Please help, court summons letter

[captain_hook]

Unfortunately, no.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread your wife had a valid ticket for the start and end of her journey. Unless you can prove that a ticket inspector saw both tickets in the middle of the journey, every single time she travelled then it doesn't hold any weight.

Thanks a lot!

Can I ask them to provide CCTV recordings that will show my wife was showing both tickets? Will they do it or it is not something I can ask for? Thanks.

 

[najaB]

Thanks a lot!

Can I ask them to provide CCTV recordings that will show my wife was showing both tickets? Will they do it or it is not something I can ask for? Thanks.

You can ask, but I think it will be extremely unlikely that it would provide the evidence you need.

You would be more likely to win the lottery two draws in a row.

 

[captain_hook]

You can ask, but I think it will be extremely unlikely that it would provide the evidence you need.

You would be more likely to win the lottery two draws in a row.

Heh, I wish I could win it

Well in this case it looks like the best way is just giving them a call on Monday and hope it will be sorted without any hassle.

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks a lot!

Can I ask them to provide CCTV recordings that will show my wife was showing both tickets? Will they do it or it is not something I can ask for? Thanks.

Unlikely that CCTV would even be available or helpful.
Ticket inspectors don't have personal CCTV and those on stations or in coaches are not detailed enough to show what is printed on a ticket.

 

[furlong]

Actually, South West Trains does advertise some validity via Clapham Junction - but as far as I can see, only when using a replacement bus. So it's not inconceivable that such advice was offered by someone checking on a computer and misinterpreted.






I can find nothing in any of versions of the Routeing Guide that I have checked that might support the use of this near-circular route on journeys made entirely by train - this validity seems to be nothing more than a concession the company offers when making slow journeys that include travel on some specific replacement buses.

 

[londiscape]

Thanks bb21! Really appreciate your responses!

So the bottom line is that ticket inspectors, rail officers and all other authorized personnel cam simply lie to you and provide a misleading information and then prosecute you only because they provided a false information? So they can close their eyes on their mistakes but point on yours.

Aside from the bit of your post that I struck through, yes, this is indeed the situation. I think it's unlikely that the member of staff intentionally lied to your wife, but that said member gave you poor information as a result of insufficient training and knowledge.

As you say, they can make mistakes but, due to the quite frankly immoral element of "strict liability" in railway law, the passenger may not do so. This is the law and there is very little that humble ordinary persons can do about it. Events have led this to escalate into Regulation of Railways Act offence, which is higher in the scale and could indeed cause you problems with the Home Office in future.

For what it's worth, as a mere regular, law abiding rail passenger otherwise unconnected with the industry, you have my sympathy. Unfortunately, it's not worth very much. I urge you to follow the advice that has already been provided by very knowledgeable members (of which bb21 and DaveNewcastle are at the forefront), to seek to resolve this out of court and pay the settlements requested in order to close this down and let you get on with your lives.

 

[captain_hook]

Aside from the bit of your post that I struck through, yes, this is indeed the situation. I think it's unlikely that the member of staff intentionally lied to your wife, but that said member gave you poor information as a result of insufficient training and knowledge.

As you say, they can make mistakes but, due to the quite frankly immoral element of "strict liability" in railway law, the passenger may not do so. This is the law and there is very little that humble ordinary persons can do about it. Events have led this to escalate into Regulation of Railways Act offence, which is higher in the scale and could indeed cause you problems with the Home Office in future.

For what it's worth, as a mere regular, law abiding rail passenger otherwise unconnected with the industry, you have my sympathy. Unfortunately, it's not worth very much. I urge you to follow the advice that has already been provided by very knowledgeable members (of which bb21 and DaveNewcastle are at the forefront), to seek to resolve this out of court and pay the settlements requested in order to close this down and let you get on with your lives.

Hi and thanks a lot for your kind message! I really appreciate the fact that you believe me.

I will follow the advise and see if my wife can agree with them on Monday.
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Unlikely that CCTV would even be available or helpful.
Ticket inspectors don't have personal CCTV and those on stations or in coaches are not detailed enough to show what is printed on a ticket.

Thanks! That's not good, because they could see that my wife showed all the tickets and the inspector said they are valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually, South West Trains does advertise some validity via Clapham Junction - but as far as I can see, only when using a replacement bus. So it's not inconceivable that such advice was offered by someone checking on a computer and misinterpreted.

View attachment 20968
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View attachment 20965
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I can find nothing in any of versions of the Routeing Guide that I have checked that might support the use of this near-circular route on journeys made entirely by train - this validity seems to be nothing more than a concession the company offers when making slow journeys that include travel on some specific replacement buses.

Thanks a lot for your efforts!

I will do a big conclusion after all this story: always double check the routes even if it was advised by an authorized member of railway staff! Trust no one but yourself!

 

[Rich McLean]

What you may find when offering an Out of Court settlement, if SWT know that this has been happening for some time, they would more than likely be looking for a settlement such as the full priced walk up ticket for each day traveled during that time, for each day she traveled on the ticket combination you mentioned until she was stopped, plus administration costs. This would more than likely be why they have not offered an Out of Court Settlement

Depending how long that lasted for, and what your personal financial position is like, it may be possible to settle out of court, but you would be looking at a large 4 figure amount, possibly more depending on how long this went on for. SWT may feel that the fine in court would be less than the Settlement amount by quite some margin

EDIT: Just seen the time. So the settlement amount is likely to be An Anytime Return for each day traveled from September until she got caught + Admin costs. If you are prepared to offer that to them, they may settle out of court, but as above, unlikely to offer than in the first instance as a fine by the court would more than likely be a lot less that the settlement.

Please keep us informed.

 

[najaB]

SWT may feel that the fine in court would be less than the Settlement amount by quite some margin.

That wouldn't necessarily stop them from accepting it, as was demonstrated in the famous Southeastern Trains case.

 

[captain_hook]

What you may find when offering an Out of Court settlement, if SWT know that this has been happening for some time, they would more than likely be looking for a settlement such as the full priced walk up ticket for each day traveled during that time, for each day she traveled on the ticket combination you mentioned until she was stopped, plus administration costs. This would more than likely be why they have not offered an Out of Court Settlement

Depending how long that lasted for, and what your personal financial position is like, it may be possible to settle out of court, but you would be looking at a large 4 figure amount, possibly more depending on how long this went on for. SWT may feel that the fine in court would be less than the Settlement amount by quite some margin

EDIT: Just seen the time. So the settlement amount is likely to be An Anytime Return for each day traveled from September until she got caught + Admin costs. If you are prepared to offer that to them, they may settle out of court, but as above, unlikely to offer than in the first instance as a fine by the court would more than likely be a lot less that the settlement.

Please keep us informed.

Thanks a lot, Rich!

As you already noticed this was happening for exactly 1 month - Sep till Oct. And they know this as this was written in their final letter.

I know the amount will be much higher and we are not millionaires, but in my specific situation I cannot risk my future and have problems with Home Office, that is why I would prefer to pay whatever they want and clear this out.

When she call them on Monday does she need to just give her reference number and kindly ask that she is calling with a request to sort this out of court? Does she needs to say something specific? Thanks.
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That wouldn't necessarily stop them from accepting it, as was demonstrated in the famous Southeastern Trains case.

Yes, chances are 50/50, but I think if they understand that she genuinely didn't do this with a purpose and that this is her first ever legal issue that will affect our future, I think they will understand that. Hopefully.

 

[Rich McLean]

Thanks a lot, Rich!

As you already noticed this was happening for exactly 1 month - Sep till Oct. And they know this as this was written in their final letter.

I know the amount will be much higher and we are not millionaires, but in my specific situation I cannot risk my future and have problems with Home Office, that is why I would prefer to pay whatever they want and clear this out.

When she call them on Monday does she need to just give her reference number and kindly ask that she is calling with a request to sort this out of court? Does she needs to say something specific? Thanks.
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Yes, chances are 50/50, but I think if they understand that she genuinely didn't do this with a purpose and that this is her first ever legal issue that will affect our future, I think they will understand that. Hopefully.

Good luck with it, and to NajaB's post, by no means was I suggesting that SWT wouldn't accept a Settlement if it were for the right amount, and that yourself and your wife were willing to stump up that kind of cash, which in many cases, many would not have

 

[swt_passenger]

Were the tickets sold in the same transaction? If they are not (and SWT could check), then your story wouldn't really make sense.

SWT only ever had a very limited number of ticket offices that could deal with Oyster, places such as Wimbledon and Richmond - I don't believe Woking would have been able to sell an Oyster travelcard valid for zones 1 and 2.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Actually, South West Trains does advertise some validity via Clapham Junction - but as far as I can see, only when using a replacement bus. So it's not inconceivable that such advice was offered by someone checking on a computer and misinterpreted.

View attachment 20968
View attachment 20964
View attachment 20965
View attachment 20967

I can find nothing in any of versions of the Routeing Guide that I have checked that might support the use of this near-circular route on journeys made entirely by train - this validity seems to be nothing more than a concession the company offers when making slow journeys that include travel on some specific replacement buses.

I still don't think a booking office clerk at Woking is likely to make this kind of error.

 

[PermitToTravel]

SWT only ever had a very limited number of ticket offices that could deal with Oyster, places such as Wimbledon and Richmond - I don't believe Woking would have been able to sell an Oyster travelcard valid for zones 1 and 2.

Very well spotted! Woking haven't ever had Oyster facilities. Did Waterloo - I don't think they did?

 

[captain_hook]

Very well spotted! Woking haven't ever had Oyster facilities. Did Waterloo - I don't think they did?

Yes you're right, Woking doesn't have any Oyster facilities. I asked her for details (she is a bit stressed because all of this) and she said that as she remembers she apparently purchased the original ticket from Waterloo (again it was back in August and she doesn't remember all bits properly). She asked a clerk at Waterloo what will be the cheapest fare to travel that way and they advised this. After she purchased the tickets and ticket inspectors didn't say anything she was buying the same tickets all September (she was buying 7 days travelcards all the time).

I however understand perfectly well this is something we can never proof and thus use in court to defend ourselves.

I can just make a big conclusion for myself and my wife that in future we need to either use ticket machines or use online journey planner that we can always point to any doubtful person. I am not saying that clerk did this with purpose or all clerks are doing this, but the reality is that even if they advise you wrongly then we will be the ones who will be responsible for this no them. A bit weird from moral side, but that's how it works - do we have any other choice. Probably either use journey planner or buy a car!

 

[najaB]

A bit weird from moral side, but that's how it works - do we have any other choice. Probably either use journey planner or buy a car!

Go with the journey planner, for a city dweller a car is a money pit!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Yes you're right, Woking doesn't have any Oyster facilities. I asked her for details (she is a bit stressed because all of this) and she said that as she remembers she apparently purchased the original ticket from Waterloo (again it was back in August and she doesn't remember all bits properly). She asked a clerk at Waterloo what will be the cheapest fare to travel that way and they advised this. After she purchased the tickets and ticket inspectors didn't say anything she was buying the same tickets all September (she was buying 7 days travelcards all the time).

August 2014?
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I note you've clicked away from this thread.

Waterloo could not sell Oyster products in any part of 2014.

 

[captain_hook]

August 2014?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I note you've clicked away from this thread.

Waterloo could not sell Oyster products in any part of 2014.

Well it was definitely in August as she started to travel in September. Don't they have ticket machines and ticket selling staff? Sorry I am not very familiar with Waterloo facilities as never purchased any tickets from there.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The self-service machines do Oyster, but not annual seasons. The LU ticket office can do Oyster but not National Rail seasons. The NR ticket office can't do Oyster.

I agree with maniacmartin that it looks like you were testing your excuse with us. Seems you need a better one.

 

[MikeWh]

Well it was definitely in August as she started to travel in September. Don't they have ticket machines and ticket selling staff? Sorry I am not very familiar with Waterloo facilities as never purchased any tickets from there.

You can buy weekly travelcards to put on Oyster from the ticket machines at Waterloo, yes. The ticket office can't process the transaction, although the one at the Underground station can.

 

[captain_hook]

The self-service machines do Oyster, but not annual seasons. The LU ticket office can do Oyster but not National Rail seasons. The NR ticket office can't do Oyster.

I agree with maniacmartin that it looks like you were testing your excuse with us. Seems you need a better one.

Thanks for you response.

What's the point of testing an excuse with you guys? You are not judges nor prosecutors, you are just forum people who know a lot about rails and fares. I can't really understand it. I think we all are busy and mature enough to not waste our time on excuses. I am just describing the situation and facts that I have and just asking what are our chances based on this raw facts. I am not asking to believe me, at the end of the day everybody belles in what they decide to believe.

To be honest my point is that saying that ticket inspectors are not guilty when they are looking to your ticket and saying it is correct while it is not is an excuse for rail company. This is my personal opinion, one might not agree with me but I deeply believe that duties of ticket inspectors include to check and verify that passengers do have a valid ticket for that specific journey. If one inspector says the tickets are valid but the second one says they are not then it is not passenger's fault but company's as they either did not provide appropriate training or simply do this with a purpose to put somebody into a trouble. Saying that ticket inspectors are not guilty is an excellent excuse for rail company. That is my own personal opinion like yours when you say I have excuses.
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You can buy weekly travelcards to put on Oyster from the ticket machines at Waterloo, yes. The ticket office can't process the transaction, although the one at the Underground station can.

Thanks Mike. Yes she was buying weekly days travelcards, not monthly / annual.

 

[DelayRepay]

(Based on 2015 prices as I don't have 2014 prices to hand)

The tickets your wife purchased cost £27.40 + £32.10 = £59.50
The required ticket should have cost £94.80 per week (Travelcard from Woking).

Given that it appears that she has been depriving South West Trains of £35 revenue per week you will understand why they will not see this as a trivial matter.
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To be honest my point is that saying that ticket inspectors are not guilty when they are looking to your ticket and saying it is correct while it is not is an excuse for rail company. This is my personal opinion, one might not agree with me but I deeply believe that duties of ticket inspectors include to check and verify that passengers do have a valid ticket for that specific journey.

Depending on where her ticket was checked, it may well have been valid at that point. Unless the guard interrogates every passenger to confirm where they boarded and where they are travelling to, they can only check whether the ticket is valid at that point in time.

I am surprised the ticket checks were that often, I would say my tickets are checked onboard on less than 20% of journeys.

Even if your wife had been caught earlier by a ticket inspector on the train, she could well be in the same situation as she committed the offence when she boarded the train with the invalid ticket.

 

[Greenback]

I don't recommend that you continue to try and blame the staff, captain_hook. SWT will see this case as one where a deliberate attempt was made to avoid the proper fare. I won't judge anyone here, that's a matter for the court, but that is a fact. A court may agree, it may not, but it would probably be better for you and your wife if you didn't have to find out!

What you need to do is to concentrate on trying to obtain a settlement.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Thanks for you response.

What's the point of testing an excuse with you guys? You are not judges nor prosecutors, you are just forum people who know a lot about rails and fares. I can't really understand it. I think we all are busy and mature enough to not waste our time on excuses. I am just describing the situation and facts that I have and just asking what are our chances based on this raw facts. I am not asking to believe me, at the end of the day everybody belles in what they decide to believe.

People do do that. It's useful for checking if real judges or prosecutors are likely to believe an excuse, or for having forum members pick out the obvious holes before you use it for real.

To be honest my point is that saying that ticket inspectors are not guilty when they are looking to your ticket and saying it is correct while it is not is an excuse for rail company. This is my personal opinion, one might not agree with me but I deeply believe that duties of ticket inspectors include to check and verify that passengers do have a valid ticket for that specific journey. If one inspector says the tickets are valid but the second one says they are not then it is not passenger's fault but company's as they either did not provide appropriate training or simply do this with a purpose to put somebody into a trouble. Saying that ticket inspectors are not guilty is an excellent excuse for rail company. That is my own personal opinion like yours when you say I have excuses.

Believe it or not this is a view many on here do have sympathy with - most of us firmly believe that one member of staff saying that something is okay should make it okay! This can't practically extend, though, to a member of staff not saying that something is not okay giving any useful information - if they don't notice something then you shouldn't draw any inferences from that.

Thanks Mike. Yes she was buying weekly days travelcards, not monthly / annual.

You said the purchases were in the same transaction. The desk can't sell weeklies, and the machine can't sell Woking to Addlestone seasons. There's no way to buy those tickets at Woking or Waterloo in the same transaction.

 

[captain_hook]

(Based on 2015 prices as I don't have 2014 prices to hand)

The tickets your wife purchased cost £27.40 + £32.10 = £59.50
The required ticket should have cost £94.80 per week (Travelcard from Woking).

Given that it appears that she has been depriving South West Trains of £35 revenue per week you will understand why they will not see this as a trivial matter.
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Depending on where her ticket was checked, it may well have been valid at that point. Unless the guard interrogates every passenger to confirm where they boarded and where they are travelling to, they can only check whether the ticket is valid at that point in time.

I am surprised the ticket checks were that often, I would say my tickets are checked onboard on less than 20% of journeys.

Even if your wife had been caught earlier by a ticket inspector on the train, she could well be in the same situation as she committed the offence when she boarded the train with the invalid ticket.

Hi and thanks for your reply.

I totally understand their point. I agree with you that from their point of view she didn't pay much. But let's see my point as well: my point is that almost everybody always looking for the best value for money. People spending whole night and fighting each other only to get minor discounts on Boxing Day. I mean looking for the best deal is not a purposeful criminal conviction, does it?

Again, I am NOT bringing any excuses, I am just sharing my own thoughts about all this. Look it from my side please: we are quite new in the UK, we never used rail traveclards before; we were always using Oyster cards and are not perfectly familiar with all rail network. My wife is approaching to a member of railway team, asking them what is the best value ticket she can buy as she is not familiar with this, they are advising this option. She then going and buying oyster and rail tickets. Ticket inspectors checking her regularly on the same train and saying the ticket are correct. What conclusion can she make? - obviously that the tickets are correct! With this in mind she is continuing to buy the same tickets thinking they are right.

Regarding train checks: that train from Woking goes either Woking - Waterloo or Woking - Clapham Junction - Waterloo. I was advised that the ticket is wrong in both scenarios. This means that no matter on which point she was checked by inspector, the tickets were wrong and they should advise her that the tickets are wrong by just simply looking to the ticket and seeing the destinations. Am I wrong?

Look to this from our side: one employee advises that this tickets should be fine, another employees checking them regularly on the same route (not every single day but definitely once per 3 days) and saying they are correct. And then somebody catches and says that the tickets are wrong and tries to prosecute you saying that you did this with a purpose. Again, I am not talking about law side, I am talking basic human moral side - do you think this is fair?

I agree that maybe she used wrong tickets but she never did this with a purpose to avoid paying the whole price. SouthWest trains blames her that she was using this for a long time and thus with a purpose. My answer is:
if ticket inspectors had checked her ticket properly on the very first day they would advise her the tickets are wrong, she would have paid the penatly fare on place and use another tickets afterwards and this would never happen as they would simply see she just started to use that tickets and never tell her she was doing this for a long time with a purpose! As they never advised this she continued to use that tickets thinking they are right. So it means that if they checked her properly she would never use them for a whole month and SouthWest train would never blamed her that she did this with a purpose and would never prosecute her!

Also, if she was trying to avoid the fare how come she purchased the most expensive ticket possible after this incident and started to use it regularly?

Again, I am not providing excuses nor defending, I am just saying raw facts. Look to this from human side.
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I don't recommend that you continue to try and blame the staff, captain_hook. SWT will see this case as one where a deliberate attempt was made to avoid the proper fare. I won't judge anyone here, that's a matter for the court, but that is a fact. A court may agree, it may not, but it would probably be better for you and your wife if you didn't have to find out!

What you need to do is to concentrate on trying to obtain a settlement.

Thanks Greenback! I never tried to blame somebody! All I am saying is just my point and my thoughts. I think everybody is free to express their thoughts as long as they don't contain an abuse and complain with laws. I am just saying what I think. Likewise a customer can call to customer service and say "your service is rubbish, I strongly suggest you to train your staff". Is that an offence?
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You said the purchases were in the same transaction. The desk can't sell weeklies, and the machine can't sell Woking to Addlestone seasons. There's no way to buy those tickets at Woking or Waterloo in the same transaction.

Hi Fahad,

Again, I wasn't there and can't say for sure. My wife doesn't remember all bits and pieces of that day. I am not saying this for sure, I am just saying what information I have.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I personally don't believe you, but as you said it's not me you have to convince.

I would add that if you are telling the truth, you should be very careful in dealing with the matter for your wife if you don't have the full details yourself

 

[DelayRepay]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

I totally understand their point. I agree with you that from their point of view she didn't pay much. But let's see my point as well: my point is that almost everybody always looking for the best value for money. People spending whole night and fighting each other only to get minor discounts on Boxing Day. I mean looking for the best deal is not a purposeful criminal conviction, does it?
<Snipping your long post to keep things tidy but I've read it all?

I have no problem with people trying to get the best value but that needs to be with a ticket that's valid.

If the events happened exactly as you have posted, then I do sympathise with your wife's situation. However my sympathy doesn't mean anything because I am not the TOC or the judge. I have to say I am struggling to believe everything and I think it will be difficult for you to convince the TOC that this was all an innocent mistake. As Fahad said, you need to make sure you know exactly what happened if you are going to try to deal with this. Otherwise you may make things worse.

 

[najaB]

I have to say I am struggling to believe everything and I think it will be difficult for you to convince the TOC that this was all an innocent mistake.

I also think that something doesn't make sense about the whole story. I'm not saying you are lying but without confirmation of your story by an official of the TOC I doubt you will convince the court.

 

[captain_hook]

I do understand your points: you don't know us and the facts point on different things. I do understand we can never proof that a random railway clerk suggested a ticket. There are certain things that happen in our lives that we cannot proof.

However I will never accept and understand why ticket inspectors were saying the tickets are correct. There is no proof about clerk story, but it is definitely possible to chase on CCTVs how ticket inspectors were checking her on the same route and saying her tickets are correct. One more fact: the train was almost empty (just a few people) many times when the tickets was checked, so inspectors had plenty of time to check the tickets.

Again, my main concern is that if they looked to her tickets properly and pointed her on the very first day (or in few next days) of her travel then this whole store would never happen as in that case SouthWest would never blame her that she is knowingly avoiding buying tickets. In that case she would pay the penalty fare and that's it. But this all happened only because inspectors checked her and said the ticket is correct.

I don't think it's fair (if you ask me) to blame her on knowingly buying incorrect tickets when their own inspectors didn't say anything after inspecting the tickets.

We are running in circles with this. Every side has its own truth. We can discuss this without end. Hopefully this will be sorted on Monday.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There are thousands of railway stations in the country - is there perhaps a chance that the guards on Woking services (which I believe will usually have come from afar) might not have known where Addlestone is?