Please help, court summons letter

[Llanigraham]

However I will never accept and understand why ticket inspectors were saying the tickets are correct. There is no proof about clerk story, but it is definitely possible to chase on CCTVs how ticket inspectors were checking her on the same route and saying her tickets are correct. One more fact: the train was almost empty (just a few people) many times when the tickets was checked, so inspectors had plenty of time to check the tickets.

And as has already been pointed out to you, the CCTV will not be able to see what those tickets were. All they will show is a passenger being checked. Proves nothing for your case.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And as has already been pointed out to you, the CCTV will not be able to see what those tickets were. All they will show is a passenger being checked. Proves nothing for your case.

Absolutely correct.

We are running in circles with this. Every side has its own truth. We can discuss this without end. Hopefully this will be sorted on Monday.

Yes. I've noticed that as well as you. It can be quite depressing at times reading various people arging amongst themselves.

I just want to emphasise the first bit of advice which I gave you on here, which is to be very patient. There is a very high probability that it will not be resolved on Monday - please try to remain calm while this matter follows its course.

 

[captain_hook]

Absolutely correct.

Yes. I've noticed that as well as you. It can be quite depressing at times reading various people arging amongst themselves.

I just want to emphasise the first bit of advice which I gave you on here, which is to be very patient. There is a very high probability that it will not be resolved on Monday - please try to remain calm while this matter follows its course.

Thanks Dave. Just want to know why there is a high probability that it will not be resolved? Is there any statistics for that or just your guess? Thanks.

 

[najaB]

Thanks Dave. Just want to know why there is a high probability that it will not be resolved? Is there any statistics for that or just your guess? Thanks.

Far be it for me to speak for DaveNewcastle but I think he meant that it's unlikely to be dealt with in one day, not that it won't be resolved in the fullness of time.

 

[captain_hook]

Far be it for me to speak for DaveNewcastle but I think he meant that it's unlikely to be dealt with in one day, not that it won't be resolved in the fullness of time.

Thanks a lot, najaB!! Thanks a lot DaveNewcastle! Thanks a lot all the others, even ManiacMartin who didn't believe a word I said All of you are truly helpful! I really appreciate all your efforts, advises and, why not, skeptics! Sorry for asking so many questions and probably forcing you to repeat some things again.

We will call them on Monday and see what they say.

 

[bb21]

Can we refrain from speculation please. It is of no benefit to anyone.

If the OP told porkies in order to garner sympathy then the advice will not be appropriate and the OP will ultimately be the one who loses out, so I don't think it is in anyone's interest to be telling lies and making up excuses here.

We can all make personal choices whether to help, or otherwise. This section exists in order to help people and offer advice. Playing devil's advocate is fine, speculation best not.

Hi Fahad,

Again, I wasn't there and can't say for sure. My wife doesn't remember all bits and pieces of that day. I am not saying this for sure, I am just saying what information I have.

While I have no reason to doubt anything you said as I mentioned before, I think Fahad did bring up a quite significant inconsistency which may harm your defence. Perhaps your wife's memory is a little vague regarding exactly what happened, or that she may have got a few things mixed up, but I am in agreement with Fahad on the point that there is no way a Woking - Addlestone paper season ticket and a Zones 1-2 Travelcard season stored on Oyster could have been issued in the same transaction from the same ticket office if she bought it at Woking or Waterloo, as only National Rail ticket offices sell the former but they don't sell the latter. Ticket machines at Waterloo can sell weekly versions of the latter, together with London Underground ticket offices, but neither would be able to sell the former. Therefore there is simply no way these two products would have been issued in the same transaction.

Ignoring what intentions others had for doubting your story, I think it is important that you are absolutely certain about the things you claim. If you are not, then don't claim it, otherwise it could do more damage for your case.

If this is her first infringement, there is a good chance a large settlement would be accepted, if the right attitude is shown, but of course there is no guarantee. As I mentioned before, it is very unfortunately the way things have turned out, but it is not the end of the world.

 

[captain_hook]

Can we refrain from speculation please. It is of no benefit to anyone.

If the OP told porkies in order to garner sympathy then the advice will not be appropriate and the OP will ultimately be the one who loses out, so I don't think it is in anyone's interest to be telling lies and making up excuses here.

We can all make personal choices whether to help, or otherwise. This section exists in order to help people and offer advice. Playing devil's advocate is fine, speculation best not.



While I have no reason to doubt anything you said as I mentioned before, I think Fahad did bring up a quite significant inconsistency which may harm your defence. Perhaps your wife's memory is a little vague regarding exactly what happened, or that she may have got a few things mixed up, but I am in agreement with Fahad on the point that there is no way a Woking - Addlestone paper season ticket and a Zones 1-2 Travelcard season stored on Oyster could have been issued in the same transaction from the same ticket office if she bought it at Woking or Waterloo, as only National Rail ticket offices sell the former but they don't sell the latter. Ticket machines at Waterloo can sell weekly versions of the latter, together with London Underground ticket offices, but neither would be able to sell the former. Therefore there is simply no way these two products would have been issued in the same transaction.

Ignoring what intentions others had for doubting your story, I think it is important that you are absolutely certain about the things you claim. If you are not, then don't claim it, otherwise it could do more damage for your case.

If this is her first infringement, there is a good chance a large settlement would be accepted, if the right attitude is shown, but of course there is no guarantee. As I mentioned before, it is very unfortunately the way things have turned out, but it is not the end of the world.

Thanks a lot bb21! Absolutely agree with every word you say and also agree with Fahad's post which is very logical.

As she is very nervous (she was crying all day long after the letter, she never ever had any similar issues in her life) and simply cannot remember everything in details, that's why I am not saying anything for certain apart from the fact that her tickets were checked quite often but this is not something we can use as I was advised. I do, however, understand how important it is.

I will ask her again to remember exactly where that tickets were obtained. Hopefully she will be able to provide more information once she will concentrate. Anyway I understand perfectly well that even if she remember everything there is very, very tiny little chance the clerk will remember her and agree to make a statement. So most likely we cannot proof this anyhow.

 

[DelayRepay]

I will ask her again to remember exactly where that tickets were obtained. Hopefully she will be able to provide more information once she will concentrate. Anyway I understand perfectly well that even if she remember everything there is very, very tiny little chance the clerk will remember her and agree to make a statement. So most likely we cannot proof this anyhow.

How did she pay for the tickets? If she used a card the merchant name and description on her bank statement will clarify which company issued them, and may contain the station name (some TOCs show this, others don't).

Does she still have the paper tickets? Is her Oyster registered online? These are other ways of you possibly confirming where the tickets were purchased if your wife still cannot remember.

 

[captain_hook]

How did she pay for the tickets? If she used a card the merchant name and description on her bank statement will clarify which company issued them, and may contain the station name (some TOCs show this, others don't).

Does she still have the paper tickets? Is her Oyster registered online? These are other ways of you possibly confirming where the tickets were purchased if your wife still cannot remember.

Hi DelayRepay and thanks for your reply!

Her Oyster is not registered and she doesn't have them as the tickets were taken by the inspector who stopped her.

Looking into the bank statement is a good idea. I will look today and report here.

 

[SWTCommuter]

There are thousands of railway stations in the country - is there perhaps a chance that the guards on Woking services (which I believe will usually have come from afar) might not have known where Addlestone is?

When the main line is blocked between Weybridge and Clapham Junction, services are usually diverted through Addlestone and Chertsey to join the Reading-Waterloo line at Virginia Water so presumably most guards will know that route.

 

[Haywain]

Her Oyster is not registered and she doesn't have them as the tickets were taken by the inspector who stopped her.

I was under the impression that until very recently it was a requirement that any Oyster that held a period Travelcard or season had to be registered? Is that not the case?

 

[najaB]

I was under the impression that until very recently it was a requirement that any Oyster that held a period Travelcard or season had to be registered? Is that not the case?

I thought that was only for monthly or longer. Probably wrong though.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks Greenback! I never tried to blame somebody! All I am saying is just my point and my thoughts. I think everybody is free to express their thoughts as long as they don't contain an abuse and complain with laws. I am just saying what I think. Likewise a customer can call to customer service and say "your service is rubbish, I strongly suggest you to train your staff". Is that an offence?

Not at all, but when faced with the possibility of prosecution, which is what you want to avoid, then it isn't really that wise to take a confrontational approach that will probably only work against what you are trying to achieve.

Regardless of what actually happened, there is sufficient evidence available to the rail company to take court action with a high probablity of success. If the members here can find the defence implausible (for whatever reason), then I'd hazard a guess and say that SWT will undoubtedly feel the same way.

Of course, you are entitled to make your own decision and have a right to express your opinion. However, we all have the same right in reply, and my advice to you is simply to accept that you aren't in a good position in law, and to concentrate on mitigating the probable consequences by not suggesting to SWT that they and their staff are incompetent and/or poorly trained.

Again, I wasn't there and can't say for sure. My wife doesn't remember all bits and pieces of that day. I am not saying this for sure, I am just saying what information I have.

This is a central point to me. You weren't there so you can't be absolutely sure of what happened. As bb21 has already advised, if you aren't completely sure, don't even mention it.

 

[island]

I thought that was only for monthly or longer. Probably wrong though.

You are not. An Oyster card need not be registered to have a weekly Travelcard loaded.

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps it would be easier if your wife posted directly onto this thread so that the version of events is 'first-hand' so to speak

 

[swt_passenger]

When the main line is blocked between Weybridge and Clapham Junction, services are usually diverted through Addlestone and Chertsey to join the Reading-Waterloo line at Virginia Water so presumably most guards will know that route.

Woking to London stoppers also use that route all day on Sundays when the normal timetable is running (so not today cos of engineering works), so I'd definitely concur with the idea that SWT onboard staff not knowing about Addlestone is a case of clutching at straws...

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps it would be easier if your wife posted directly onto this thread so that the version of events is 'first-hand' so to speak

I was thinking that. She presumably knows it's being discussed?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Woking to London stoppers also use that route all day on Sundays when the normal timetable is running (so not today cos of engineering works), so I'd definitely concur with the idea that SWT onboard staff not knowing about Addlestone is a case of clutching at straws...

Just a suggestion (from someone very familiar with the area). Wouldn't actually make any difference either way, staff don't have an obligation to spot every discrepancy and them missing one does not validate the ticket

 

[captain_hook]

Hi All,

We are trying to call them, but nobody is picking up. It simply says that no one is available to take our call at the moment.

I've read on the internet that many people experienced this and did not manage to contact them because of this.

Do you guys know by a chance if there is any other number we can dial to speak with them? Thanks.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

At the risk of repeating myself for a third time, I do advise a great amount of patience.

Calling first thing in the morning is the best time, but you will need to keep trying, and it might not be today.

 

[captain_hook]

At the risk of repeating myself for a third time, I do advise a great amount of patience.

Calling first thing in the morning is the best time, but you will need to keep trying, and it might not be today.

Hi Dave,

Thanks again for your post!

We did manage to call them. They said the prosecutor is in court now and not available but they cannot sort this out of court as the prosecutor did not offer this in the letter. She kindly asked if it is ok to send him a letter if he is not available now so that he would be aware of our offer and readiness to sort this out of court. They said she can do so if she wants.

So my questions is: is it better to send a letter to the prosecutor or call again and again until he will be in the office? Thanks.

Also, is there any point of going to Citizen Advice Bureau? I was advised that they might be able to contact them in some cases and speak with them on behalf us. Not sure about this.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would normally suggest making any proposals in writing. But I do realise that you are very impatient and want a quick resolution, which is something that is possible by phone (and it is equally possible that you will receive a quick refusal).

A solicitor with experience in Criminal Defence work will probably be more effective in assisting you than someone from the C.A.B., but I will say that the C.A.B. offers a great service and I do support them; however, your situation might not be in one of their strongest areas of advocacy.

Please be realistic - there is a very good chance that the Railway Company will want to proceed with a Prosecution. That is what their letter to you clearly tells us, unless there is a significant change to circumstances, we should assume that it the most likely outcome.

 

[captain_hook]

I would normally suggest making any proposals in writing. But I do realise that you are very impatient and want a quick resolution, which is something that is possible by phone (and it is equally possible that you will receive a quick refusal).

A solicitor with experience in Criminal Defence work will probably be more effective in assisting you than someone from the C.A.B., but I will say that the C.A.B. offers a great service and I do support them; however, your situation might not be in one of their strongest areas of advocacy.

Please be realistic - there is a very good chance that the Railway Company will want to proceed with a Prosecution. That is what their letter to you clearly tells us, unless there is a significant change to circumstances, we should assume that it the most likely outcome.

Hi Dave and thanks again!

I also prefer a letter as it will allow her to express all her thoughts in detail.

In that case we will write them today and see what they say. Thanks.

 

[Yew]

Dont send the letter immediately after writing it, you might accidentally say something that may incriminate you further.

 

[captain_hook]

Hi All,

A bit late update - this issue was sorted out of court. Thank you for all your responses and help!

 

[najaB]

A bit late update - this issue was sorted out of court. Thank you for all your responses and help!

I'm glad to hear that. Thanks for letting us know what happened. If you don't mind me asking, approximately how much was the settlement? Feel free to send me a PM if you don't want to disclose it in public.