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Planning Rules Have Failed To link New Homes To Public Transport - study finds.

bramling

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If you build new houses on green fields on the edge of town, it's hardly surprising that public transport use won't be very good, and that car use will increase.

Not just on the edge of town. Round here, most new homes seem to be in villages, often with few if any services, and little if any public transport. So in other words pretty much 100% reliant on cars, and generators of a massive number of car journeys to/from the nearest towns - and often on roads that are poorly suited to the increased levels of traffic.
 
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Horizon22

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Even when houses are built near railway stations, they are often lots of little cul-de-sacs with poor walking/cycling routes which just makes it unattractive for the average person. Just look up on Google Maps new developments and you'll see instantly and many will be familar with the road layout already.

Also many are naturally away from the centre of the town (where there is space) and public transport funding in line with council/developer proposals (section 106) has never been sufficient.
 

cle

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Or they will see new developments being built close to railway stations and think 'if I move there I won't need tens of thousands of pounds of depreciating metal and can live there and use the train'.
I hope so. But we will need horses for courses; apt dwellings and density for people who don't want or need a car, work in cities, like walkable amenities etc - these people should be incentivized.... and then the 3 bed with a little garden and driveway English crutch - less ideal for density and land use, but a reality in the market to provide for - and some folks do need to drive to work due to location, shifts etc - and that is fine.

Hopefully even the latter can be walkabLe to transit options. I love Marston for this potential, having a mainline as bookends - but it really needs to get to MKC! Winslow needs a ton of housing.

Park and Ride is less best practice, but even worse is full car commute. Better last mile/s options will increase the catchment, eg micro stuff and bike shares.
 

thejuggler

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Even when houses are built near railway stations, they are often lots of little cul-de-sacs with poor walking/cycling routes which just makes it unattractive for the average person. Just look up on Google Maps new developments and you'll see instantly and many will be familar with the road layout already.
That's the conflict between having well linked housing developments and housing which is secure by design. Cul de sacs are more secure than housing developments with lots of entries and exits for non residents.
 

DarloRich

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Or just not have parking at all, for a more sustainable and equitable development.
aha! the Star Trek world option! - this board never seems bale to grasp that many people want/like to drive. If you don't offer parking you limit potential passengers to those living within a short walking distance.

Parking needs to be offered and it can be done in a multi story way limiting the space required
 

alistairlees

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Outsourcing planning and development to organisations (housing developers) that have no interest or stake in wider strategic issues (such as transport, healthcare, educaton, amenities etc.) that are long-term key to the public is the basic problem here.
 

Malaxa

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aha! the Star Trek world option! - this board never seems bale to grasp that many people want/like to drive. If you don't offer parking you limit potential passengers to those living within a short walking distance.

Parking needs to be offered and it can be done in a multi story way limiting the space required
A big departure from the past is that people just don't like walking any more, whether it's to local amenities or to a bus stop. Unless of course they have a dog on a lead. The car is the default for any journey, however short.
 

dm1

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That's the conflict between having well linked housing developments and housing which is secure by design. Cul de sacs are more secure than housing developments with lots of entries and exits for non residents.
That conflict only arises when the density is low enough and few people are walking around the neighbourhood. In denser areas security is provided not by cul de sacs, but by the social control of lots of people being out and about who can see and intervene if they see something happening (even if they often don't in reality, being in plain sight still reduces the risk of crime). This is also one of the reasons why very high density with tall apartment buildings (more than 7-8 storeys) can also have security challenges if not designed well. Any higher and you can't really see what's going on in the streets below anymore so that social control (looking out the window if you hear something going on outside) can get lost.
 

DarloRich

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A big departure from the past is that people just don't like walking any more, whether it's to local amenities or to a bus stop. Unless of course they have a dog on a lead. The car is the default for any journey, however short.
I agree for your local shop but imo travel to employment doesn't work like that - Stations have a wide catchment area meaning people have to drive. No one is going to walk 5 miles to get the train when they can drive. It isn't 1832!
 

Lewisham2221

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The current "carrot and stick" approach to planning new housing developments in a way to discourage car use really does the opposite IMO. Many developments near me seem to use the philosophy of:
  • Stick: Poor driveway/parking provision and narrow roads to "discourage" car ownership.
  • Carrot: A poorly situated bus shelter somewhere just outside the estate, with no real attempt to ensure any sort of useable bus service is provided.
What actually happens, is that people move into these houses and have multiple cars and/or work vans anyway. The poor parking provision encourages on street parking. The narrow roads encourage partial pavement parking. The on street and pavement parking then further discourage walking and cycling by making it more difficult. The "carrot" does absolutely nothing to encourage people to use public transport. Which further encourages and reinforces car ownership/usage.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think outside major cities' main built up areas the idea of reducing car ownership is just a losing battle. Reducing car use by providing high quality public transport connectivity is a more feasible goal.

Car clubs can help a bit, though, in allowing some households to go from 2 to 1 cars, but very unlikely 0.
 

driverd

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Hourly public transport isn't the end of the world provided it is reliable. What's more of an issue is that rural bus services tend to operate only from about 8am to 6pm at most. You need an 18 hour operating day (roughly 0600-midnight) to really be a car substitute. For instance I wouldn't commute to an office job by bus with a last bus around 1800, it needs to be much later for possible overtime and/or drinks after work.

Its certainly not just rural areas. The village I grew up in was around 5 miles from Wakefield and 8 miles (approx) from Leeds. We had 2x hourly buses to Leeds, operated by different companies with no ticket acceptance (unless you paid over £5 for the West Yorkshire bus rover). By the time I moved on (around 8 or so years ago), the quicker, worthwhile service essentially ran 8am - 6pm. Since then this service now doesn't operate to Leeds, leaving essentially no connectivity for a rapidly expanding (circa 400 houses built on just one houseing development of a few) village. It's insane.

But even back then, there just wasnt any draw to this service. The frequency wasn't enough to work with most people's lives (arriving up to 50 odd minutes early isn't tenable in 2024), the timetable spread, as you pointed out, doesn't give enough flexibility for after work drinks, meeting a friend for a meal, or even a meeting or call that goes on a bit too long.

When you have the option of just diving in the car, where you can get to the city centre some 20 minutes quicker, and pay a tad more for the convenience (when parking is taken into account), who wouldn't?

In terms of buses, Leeds seems to have done really well for the introduction of park and ride - using the bus for the last hop into the city. However, I think rail is always more attractive, as it gives the possibility of working on the move - something not possible on most buses. It tends to be quicker and take you right into town.
 

lachlan

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Time, and opportunity, for a thinking afresh of transport needs and provision - a bit like the invention of buses, cars, trains .... and where people 'need' to travel to, why, how often etc.

Do folk in India, China, Africa etc 'drive all the way' anywhere, any time?

Can a walkable/ cyclable future be imagined, eg in conjunction with East West Rail? Like 'beads on a string'? I think so.
The new Chinese HSR stations are generally located out of town and while I imagine they do run shuttle buses, they also are built with substantial car parks and drop off points.
The current "carrot and stick" approach to planning new housing developments in a way to discourage car use really does the opposite IMO. Many developments near me seem to use the philosophy of:
  • Stick: Poor driveway/parking provision and narrow roads to "discourage" car ownership.
  • Carrot: A poorly situated bus shelter somewhere just outside the estate, with no real attempt to ensure any sort of useable bus service is provided.
What actually happens, is that people move into these houses and have multiple cars and/or work vans anyway. The poor parking provision encourages on street parking. The narrow roads encourage partial pavement parking. The on street and pavement parking then further discourage walking and cycling by making it more difficult. The "carrot" does absolutely nothing to encourage people to use public transport. Which further encourages and reinforces car ownership/usage.
And new estates often have very poor connections to the rest of town - perhaps along roads without pavements or lighting.

IMO new housing developments need to either be on brownfield sites or near existing railway stations and lines. If we keep building sprawl, we can't expect people to walk for 30/40/50 mins into town along polluted, congested streets.

FWIW people I know will consider a tram or train but will not use buses outside of London.
 

AM9

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Aren't you basically describing Runcorn?
Runcorn is a very specific design to encourage bus travel, however, where I live in St Albans (a town where car congestion is endemic) the locality is a group of cul-de-sacs connected to a perimeter road, and a single hourly bus route runs in one direction around that perimeter with no dwelling inside the loop being more than 5 minutes from a bus stop. The bus service is however quite reliable (delayed only by traffc in the centre of town) and also provides a couple of 'commuter diversions' and 'leisure trip services' buses to St Albans City station morning and evening. The walk to the station is otherwise 35-45mins.
The estate was built in the late '60s and early '70s and is very popular with both car owners and those wishing to use public transport. So it can be done without creating a bunch tightly packed houses that aren't popular with residents.
 

Bigfoot

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Our council are creating a new walking and cycling route too and from a large new housing development, 3500+ homes and the local station. The only problem is there is a section of road that is owned by the MOD between the new development and the public roads that won't have the required work done on it making the scheme almost pointless. Joined up thinking at it's finest
 

cle

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That's the conflict between having well linked housing developments and housing which is secure by design. Cul de sacs are more secure than housing developments with lots of entries and exits for non residents.
This should be addressed through higher quality design, environments, civic pride... not isolation and suspicion. We have to design our futures without the assumption that criminality is inevitable - but can be mitigated through better spaces. We can learn from the bad estates of the past.

A big departure from the past is that people just don't like walking any more, whether it's to local amenities or to a bus stop. Unless of course they have a dog on a lead. The car is the default for any journey, however short.
This - should not be encouraged. This is public health stuff. Walkable settlements and lifestyles are far more desirable for many ways. This does not mean anti-car or anti-choice, just logic and encouraging modes which help societal objectives more, including air quality, traffic deaths, congestion.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Who approved the plans for all these poor developments which have failed planning rules?
Would it, in any way, be members of the RTPI?

Even if the decision is ultimately made by the Planning Committee (or by the minister following an appeal against refusal of planning permission) planners doing their job can have a massive input into a developers design. The developer wants the easiest ride possible (see the comments re the costs of regulatory obstacles on the HS2 batcave) and generally speaking, if the planner says I want wide enough roads and a layout suitable for a bus service, the developer will accommodate that. You can also quite reasonably point the finger at highway engineers who are consultees on planning applications. Ever seen a highway engineer at a bus stop?
 

I'm here now

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aha! the Star Trek world option! - this board never seems bale to grasp that many people want/like to drive. If you don't offer parking you limit potential passengers to those living within a short walking distance.

Parking needs to be offered and it can be done in a multi story way limiting the space required
Or feeder bus services could be offered to serve those passengers. Multi storey is of course better, but I would prefer walkable lower storeys with open green spaces that better public health.

A big departure from the past is that people just don't like walking any more, whether it's to local amenities or to a bus stop. Unless of course they have a dog on a lead. The car is the default for any journey, however short.
People wonder why there’s an obesity crisis…
 

DarloRich

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Or feeder bus services could be offered to serve those passengers.
Nope - most people think the bus is for the lower social orders and a symbol of failure. I KNOW many here don't feel that but real people DO. Even free most wouldn't bother. The train works really well for long distance commutes or into a local centre of employment. It doesn't compare well with the car for relatively short journeys. The on;y ay to get peopel on t othe train is to offer a cheap, relaible service with free or very low cost parking.

Otherwise people will drive. Trust me. Using the MV as an example most people augh at the idea they might use that to get to work. They would rather drive. It is quicker, easier and more reliable.
 

Malaxa

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I think outside major cities' main built up areas the idea of reducing car ownership is just a losing battle. Reducing car use by providing high quality public transport connectivity is a more feasible goal.

Car clubs can help a bit, though, in allowing some households to go from 2 to 1 cars, but very unlikely 0.
I agree, but the majority wouldn't be seen dead on a bus, even those entitled to free bus passes - especially those living in the owner-occupied sprawl surrounding towns which DO have railway stations. Let's see how everyone gets to Beaulieu - or the new improved opportunities in Bicester Village. I guess it won't be by bus, bicycle or shanks' pony. The cycle paths I inspected recently in Bicester were unused and covered in vegetation and the rabbit warrens impenetrable to buses.
 

I'm here now

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Nope - most people think the bus is for the lower social orders and a symbol of failure. I KNOW many here don't feel that but real people DO. Even free most wouldn't bother. The train works really well for long distance commutes or into a local centre of employment. It doesn't compare well with the car for relatively short journeys. The on;y ay to get peopel on t othe train is to offer a cheap, relaible service with free or very low cost parking.

Otherwise people will drive. Trust me. Using the MV as an example most people augh at the idea they might use that to get to work. They would rather drive. It is quicker, easier and more reliable.
I agree, but the majority wouldn't be seen dead on a bus, even those entitled to free bus passes - especially those living in the owner-occupied sprawl surrounding towns which DO have railway stations. Let's see how everyone gets to Beaulieu - or the new improved opportunities in Bicester Village. I guess it won't be by bus, bicycle or shanks' pony. The cycle paths I inspected recently in Bicester were unused and covered in vegetation and the rabbit warrens impenetrable to buses.
They can pay for expensive parking if they’re up themselves enough to not take the bus. Guaranteed connections to the train such as in Switzerland should be envisioned to make best use of the resources at hand.
 

paul1609

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yorksrob

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plugwash

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I think outside major cities' main built up areas the idea of reducing car ownership is just a losing battle. Reducing car use by providing high quality public transport connectivity is a more feasible goal.
Reducing car usage while maintaining car ownership is difficult because.

1. Outside of the most congested areas even "high quality" public transport is usually much slower than driving.
2. Even with the crazy high fuel duty, the perceived cost of using a car you already own is quite low. Part of this is perception (more miles probably means more maintainance and depreciation but the relationship is not immediately obvious) and part of it is real (a lot of the costs of owning a car are essentially fixed). EVs make this even more stark, raising the fixed cost of owning a car while lowering the marginal cost.
 

paul1609

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It's not too late to provide a useful service to locals. It might be if you get a load of NIMBY's moving in, but presumably they'll be made aware of the proposals.
Theres absolutely no mention of the proposed railway in the sales material. The transport priority is the easy access to the M5 at Exeter via the A30. A good proportion of the properties are already occupied.
 

yorksrob

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Theres absolutely no mention of the proposed railway in the sales material. The transport priority is the easy access to the M5 at Exeter via the A30. A good proportion of the properties are already occupied.

That's definitely an oversight in that case. However, unless they've been living under a rock for the past few years they should have seen about it.
 

RT4038

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Who approved the plans for all these poor developments which have failed planning rules?
Would it, in any way, be members of the RTPI?

Even if the decision is ultimately made by the Planning Committee (or by the minister following an appeal against refusal of planning permission) planners doing their job can have a massive input into a developers design. The developer wants the easiest ride possible (see the comments re the costs of regulatory obstacles on the HS2 batcave) and generally speaking, if the planner says I want wide enough roads and a layout suitable for a bus service, the developer will accommodate that. You can also quite reasonably point the finger at highway engineers who are consultees on planning applications. Ever seen a highway engineer at a bus stop?
This may well be the theory, but in my experience this is not quite how it works in practice.

The developer wants the largest profit possible. They want to pay for the least infrastructure that they can get away with, so doesn't want to pay for link roads etc if they can get away with simply connecting to an existing road, creating another cul de sac estate. They want to put the maximum number of homes on the development land as possible. The planners can ask for what they like as far as wide enough roads, layout, bus stop locations etc, but the developers will come back with 'affordability'. The developer wants to sell the houses at the best price, so that means no bus stops outside or adjacent to any houses. The Planning Authority has targets from Central Government about new home build, so is not going to be too hard on developers who may turn away from the site. Result is a mish mash compromise, where buses inevitably lose out (remember that neither the developers, the planning authority staff or highway engineers use buses, have any desire to and can't see why anyone else would). If the planning authority knock the development back, it will go to appeal and the Planning Inspector (who never uses buses, has no desire to and can't see why anyone else would) will fudge some compromise.

Selling houses is about selling dreams. No one (except a few enthusiasts, greens etc) dreams about their new house, new life in a leafy suburbs, travelling locally by public transport ........
 

Indigo Soup

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Hourly public transport isn't the end of the world provided it is reliable. What's more of an issue is that rural bus services tend to operate only from about 8am to 6pm at most. You need an 18 hour operating day (roughly 0600-midnight) to really be a car substitute. For instance I wouldn't commute to an office job by bus with a last bus around 1800, it needs to be much later for possible overtime and/or drinks after work.
I am one of those people who's moved from the city out to the countryside. The move was made with our eyes wide open about the transport implications - my wife and I grew up in a similar small town to where we now live.

We're fortunate to have a better bus service than most towns of our size, with four bus routes, the most important of which is hourly between 0630 and 2330 and very useful for commuting and leisure travel to the major local centre. The 3/day service to the next town is really a school bus that takes the paying public, of course.

The railway station is too far out of town to access on foot, with no safe walking route (cycling is possible but a nuisance) and the buses cunningly timed not to connect with any of the hourly trains. The buses that might theoretically be useful for commuting, if one didn't mind half an hour at a station with few amenities, don't call at it at all.

The last bus does line up very well with closing time at the pub in the next village, though.

And this is a rural town that has good public transport. We've managed to get away with being a one-car household. Most of the houses on our street have two. More than a handful have three or four.
 

Bletchleyite

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Reducing car usage while maintaining car ownership is difficult because.

1. Outside of the most congested areas even "high quality" public transport is usually much slower than driving.
2. Even with the crazy high fuel duty, the perceived cost of using a car you already own is quite low. Part of this is perception (more miles probably means more maintainance and depreciation but the relationship is not immediately obvious) and part of it is real (a lot of the costs of owning a car are essentially fixed).

Then we should give up and go home, because significant reduction in car ownership isn't going to happen. The best we can hope for in rural areas is expansion of park and ride to reduce the number of cars going into the places where they cause most harm - towns and cities. It works very well in Oxford, for example, the P&R is very well used.

EVs make this even more stark, raising the fixed cost of owning a car while lowering the marginal cost.

That's why a move away from fuel duty and towards road pricing is both essential and inevitable, however much people whinge about it.
 

peteb

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Forward planning does take adjacent bus routes into account when identifying land for housing in the Local Plan. However, usually these bus routes are wholly inadequate especially in the evenings, so many out of town/edge of town developments are reliant on taxis or private car usage after eg:7pm. This is certainly the case in Wyre Forest District.
 

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