Places that lost their Railway that now seem cut off

[Gareth Marston]

Very likely - but the 4 lines that ran into the town , were carrying in total about 300 passengers a day before closure. (according to a book on the Cambrian) - and the economics were always on the "difficult" side I suggest. It would have been good if at least one of the routes had survived - possibly the Hereford line , but closed in an era of declining rural population and car usage increasing exponentially , it was doomed.

Yet at Llanidloes a third the size of Brecon the Town Council objected to closure on the basis that 100 tickets a day were being issued. I'd certainly take any figures except source material with a pinch of salt. Without doubt British Railways Board over egged the pudding and made up a fair degree of the claimed losses that were fed to the TUCC inquiries, the Brecon inquiry in 62 made a big play about "weak bridges" yet the working tt for the Mid Wales shows only one bridge on the line had a speed restriction on it less than normal line speed. A few years later BR were sending Type 2 Diesels over it on cement trains. The unions said that 200 men lost their jobs as a result of the Mid Wales line closing and given that there were 15 signal boxes on the line and no fewer than 5 sets of locos and coaches used in operating the passenger service there was plenty of scope for cutting costs.

It would never have been profitable but some sensible cost reduction and improved timetables using DMU's would have boosted income maybe to a point that the losses would be acceptable in a world that wanted to keep places connected to the rail system.

 

[Bevan Price]

Brecon has been mentioned, but it was a difficult town to serve by rail. The nearest large town is Merthyr Tydfil, almost 14 miles away (as the crow flies), but the Brecon Beacons are in the way. The rail route was indirect - about 24 miles, with some severe gradients, and with little more than small towns or villages on the route. Moreover, you had to change at Pontiscill Junction to get to/from Merthyr.

Then, if you look at pre-closure timetables, it is easy to see why it did not achieve a good traffic potential. From the 1958 timetable, the first southbound train from Brecon was at 07:35 to Newport (47 miles, arrive 10:04.) Connections reached Merthyr at 09:04, and Cardiff Queen Street at 09:47.

So - totally useless for anyone wanting to commute to work.

The return service was not much better. The last return connection from Merthyr was at 16:15 , with a (SO) service at 20:05. Returning from Newport, you had trains at 15:00 then 18:55 (Cardiff Queen St. connections at 14:33 and 18:55) . So, maybe alright for a shopping trip, but no use if you wanted to go to evening entertainment in Cardiff or Newport.

Brecon to Hereford was 38½ miles, with only villages & small towns on the route. The first train was 06:50 from Brecon, 08:30 into Hereford. So, a possible, but slow commute into Hereford was available. Unfortunately, afternoon return services from Hereford were at 16:05, 18:55 (SX), and 20:55 (SO) - not very attractive for working commuters, although it might just have been useful for some schoolchildren.

Brecon to Neath was 33 miles, with the only departures at 08:05 (SO), 11:00 and 18:20, returning from Neath at 08:25, 11:25 (SO) and 16:10. Again, not likely to attract many passengers.

Brecon to Moat Lane Junction was 60 miles through lightly-populated countryside - with 2 through trains each way, and one connecting service requiring 30+ minute waits at Builth Wells - a definite basket case.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I think I posted this somewhere previously, but cannot find it:

Towns without stations.

The "official" definitions of towns & their boundaries have changed over the years, especially in the 1974 reorganisation (Whitehall meddling) in which various towns & villages were lumped together into metropolitan boroughs or other units deemed an "ideal" size by Whitehall. For example, Hanley is a fairly large town with no station, but I could not locate a recent population separate from the combined "City of Stoke On Trent".

Also, information on Wikipedia is not always reliable. The following is an attempt to determine the population of towns, according to "traditional" boundaries, which have no station in or near the "town centre". Separate lists show towns with stations near the edge of the town, and towns with trams but no "mainline" railway station. Populations rounded to the nearest "thousand".

You've missed out Newcastle-Under-Lyme which unlike Hanley is not one of the six towns that makes up the City of Stoke. How large is Eastwood in Nottinghamshire (Langley Mill isn't close enough even if the original station was called Langley Mill and Eastwood.

 

[infobleep]

Brecon has been mentioned, but it was a difficult town to serve by rail. The nearest large town is Merthyr Tydfil, almost 14 miles away (as the crow flies), but the Brecon Beacons are in the way. The rail route was indirect - about 24 miles, with some severe gradients, and with little more than small towns or villages on the route. Moreover, you had to change at Pontiscill Junction to get to/from Merthyr.

Then, if you look at pre-closure timetables, it is easy to see why it did not achieve a good traffic potential. From the 1958 timetable, the first southbound train from Brecon was at 07:35 to Newport (47 miles, arrive 10:04.) Connections reached Merthyr at 09:04, and Cardiff Queen Street at 09:47.

So - totally useless for anyone wanting to commute to work.

The return service was not much better. The last return connection from Merthyr was at 16:15 , with a (SO) service at 20:05. Returning from Newport, you had trains at 15:00 then 18:55 (Cardiff Queen St. connections at 14:33 and 18:55) . So, maybe alright for a shopping trip, but no use if you wanted to go to evening entertainment in Cardiff or Newport.

Brecon to Hereford was 38½ miles, with only villages & small towns on the route. The first train was 06:50 from Brecon, 08:30 into Hereford. So, a possible, but slow commute into Hereford was available. Unfortunately, afternoon return services from Hereford were at 16:05, 18:55 (SX), and 20:55 (SO) - not very attractive for working commuters, although it might just have been useful for some schoolchildren.

Brecon to Neath was 33 miles, with the only departures at 08:05 (SO), 11:00 and 18:20, returning from Neath at 08:25, 11:25 (SO) and 16:10. Again, not likely to attract many passengers.

Brecon to Moat Lane Junction was 60 miles through lightly-populated countryside - with 2 through trains each way, and one connecting service requiring 30+ minute waits at Builth Wells - a definite basket case.

Was that timetable created on purpose so the line could close?

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[steamybrian]

.........................but what about Hailsham. Could that ever have a station or is the bus service really good that it's not required?

Regarding Hailsham..
Polegate- just north of junction -cutting infilled and houses built on top of infill.
Hailsham- immediately south of station site houses now cover the trackbed.
Between Hailsham and Hellingly a housing estate covers a long section of trackbed.
Part of Hailsham station site itself is now a public car park.
Although the Cuckoo Trail cycle path between Polegate and Heathfield follows most of the former trackbed on the sections through the new housing estates it weaves along a narrow path between the houses or along quiet back roads.

Finally- there is a good bus service Eastbourne-Polegate-Hailsham

 

[Gareth Marston]

Was that timetable created on purpose so the line could close?

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A large part of the problem was that they operated services to their pre Grouping boundaries. Moat Lane to Brecon - Cambrian, Brecon to Newport- Brecon & Merthyr, Heteford to Brecon - Midland. However the pre WW1 summer expresses from S Wales to Aberystwyth managed a30 mph average simply by not stoping at every halt and small village.

Some parts had quite good services Llanidloes to Moat Lane Junction had 9 return trips as did Builth Wells to Builth Road Low Level. The average speeds were not that different to other rural lines operated by steam stopping every couple of miles and having to slow for numerous loops and change tokens. The Cambrian Coast was taking 3 hours for 56 miles at the same time. Once all the village goods facilities withdrawn and the passing loops rationalised there were time savings of 25% with 1st generation DMU's.

 

[infobleep]

Regarding Hailsham..
Polegate- just north of junction -cutting infilled and houses built on top of infill.
Hailsham- immediately south of station site houses now cover the trackbed.
Between Hailsham and Hellingly a housing estate covers a long section of trackbed.
Part of Hailsham station site itself is now a public car park.
Although the Cuckoo Trail cycle path between Polegate and Heathfield follows most of the former trackbed on the sections through the new housing estates it weaves along a narrow path between the houses or along quiet back roads.

Finally- there is a good bus service Eastbourne-Polegate-Hailsham

May be it's better down that way but I often find with buses if you want to go on a night out, the buses finish to early, unlike trains.

For example Cranleigh in Surrey has a live music venue but I can't go to any concerts there because the last bus is around 10.30pm.

Saying that I was in Camberley recently and the last train to Guildford from there was 10.39 so not even all train lines finish so late.

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[steamybrian]

Although the subject of this thread is about "places being cut off through closure of of rail lines" it appears that in some cases the bus service now is better than the rail service. Cranleigh in Surrey being a good example where the train service to Guildford at closure in 1965 was only around 5 trains per day.
I was trying to consider places that after train services were withdrawn there were NO bus services or bus services were withdrawn within a few years. I start in the South East at Baynards the next station down the line from Cranleigh. Since the station closed in 1965 are there any buses serving the few houses comprising Baynards..? Did the few inhabitants of Rowfant or Kingscote worry if there were no buses after the stations closed...?.
Grange Road station served the rapidly growing large village of Crawley Down but the buses take far longer to reach the neighbouring places of East Grinstead or Three Bridges than the train prior to closure in 1967.

 

[Mintona]

Ross-on-Wye. Seems a little bit on it's own, a shame really as it's a hugely popular tourist area.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

You've missed out Newcastle-Under-Lyme which unlike Hanley is not one of the six towns that makes up the City of Stoke. How large is Eastwood in Nottinghamshire (Langley Mill isn't close enough even if the original station was called Langley Mill and Eastwood.

Yes but Eastwood has a good bus service to a variety of places and is hardly cut off. If I can't get a convenient direct bus to Langley Mill station I will often get one to Eastwood and walk - it's only 4 bus stops from their to Langley Mill station!
I wouldn't say anywhere in Notts was truly cut off. Probably New Ollerton could be classed as the most isolated town simply because it is so far from anywhere!

 

[yorksrob]

The Romney Marsh doesn't seem to be overly endowed by bus services and since the closure of the branch, Lydd, Lydd on Sea, Greatstone and New Romney seem quite isolated.

 

[davetheguard]

Very likely - but the 4 lines that ran into the town , were carrying in total about 300 passengers a day before closure. (according to a book on the Cambrian) - and the economics were always on the "difficult" side I suggest. It would have been good if at least one of the routes had survived - possibly the Hereford line , but closed in an era of declining rural population and car usage increasing exponentially , it was doomed.

Can you remember the book's title? I'd like to read more about the former railways in the Brecon & Mid Wales area.

 

[davetheguard]

Very likely - but the 4 lines that ran into the town , were carrying in total about 300 passengers a day before closure. (according to a book on the Cambrian) - and the economics were always on the "difficult" side I suggest. It would have been good if at least one of the routes had survived - possibly the Hereford line , but closed in an era of declining rural population and car usage increasing exponentially , it was doomed.

Can you remember the book's title? I'd like to learn more about the former railways in the Brecon and Mid-Wales area.

 

[steamybrian]

The Romney Marsh doesn't seem to be overly endowed by bus services and since the closure of the branch, Lydd, Lydd on Sea, Greatstone and New Romney seem quite isolated.

A quick look at Stagecoach bus timetables daytime reveal-

No. 11 Ashford-Brookland-Lydd-Greatstone- New Romney... approx. hourly
No.100 Dover-Hythe-New Romney-Lydd-Rye-Hastings....approx. hourly
no.101 Dover-Hythe-New Romney-Lydd.....approx. half hourly
No.102 Dover-Hythe-New Romney-Lydd-on-sea ..approx. hourly.

in summary there are 4 buses per hour between Dover and New Romney

... In contrast the Ashford- New Romney train service upon closure in 1967 ran every two hours.

 

[edwin_m]

Was that timetable created on purpose so the line could close?

I'm not familiar with the specific example of Brecon. But there were probably lots of places that had had the same timetable for donkey's years and as well as the inertia of railway management it was also a reflection of the socio-economic situation which existed right up into the 1980s in some places.

Commuting for any distance was largely the preserve of the London "commuter belt" (much smaller than it was now) and a few places around our other cities where there were enough people who could afford to live in leafy suburbs. In a small-to-medium town in somewhere like the Cardiff Valleys, the male workforce would have lived within walking distance of the pit or mill that employed most of them. Most married women would have been what we now call homemakers, with unmarried women also working locally as nurses or teachers.

Thus there was very little demand to travel in or out of most towns - perhaps mostly visiting business travelers, people making family visits (far fewer again as most people lived near where they grew up) and of course the annual exodus to the traditional sea resort during the fortnight of the annual shutdown. So passenger numbers would always have been low and the service pretty desultory by modern standards (except in that holiday period!) with the railway really being about the freight needed for and produced by the local industries. I can't imagine many people in Brecon would have even considered going for an evening out in Cardiff, as this would have been very costly relative to their income and most towns had modest forms of entertainment that were within the means of the working population.

It's only since the Beeching era that a lot of these towns have felt the need for more travel, and those no longer on the rail network have regretted it. The main influence was obviously the disappearance of most of the big industrial employers, most notably during the Thatcher era but also evident before and afterwards. Causes, consequences or coincidental trends would include the increased expectation that women would have their own careers (and therefore more likelihood that one or both of a couple would work a long way from home), spread of property ownership (more difficult to move nearer to work), the expectations of mobility brought about by widespread car ownership and the decline in local facilities in many communities.

In this type of area, those towns still have rail may well have their best ever passenger services, with freight now virtually non-existent, and often act as dormitories for the local large city where service industries produce some degree of prosperity. Many of the places where the railway didn't survive Beeching and hasn't been restored since are now very isolated - in fact they were always pretty isolated but that was less of a problem in past decades.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not familiar with the specific example of Brecon. But there were probably lots of places that had had the same timetable for donkey's years and as well as the inertia of railway management it was also a reflection of the socio-economic situation which existed right up into the 1980s in some places.

Commuting for any distance was largely the preserve of the London "commuter belt" (much smaller than it was now) and a few places around our other cities where there were enough people who could afford to live in leafy suburbs. In a small-to-medium town in somewhere like the Cardiff Valleys, the male workforce would have lived within walking distance of the pit or mill that employed most of them. Most married women would have been what we now call homemakers, with unmarried women also working locally as nurses or teachers.

Thus there was very little demand to travel in or out of most towns - perhaps mostly visiting business travelers, people making family visits (far fewer again as most people lived near where they grew up) and of course the annual exodus to the traditional sea resort during the fortnight of the annual shutdown. So passenger numbers would always have been low and the service pretty desultory by modern standards (except in that holiday period!) with the railway really being about the freight needed for and produced by the local industries. I can't imagine many people in Brecon would have even considered going for an evening out in Cardiff, as this would have been very costly relative to their income and most towns had modest forms of entertainment that were within the means of the working population.

It's only since the Beeching era that a lot of these towns have felt the need for more travel, and those no longer on the rail network have regretted it. The main influence was obviously the disappearance of most of the big industrial employers, most notably during the Thatcher era but also evident before and afterwards. Causes, consequences or coincidental trends would include the increased expectation that women would have their own careers (and therefore more likelihood that one or both of a couple would work a long way from home), spread of property ownership (more difficult to move nearer to work), the expectations of mobility brought about by widespread car ownership and the decline in local facilities in many communities.

In this type of area, those towns still have rail may well have their best ever passenger services, with freight now virtually non-existent, and often act as dormitories for the local large city where service industries produce some degree of prosperity. Many of the places where the railway didn't survive Beeching and hasn't been restored since are now very isolated - in fact they were always pretty isolated but that was less of a problem in past decades.

A very good summary edwin.

 

[infobleep]

Although the subject of this thread is about "places being cut off through closure of of rail lines" it appears that in some cases the bus service now is better than the rail service. Cranleigh in Surrey being a good example where the train service to Guildford at closure in 1965 was only around 5 trains per day.
I was trying to consider places that after train services were withdrawn there were NO bus services or bus services were withdrawn within a few years. I start in the South East at Baynards the next station down the line from Cranleigh. Since the station closed in 1965 are there any buses serving the few houses comprising Baynards..? Did the few inhabitants of Rowfant or Kingscote worry if there were no buses after the stations closed...?.
Grange Road station served the rapidly growing large village of Crawley Down but the buses take far longer to reach the neighbouring places of East Grinstead or Three Bridges than the train prior to closure in 1967.

Good point. However I suspect a train service to Cranleigh would be much better today than in 1965. However they don't think the economics stack up for introducing a train services to there again, given numbers that might use it.

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[infobleep]

Is Southwold and/or Salcombe cut off? The former had its services cut in the 1930s. Not sure about the latter.

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[steamybrian]

Is Southwold and/or Salcombe cut off? The former had its services cut in the 1930s. Not sure about the latter.

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The line between Halesworth and Southwold closed in 1929. A quick look on the web site has found that Suffolk Bus no. 88A roughly follows the route of the old railway. It runs hourly and takes approx. 30 mins. There are other routes serving Southwold from other directions.

There never was a railway to Salcombe although the GWR actually starting construction an extension of the Brent to Kingsbridge branch to Salcombe but work was abandoned after work had started.
It appears Tally Ho bus route no. 164 run from Totnes to Kingsbridge at approx. 90 minute intervals

 

[infobleep]

The line between Halesworth and Southwold closed in 1929. A quick look on the web site has found that Suffolk Bus no. 88A roughly follows the route of the old railway. It runs hourly and takes approx. 30 mins. There are other routes serving Southwold from other directions.

There never was a railway to Salcombe although the GWR actually starting construction an extension of the Brent to Kingsbridge branch to Salcombe but work was abandoned after work had started.
It appears Tally Ho bus route no. 164 run from Totnes to Kingsbridge at approx. 90 minute intervals

If course it was Kingsbridge. I'd forgotten that. Thanks for correcting it.

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[paul1609]

Certainly wouldn't disagree about the need to have the Buxton to Matlock line open but don't think this is the purpose of this thread.
As to the transpeak it is so expensive because it is commercially operated. The only tendered journeys according to the current Derbyshire County Council timetables are the last journey of the day.
There are also a lot of places with no evening bus services today & Bakewell isn't one of them!

I cycled the route a couple of years ago and was surprised at the layout of the line, Whilst heavily engineered it would not be a high speed line if open today. i left thinking that there couldn't have been much if any intermediate traffic and that you'd have been better off spending money on infrastructure upgrades to the Hope Valley

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I cycled the route a couple of years ago and was surprised at the layout of the line, Whilst heavily engineered it would not be a high speed line if open today. i left thinking that there couldn't have been much if any intermediate traffic and that you'd have been better off spending money on infrastructure upgrades to the Hope Valley

And funnily enough i cycled it again on Thursday. The only advantage speed wise is that Rowsley to Buxton would really only warrant one station - at Bakewell - so would be a relatively quick journey.

 

[yorksrob]

I cycled the route a couple of years ago and was surprised at the layout of the line, Whilst heavily engineered it would not be a high speed line if open today. i left thinking that there couldn't have been much if any intermediate traffic and that you'd have been better off spending money on infrastructure upgrades to the Hope Valley

If only assessing the needs of the country in terms of national infrastructure were as easy as just cycling the route. The potential benefits of the route in terms of freight, regional links and local connectivity are unlikely to be ascertained by one man on his bycicle.