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Police want travel card data to track suspicious rail passengers. How much is our privacy under threat?

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NeilWatson

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NOTE: This article is behind a paywall so this link may not be useful to non-subscribers

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...k-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.

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“So why is somebody doing that? That could be county lines, somebody’s dropping some drugs up there then coming back down to London.

“So how can we look more broadly at what the data is telling us, and then make the choices of whether we want to use that data or not?”

D’Orsi, who would need enhanced data-sharing agreements with TfL and Network Rail to make the plan work, acknowledged the move could worry privacy groups but denied it was a “Big Brother” move. She said generic behaviour rather than individual commuters would be looked at and claimed it could be done while “recognising any civil rights and civil liberties aspects”.

“We’re not looking for [a commuter’s] data, we’re looking for the data of the predatory sex offender,” she said. “So we’re looking for anomalous behaviour. We’re not looking for you as an individual, we’re looking at the behaviour trends. The trends help us to then put it into the system to understand where we need to focus our policing.”

D’Orsi, 52, also wants far greater access to security cameras on the railways. She called for a central control room for all 100,000 CCTV cameras in use. At present the force has real-time access to 40,000 of the cameras.

In a wide-ranging interview, D’Orsi, the force’s first female leader, said a campaign to ask people to report “pervy bloke stares” on the Tube was giving women the confidence to come forward to complain about unwanted sexual behaviour or sexual offending.

She said: “The more the public and victims can report this to us, the more we can start to understand the prevalence of this in particular areas on particular trains, particular times.

“So we’ll be able to use a variety of policing methods in order to either identify them on that occasion or try to bring preventative measures in to stop people offending in the future.”

She said bystanders often moved carriages to avoid behaviour that made them feel “uncomfortable” but asked them to report it as well.

With the new Premier League football season starting on Friday evening, D’Orsi also called for football banning orders to be extended to the rail network.

She said fans should face consequences for “dreadful behaviour” on trains heading to matches just as they do in stadiums. A small percentage of fans gave football a bad reputation, she argued, adding: “There has to be consequences for poor behaviour.”

D’Orsi said that her force was testing drones to spot trespassers and clear tracks, rather than having staff do it, in a move to save time and money.
 

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ANDREW_D_WEBB

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Alot of rail enthusiasts demonstrate the 'behaviours' outlined here, for example spending a long time on the network. Hope it doesn't lead to our hobby being made more difficult to enjoy.
 

Bantamzen

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Whoa, I don't like the sound of that one bit. How about the Police get better funding to put boots on the ground instead of scouring datasets to see who's not as they put it "behaving normally" when on the network? Anyone remotely determined will quickly find ways around this, whilst innocent people could end up being harassed.
 

miami

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Then get a court order to get the travel patterns of a known suspect.

But they don't want that. They want to go on a fishing expidition so they can concentrate on the 1% of people who have "unusual behaviours". That's between 999 and 1000 innocent people in every million.

If I were doing something nefarious I'd buy an oyster card with cash and use that, switching it out every day or two. Of course that will lead to the end of anonymous travel.

If the police have money to spend on some AI system some Valley chap is trying to flog them, they're clearly overbudgeted or mismanaging their budget. Or maybe they've been given it for free so google/facebook/etc can get the data in exchange.
 

DarloRich

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I assume we are all ok with extending football banning orders to trains and using drones. Are we ok with central camera usesage/access? if so why is travel card data such a no no?
Whoa, I don't like the sound of that one bit. How about the Police get better funding to put boots on the ground instead of scouring datasets to see who's not as they put it "behaving normally" when on the network? Anyone remotely determined will quickly find ways around this, whilst innocent people could end up being harassed.
But what are they supposed to do? The government wont fund them properly. How are you going to be "harassed" ?

But they don't want that. They want to go on a fishing expidition so they can concentrate on the 1% of people who have "unusual behaviours". That's between 999 and 1000 innocent people in every million.
What are you worried about?

Alot of rail enthusiasts demonstrate the 'behaviours' outlined here, for example spending a long time on the network. Hope it doesn't lead to our hobby being made more difficult to enjoy.

How will it make your life more difficult? The police aren't going to download your travel data and drag you in for an interview. Surely this will just add to thier intelligence information. The worst they might do is ask you to explain your "strange" travel patterns. That is going to be a quick convo!
 
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yorksrob

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Who as a rail enthusiast hasn't displayed "strange" travel patterns. "Commuters needn't worry" because obviously trudging to your mill or your office is the only legitimate form of travel in the new papers please society.

Do the police routinely scan the numberplate data of motorists to spot unusual travel patterns ? I wonder what the press would have to say.

This woman would have had a bright career in the Stasi by the sounds of it.
 

Bantamzen

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I assume we are all ok with extending football banning orders to trains and using drones. Are we ok with central camera usesage/access? if so why is travel card data such a no no?
No I'm not, as a long standing football fan with thousands of games and over 120 grounds visited I'm not happy with any of it. Any half conscious fan can spot the bad-un's a country mile off, perhaps the po-po need to do a bit better.

But what are they supposed to do? The government wont fund them properly. How are you going to be "harassed" ?
What are the supposed to do, fund them better. And if they won't then let's get a bunch in that will and not stop until a party commits & sticks to it. And I won't be harassed by it, I've been using the rails a lot less recently so won't likely to be flagged up. Its the principle of the matter I'm uncomfortable with, potentially watching people simply because they might spend a day having a jolly up should not be something our security forces should routinely be doing. As @miami rightly states above, if you are suspicious about a person, get the necessary legal paperwork signed off first.
 

SargeNpton

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Who as a rail enthusiast hasn't displayed "strange" travel patterns. "Commuters needn't worry" because obviously trudging to your mill or your office is the only legitimate form of travel in the new papers please society.

Do the police routinely scan the numberplate data of motorists to spot unusual travel patterns ? I wonder what the press would have to say.
Yes they do! ANPR cameras look for vehicles with no tax/insurance/MOT; and to follow the movements of vehicles that they believe may be involved in criminal activities.
 

yorksrob

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Yes they do! ANPR cameras look for vehicles with no tax/insurance/MOT; and to follow the movements of vehicles that they believe may be involved in criminal activities.

Surely looking for a car without tax/insurance/mot is more akin to looking for passengers without valid tickets ?

The BTP probably follow the movement of passengers they believe to be involved with criminal activities, however they should have reason to suspect first, rather than deciding that someone's day trip looks a bit "funny".
 

DarloRich

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Do the police routinely scan the numberplate data of motorists to spot unusual travel patterns ?
Yes - i belive they do ( or at least can)
This woman would have had a bright career in the Stasi by the sounds of it.
Shall we try to keep the hyperbole under control?

No I'm not, as a long standing football fan with thousands of games and over 120 grounds visited I'm not happy with any of it. Any half conscious fan can spot the bad-un's a country mile off, perhaps the po-po need to do a bit better.
Here you seem to be suggesting the police do exactly what you complain about above and act on people with no evidence!

What are the supposed to do, fund them better. And if they won't then let's get a bunch in that will and not stop until a party commits & sticks to it.
I agree. But in the real world.........................
 

Flying Snail

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Yes they do! ANPR cameras look for vehicles with no tax/insurance/MOT; and to follow the movements of vehicles that they believe may be involved in criminal activities.

And if anyone thinks that only the (suspected) bad people's movements are being tracked and logged then they are hopelessly naive.

Every numberplate that passes every ANPR camera gets logged and is almost instantly searchable.

The truth is we have sleepwalked into an Orwellian nightmare that is quickly becoming all consuming, vast networks of data that can now be compiled and attached to actual people automatically, that's not even including all the clandestine snooping the likes of GCHQ engage in.
 

DarloRich

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The truth is we have sleepwalked into an Orwellian nightmare that is quickly becoming all consuming, vast networks of data that can now be compiled and attached to actual people automatically, that's not even including all the clandestine snooping the likes of GCHQ engage in.

That ship sailed long ago - in your pocket you have a tracking device that pumps out more data than anything. When you leave the house your are surveilled by 100's of security cameras.

Can and do are different things.

The police can tap any phone line they like, but I understand they're supposed to get a court order first.
ANPR just happens. This proposal is no different.
 

jfollows

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A stupid idea put out by one of the (too many) stupid police forces who would prefer to be in a warm office drinking coffee and clicking on computers than going out and about to see what's really happening in the world. When TFl introduced Oyster they were very keen to enable it to be used privately, so what's proposed is totally against this. The police would like to arrest us before we commit a crime based on some kind of "footprint" and identified by a computer, it's sinister but it's the sort of thing a lot of the public appears to want.

I'm not paranoid about my privacy but I have a right to privacy which is being steadily eroded by people like this, but I share the view that we have already gone too far with monitoring people from various angles and the incompetent police have resorted to it for some understandable reasons. The statement above about "recognising" civil rights and liberties is interesting because it didn't say "respecting", but I doubt it will be surprising if I say that I think our police have long gone past the point of respecting just about anything.

Can we do anything about this? Well, I don't think a Labour government would make a difference - they wanted mandatory identification cards and ensured that stop and search was possible in the whole of Greater London for no reason (other then the colour of your skin, probably) for a long while.

I just push back against this nonsense in my own small way when I can.
 

DarloRich

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The police would like to arrest us before we commit a crime based on some kind of "footprint" and identified by a computer, it's sinister but it's the sort of thing a lot of the public appears to want.
No they wouldn't! Don't be silly. This proposal is simply another form of intelligence gathering. it is no different to ANPR in my mind.

I just push back against this nonsense in my own small way when I can.
Do you own a mobile?

A stupid idea put out by one of the (too many) stupid police forces who would prefer to be in a warm office drinking coffee and clicking on computers than going out and about to see what's really happening in the world.
In the real world what should they do? They and other forces aren't funding correctly so have to use the resource as best they can. Please don't say they should be better funded.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed. How long before its an AI algorithm deciding that our journeys look a bit odd, and can we please explain ourselves.
 

Purple Train

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Well, that's done it if ever I want to do the Zones 1 & 2 challenge on the Alternative Tube Challenges website. Over seven hours and all I'd get after it would be the police marking me down as a potential drug dealer or sex offender or pickpocket.
Similarly, if I get the train from London to Liverpool to tick off a new bit of track and perhaps go down to the lower level if there's time to see some more Merseyrail units before getting the same train back, that's a nice little trip that doesn't take a hugely long time but it still very helpful for highlighting and underlining.
I still have my quite battered Ian Allan books from 2009-2010. In the front pages of one of them, there is a statement from the then-head of the Association of Train Operating Companies. I can't remember much of his statement, but I do remember that it was "pro-enthusiast" and that he hoped that the railway would be accommodating of everyone in the hobby (or words to that effect). I have a similar page from another publication that said that rail enthusiasts were regarded as helpful, as they provide "extra eyes and ears" for what they know to be unusual, provided published guidance for enthusiasts, and quoted several examples of ignorant and heavy-handed staff/police confronting enthusiasts. I seem to remember it quoted a particular example of a group of spotters at Basingstoke being stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act.
I hope we aren't seeing a return to the days when enthusiasts were viewed as a security risk. I want to enjoy my pork pies and flask of tea in peace, and wear my enamel badges and anorak with pride. The aforementioned quote "extra eyes and ears" accurately describes how I view enthusiasts. Some of us may know more and be able to spot something suspicious better than some security officers (but by no means all). Don't get me wrong, I obviously don't want criminals to be able to freely roam unless they've served their time. But I also won't stand for anything that will limit our ability to indulge in our hobby, and place the millstone of identification as a potential criminal perpetually over our heads. In the words of Lady Catherine de Bourgh, "Is this to be endured?"
(On a separate note, could anyone inform me what the photography guidelines are for TfL? I've seen something on their website, but from the wording it's not quite clear whether it applies to all photographers or just professional photographers.)
 

OscarH

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it is no different to ANPR in my mind.
I was under the impression ANPR is used to detect offences that have been committed with (near) certainty, like not having MOT/insurance, rather than tracking cars locations and determining if they're behaving "suspiciously", and investigating people based on that, which is very different to me
 

Gloster

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And what is unusual behaviour? I once spent something like an hour at Portsmouth Ferry port being questioned by what I think was the resident Special Branch officer after a customs officer discovered something he considered suspicions during a routine check. And what was this suspicious object? Half-a-dozen or so envelopes and some writing paper.

(I was carrying them because I was living in France at the time and coming to visit my parents. While over here I occasionally had odd bits to tie up and letters to send. My father, though usually quite generous, had a quirk in that he got annoyed if you asked to use an envelope: so I always brought my own.)
 

ExRes

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What a load of scaremongering rubbish, anyone who thinks their behaviour is not being monitored needs a good wake up call, every time you use your debit card, credit card, local recycling centre, supermarket car park, virtually any car park actually, your mobile, your computer, facebook, twitter, walk through a shopping area past the myriad of cameras someone somewhere is recording your habits, anyone who fails to understand that needs to go and buy some tin foil, oh and don't use your nectar card
 

66701GBRF

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No they wouldn't! Don't be silly. This proposal is simply another form of intelligence gathering. it is no different to ANPR in my mind.

ANPR is a binary system looking for black and white answers to specific offences. Ie whether the car is insured or taxed or not. There is not a suspicious component to this. ANPR won’t flag because you have circled town or the m25 for a few hours.

Do you own a mobile?

..and? I can turn tracking off and the Police need further evidence and court order for anything else.
 

Fyldeboy

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I think we all want a society in which we feel safe and secure, and yet the majority also don't want the orwellian observation that seems necessary to have any chance of achieving this.

I haven't heard it for a while - but "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about'.

I do understand that the odd 'innocent' might get highlighted, but after a few (brief?) questions all should be good. Likewise I understand many may see this as the 'thin end of the wedge' but the information owned by companies like Google put that into the shade.

I read the thread title and thought 'oh no' but having considered the pros and cons, let it be
 

43066

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Whoa, I don't like the sound of that one bit. How about the Police get better funding to put boots on the ground instead of scouring datasets to see who's not as they put it "behaving normally" when on the network? Anyone remotely determined will quickly find ways around this, whilst innocent people could end up being harassed.

I think we finally fully agree on something! I don’t like the sound of this
either - it’s Orwellian and frankly just smacks of laziness and an excuse to avoid real policing.

If there are concerns about a specific individual they can already be identified on CCTV, and card details can already be tracked where contactless/Oyster etc is used. So what benefit does this proposal add?

It’s easy enough for a beggar/sex offender or whomever to buy a ticket in cash or simply vault a ticket barrier - they’re hardly going to be stupid enough to tap in and out with an identifiable Oyster or bank card!
 

DarloRich

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But I also won't stand for anything that will limit our ability to indulge in our hobby, and place the millstone of identification as a potential criminal perpetually over our heads.

nothing in this proposal will limit your ability to indulge in your hobby. The absolute worst that might happen is someone get asked to explain thier behaviour. Your attire, track atlas and badges will no doubt make that quite a quick conversation!

As a football fan I have been asked many many many times by the old bill to explain what I am up to, where I have been and where I am going etc. I have been videoed and had my picture taken in the ground and in the street. I am sure there is a file on me somewhere.

Funny how no one seems to care about that!


What a load of scaremongering rubbish, anyone who thinks their behaviour is not being monitored needs a good wake up call, every time you use your debit card, credit card, local recycling centre, supermarket car park, virtually any car park actually, your mobile, your computer, facebook, twitter, walk through a shopping area past the myriad of cameras someone somewhere is recording your habits, anyone who fails to understand that needs to go and buy some tin foil, oh and don't use your nectar card

Absolutely - the surveillance ship sailed yonks ago.
 

jfollows

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ANPR data is transferred for long-term storage to the National ANPR Data Centre to be used in the detection of offences "in addition to traffic offences" (per https://infolawcentre.blogs.sas.ac....on-anpr-system-a-gap-in-the-oversight-regime/ from a few years ago) and the Metropolitan Police has its own local copy of the national data - or did have.
The guidelines state (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...licing-and-law-enforcement-accessible-version):
ANPR READ records must be deleted 12 months[footnote 4] after their initial capture, unless retained under provisions of CPIA or similar provisions in Scotland. Retained data may only be accessed in connection with the investigation subject to that retention after a period of 12 months following initial capture.

Records may also be retained for longer than 12 months following a review that identifies a continuing policing purpose for those items of data under provisions of MOPI. These records must be retained and managed in accordance with those provisions. LEAs must establish procedures for the management and review of any data held under these provisions including arrangements for deletion as required.
The retention period used to be 24 months but was, I believe, reduced to 12 months in part because it was noted that hardly any use was ever made of the older records and the reduction would assist in reducing the size of the retained data. However I believe I recall reading reports of complaints that the police were retaining ANPR data for longer periods than the guidelines allowed for - that may have been corrected by now though.
 
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eldomtom2

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The absolute worst that might happen is someone get asked to explain thier behaviour. Your attire, track atlas and badges will no doubt make that quite a quick conversation!
Until the police decide that isn't sufficient proof after a drug dealer disguises themselves as a trainspotter...

I do not trust anyone who says “We’re not looking for [a commuter’s] data, we’re looking for the data of the predatory sex offender", since you won't be able to know whether some data is that of a commuter's or of a sex offender's without looking at it.
 

roversfan2001

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As a football fan I have been asked many many many times by the old bill to explain what I am up to, where I have been and where I am going etc. I have been videoed and had my picture taken in the ground and in the street. I am sure there is a file on me somewhere.

Funny how no one seems to care about that!
That's because the prevailing viewpoint on this forum is that all football fans are thugs who should be allowed nowhere near the rail network, or indeed society in general. ;)
 

43096

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Until the police decide that isn't sufficient proof after a drug dealer disguises themselves as a trainspotter...

I do not trust anyone who says “We’re not looking for [a commuter’s] data, we’re looking for the data of the predatory sex offender", since you won't be able to know whether some data is that of a commuter's or of a sex offender's without looking at it.
BTP appear to be ruling out the possibility that a predatory sex offender could also be a commuter.
 
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