic Derbyshire border. Derbyshire ended in Holmebridge it seems.

 

[DarloRich]

surely we need to look at where communication links run. For instance, You might be in say, Derbyshire but have bus/trains/roads that run into Yorkshire. Your "commuter flow"
or commercial intercourse might be towards Sheffield rather than Nottingham etc.

I think regions must stand apart from county or local authority boundaries and be more fluid than that.

 

[anti-pacer]

Grimsby, although it is in Lincolnshire, is not policed by Lincolnshire police. It shares the same police force as Hull. Another case is Derby, it did serve by East Midlands trains and it is in East Midlands however it is closer to Staffordshire which is West Midlands. Derby is close to Alton Towers, it is around a 30minute drive.

Grimsby, although being in the ceremonial county of Lincolnshire, isn't governed in any way by Lincolnshire. It's in the North East Lincolnshire unitary authority, formerly Humberside. It is in the Yorkshire & Humber region, and is served by Humberside Police, Humberside Fire Service, but strangely East Midlands Ambulance and they get ANGLIAN Water!

Derby is well and truly East Midlands, despite not being far from Staffordshire. Nearby Burton is in Staffordshire, but is often considered as part of the East Midlands due to its eastern location and proximity to Derby.

 

[EM2]

Hertfordshire is very wide though. The western border is almost at Aylesbury and pushes an arm into Buckinghamshire (definitely not in the east) but the eastern border almost abuts the M11 and pushes quite substantially into the west side of Essex (definitely in the east).

 

[meridian2]

surely we need to look at where communication links run. For instance, You might be in say, Derbyshire but have bus/trains/roads that run into Yorkshire. Your "commuter flow"
or commercial intercourse might be towards Sheffield rather than Nottingham etc.

Distance commuting and brownfield work sites have redefined regional allegiances to a large extent. Factors like the quality of schools are as important to deciding where to live - and to housing market values - as a convenient train service.

Lots of companies have moved to motorway corridors with little previous history as centres of employment, because ground rents are cheap and they're convenient as transport hubs. Without a private car many are completely inaccessible and employees have no identification with the area other than work.

 

[anti-pacer]

Hertfordshire is very wide though. The western border is almost at Aylesbury and pushes an arm into Buckinghamshire (definitely not in the east) but the eastern border almost abuts the M11 and pushes quite substantially into the west side of Essex (definitely in the east).

Bedfordshire, Essex and Hertfordshire were moved out of the South East region back in 1998 I believe. The East Anglia region which included Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk was disbanded and the new East of England region formed, which also included the three counties moved out of the South East. London also became a region in its own right.

Now I'm not sure what the reason was, but if I lived in Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Tring, etc, I think I'd have little affinity to places like Cromer, Norwich and Great Yarmouth.

Hertfordshire is geographically southern.

 

[DarloRich]

Distance commuting and brownfield work sites have redefined regional allegiances to a large extent. Factors like the quality of schools are as important to deciding where to live - and to housing market values - as a convenient train service.

Lots of companies have moved to motorway corridors with little previous history as centres of employment, because ground rents are cheap and they're convenient as transport hubs. Without a private car many are completely inaccessible and employees have no identification with the area other than work.

employment prospects also play a part. I am proud to be from the north east but have had to move south for work. I will never be southern. After all someone has to show them what hard work is!