Plans to reopen Totton - Fawley/Hythe (again!)

[Cowley]

Until we get some firm news on this we’re going to place this thread in the speculative section.
If and when there’s further developments we’ll start a new thread on it as we have done with other schemes.

 

[VEP3417]

cadland road isnt a bad shout for a station (well for ease of access close to the tracks anyway) as you can drive right to the end of it and at the end theres a long thin bit of land which was a siding i think but now looks to be a carpark? , well sort of as said you would need a bus service back into town ect as its a tad out the way of any housing developments so maybe thats a thought for later on if the refinery ever goes and more stations are needed further down the line after hythe

 

[Domeyhead]

NR are *Very* heavily involved, the DfT have provided several million pounds of funding and the ORR don't have anything to do until work actually gets started. What do you expect the MP to be doing at this stage?

Involved in what exactly? There is no plan, there is no solid proposal. There is no feasibility study that correlates and unifies all the various financial and technology constraints apart from the discredited Halcrow Report, which was a flawed hatchet job. (Why do trains need to run to Fareham when SWR, SR and GWR already offer a thrice hourly service east of Southampton. It's nonsense!) so as I repeat, there is nothing for NR to be heavily involved in. What they could be doing however is stating the need for a progressive and iteratively refined proposal on which they could comment constructively. As for ORR doing nothing until work starts , that is crazy. We could be embarking on a nonsensical construction proposal that fails all manner of sense and safety tests, and ORR are just going to sit back and languidly produce their list of objections when the concrete is dry? That is not good governance. It is a lack of governance. As for the MP, what I expect him to do is to encourage the same kind of collaboration that saw the Datmoor Line succeed. Instead he like other misguided non public transport users sees nothing in the new line except a threat to the survival of the Hyther Ferry, which is a lovely ride but is not a good example of an integrated transport solution that would keep folk off the A326. Apart from all that your unpicking was great.

 

[kwrail]

Just got to hope that the announcement expected in the middle of the year is positive and that the £7million allocated to develop the proposal is used sensibly. It's this that got everyone excited and discussing what should and shouldn't be done. Given that there has been no passenger service on the branch since 1966 it would seem sensible to keep it simple and keep costs to a minimum - just to get it back up and running. Then work it from there. Which probably means a basic hourly service from Hythe to Southampton Central and probably not much further. And a campaign for local residents to write to their MP might not be a bad idea!

 

[zwk500]

There is no plan, there is no solid proposal.

Yes there is, it's a Restoring Your Railways proposal. Work to demonstrate the feasibility (or not, as the case may be) is currently underway and is heavily involving NR.

As for ORR doing nothing until work starts , that is crazy. We could be embarking on a nonsensical construction proposal that fails all manner of sense and safety tests, and ORR are just going to sit back and languidly produce their list of objections when the concrete is dry? That is not good governance. It is a lack of governance.

The ORR have published the list of requirements already, it is the project's job to demonstrate compliance at every stage. Should something not be up to standard, it will not receive approval. However given that detailed design of the final option is yet to start, there is currently nothing to approve.

As for the MP, what I expect him to do is to encourage the same kind of collaboration that saw the Datmoor Line succeed. Instead he like other misguided non public transport users sees nothing in the new line except a threat to the survival of the Hyther Ferry, which is a lovely ride but is not a good example of an integrated transport solution that would keep folk off the A326. Apart from all that your unpicking was great.

It's got political support by being approved by the DfT, at this stage the best thing an MP can do is keep on the sidelines and let industry professionals get on with the tasks in hand.

 

[AlbertBeale]

... Instead he like other misguided non public transport users sees nothing in the new line except a threat to the survival of the Hyther Ferry, which is a lovely ride but is not a good example of an integrated transport solution that would keep folk off the A326. Apart from all that your unpicking was great.

Not sure about the threat to the ferry - I'd guess that between Hythe and the docks area of Southampton (including IoW ferries) it'd be quicker than using the train (especially given they'd both only be running half-hourly, so if you've just missed one mode of transport it's always likely to be quicker getting the other instead). And some people - including visitors to the area - might prefer the ferry anyway. I'd think that the more public transport options the better, really.

 

[Dougal2345]

Residents in the area being leafleted about a consultation - sadly the URL http://Networkrail.co.uk/watersideline doesn't seem to be working as I write...

 

[zwk500]

Residents in the area being leafleted about a consultation - sadly the URL http://Networkrail.co.uk/watersideline doesn't seem to be working as I write...

Nor for me, sadly. I'd be very interested to see what the proposals are!

 

[James H]

According to the Southern Daily Echo a 'driverless' train ran from Waterloo to Marchwood at the weekend

Charter train arrives in Marchwood - only to reverse

A MUCH-ANTICIPATED rail tour to Fawley has had to be curtailed due to a cable theft.

www.dailyecho.co.uk

 

[Dougal2345]

According to the Southern Daily Echo a 'driverless' train ran from Waterloo to Marchwood at the weekend

Charter train arrives in Marchwood - only to reverse

A MUCH-ANTICIPATED rail tour to Fawley has had to be curtailed due to a cable theft.

www.dailyecho.co.uk

Which was also "Powered by two diesel locomotives at each end" - I wouldn't have minded seeing that...

 

[Basil Jet]

Which was also "Powered by two diesel locomotives at each end" - I wouldn't have minded seeing that...

Me too, but I'd rather not smell it.

 

[zwk500]

Sadly, if services do get introduced, it'll be a 158/159 very definitely with a driver!

 

[341o2]

Which was also "Powered by two diesel locomotives at each end" - I wouldn't have minded seeing that...

I've just realised another Echo brilliant piece of journalism (and they want you to pay to read their..ahem..."quality" reporting), that what they are saying that the train had four diesel locomotives!

 

[Dougal2345]

The Network Rail page now seems to be working:

http://Networkrail.co.uk/watersideline

The proposals we are developing would see passenger services restored from Southampton to Marchwood station, which would be reopened, and to a brand-new station in Hythe.

Our proposals are subject to a positive review of the project’s business case, and we are still to determine what changes would be needed to the existing railway infrastructure, such as track, signalling and level crossings.

 

[nw1]

The Network Rail page now seems to be working:

http://Networkrail.co.uk/watersideline

Still no luck for me.

 

[DaveHarries]

Still no luck for me.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/wessex/the-waterside-line/ is the correct link.

Dave

 

[nw1]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/wessex/the-waterside-line/ is the correct link.

Dave

Got it now! (just been looking at it 10 mins ago as it happens...)
Thanks.

 

[55002]

Isn’t there a big development going in on site of Fawley power station? Would the line be extended for that?

 

[zwk500]

Isn’t there a big development going in on site of Fawley power station? Would the line be extended for that?

If the development takes place, it could be. The station would be to the North of the current refinery, IIRC. However the decision was taken to prioritise getting trains to Marchwood and Hythe, and if the service for that option couldn't be easily extended to Fawley, so be it.

 

[PTR 444]

If the development takes place, it could be. The station would be to the North of the current refinery, IIRC. However the decision was taken to prioritise getting trains to Marchwood and Hythe, and if the service for that option couldn't be easily extended to Fawley, so be it.

It would be near impossible to extend heavy rail directly to the Fawley Power Station site, not least because the refinery is in the way!

As an alternative, could a tram-train extension work with purpose-built light rail track running from Cadland Road alongside the A326/B3053 to the new development?

 

[zwk500]

It would be near impossible to extend heavy rail directly to the Fawley Power Station site, not least because the refinery is in the way!

As an alternative, could a tram-train extension work with purpose-built light rail track running from Cadland Road alongside the A326/B3053 to the new development?

Who's going to pay for it?

 

[PTR 444]

Who's going to pay for it?

The developer of Fawley Waterside? (I believe that’s what it’s called)

 

[zwk500]

The developer of Fawley Waterside (I believe that’s what it’s called)?

And how are you going to persuade them to shoulder the greatly increased cost as compared to building a parkway station next to the existing line? These housing developers don't like letting money out of their CEO's grip.

 

[Dougal2345]

Hunting for any news about this, all that came to light was this from last November:

Scrapping part of HS2 mean trains to Hythe could come back

Campaigners say moves to reopen a New Forest rail route could benefit from the government's decision to scrap part of the controversial HS2 project.

The freight-only Totton to Hythe branch line will carry passenger trains for the first time since the 1960s if the scheme is given the go-ahead.
Last month Prime Minister Rishi Sunak scrapped plans to extend the HS2 high-speed rail link northwards from Birmingham.
Mr Sunak has pledged that the £36bn saved by the decision will spent on other transport projects across the country, including new stations and reopened railway lines.

Totton South and Marchwood county councillor David Harrison has spent years campaigning for passenger services on the Totton to Hythe line to be restored.

The Liberal Democrat said he asked about the future of the line when he met the leader of the county council, Cllr Rob Humby, and senior transport planners.

"The latest situation is that Network Rail are still working on the project, liaising with government. It would appear that the business case isn’t as strong as might be hoped."

But Cllr Harrison said council officers suggested that the scrapping of the HS2 extension "might make our local project more likely to be progressed".
Campaigners say reopening the Totton to Hythe line would ease the ever-increasing pressure on the A326 and other roads.
Fawley Waterside is planning to build 1,500 homes on the former site of Fawley power station. Other housing projects in the Waterside area are also in the pipeline.

Cllr Harrison said: "I have always believed there is a very strong case for reinstating the rail passenger service. Almost all the infrastructure is in place. The population has grown and will do so in the future. Most people are sick and tired of congested local roads and the consequential air quality issues. It is very hard to get any clue from the government as to whether they will decide to support the project. I guess the decision to scrap the HS2 extension makes it more likely the project will be given the green light. I suspect they will keep their cards close to their chest in order to make a big announcement if they decide to go ahead."

Last year a public consultation revealed overwhelming support for moves to reopen the line.

Residents were given an opportunity to learn more about the proposals, which include upgrades to Marchwood station and a new transport hub at Hythe.

Network Rail said 84 per cent of people who registered their opinion backed the idea of commuter trains returning to the route.

Leaving aside the guff about HS2, most concerning was:

"It would appear that the business case isn’t as strong as might be hoped."

I had the general impression after 2022 that things were almost certain to go ahead... has in fact nothing happened since then, is it completely stalled?

Anyone in the know around here with any up to date information...?

 

[stuu]

Leaving aside the guff about HS2, most concerning was:

"It would appear that the business case isn’t as strong as might be hoped."

I wouldn't be surprised if it really means the costs have gone up too much to make a viable business case

 

[nanstallon]

Just like Tavistock.

 

[Megafuss]

I wouldn't be surprised if it really means the costs have gone up too much to make a viable business case

On the recent Green Signals podcast, Richard Bowker made the point that a lot of these reverse Beeching "let's open X Y Z" lines because we should" schemes are made by well meaning people, but with not much footing in reality. He was referring specifically to the Waverley line south of Tweedbank (which I agree with him about).

I wonder if lots of these other proposed schemes also fall in to that camp?

 

[The Ham]

On the recent Green Signals podcast, Richard Bowker made the point that a lot of these reverse Beeching "let's open X Y Z" lines because we should" schemes are made by well meaning people, but with not much footing in reality. He was referring specifically to the Waverley line south of Tweedbank (which I agree with him about).

I wonder if lots of these other proposed schemes also fall in to that camp?

Indeed, it's easy to say let's reopen a closed line as it's easy to see how it was once useful and so it could be useful again.

However, it's probably more useful to look at where there's busy transport corridors to see if rail could be useful. That's likely to be harder to get support for.

 

[nw1]

Just like Tavistock.

Except Tavistock doesn't have rails whereas Hythe does.

Hythe must surely be relatively cheap and relatively likely to attract passengers. It's a well-populated area. You already have the track, one station (Marchwood) has platforms in situ, and you could run it simply with a one-unit hourly shuttle. Plus, the service would serve a relatively large city, with good connections elsewhere.

 

[Bertie the bus]

On the recent Green Signals podcast, Richard Bowker made the point that a lot of these reverse Beeching "let's open X Y Z" lines because we should" schemes are made by well meaning people, but with not much footing in reality. He was referring specifically to the Waverley line south of Tweedbank (which I agree with him about).

Some of us managed to work that out for ourselves long ago. Pretty much all of the let's reopen some branch line in a rural backwater suggestions are fantasy and will never happen.