Poor platform allocating at Liverpool Lime Street

[jfollows]

Tunnel controls?
Does that mean there are limits on the number of trains allowed in the tunnelled sections up to Edge Hill?

No, "Lime Street Controls", for example from https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:glossary:lime_street_control:

Lime Street Control​

Where a train is to be called-on into an occupied platform, it is obviously desirable that the platform be long enough to accommodate the additional train - especially in cases where the signaller is unable to see either the train, the platform, or both. Therefore, Lime Street Control uses a set of track circuits to approximately determine both platform space available and the length of the train approaching.

Because of the cost of track circuits, this method only works with certain combinations of trains. For example, at a particular London terminus, each platform has a 4-carriage length track circuit at the signal end of the platform (let's call it TC'A'), and a 4-carriage length measuring track on the station approach signal (let's call it TC'B'), and an additional track approaching the measuring track (let's call it TC'C'). The conditions for the calling-on aspect to be shown are therefore (TC'A' clear) and (TC'B' occupied) and (TC'C' clear), along with the usual conditions.

In the example above, with just a light engine at the buffer stops and a five car train approaching, the signal will never clear to a calling-on aspect as the equipment is only set up to measure the final four carriages possible. Other stations may have a 4-car and an 8-car (for example) set of measuring tracks and platform tracks but these are more rare due to the expense and complexity.

At Victoria Central, the track circuit information for the platforms is as above, but it is possible to get the calling on signal for an 8-car arriving train. If you are not careful, then it is possible to put an 8-car arriving train on top of an 8-car stabled train in a 12-car platform!

History from https://reference.swindonpanel.org.uk/index.php/Signalling_Controls:

The checking by virtue of track circuits being occupied and clear, that there is sufficient room in a partially-occupied platform to accommodate a second train. Track circuits of a known length are provided in the platform line and in rear of the previous signal to achieve this.

On 31 July 1924 the 2.40pm Euston-Liverpool arrived on platform 7 at Liverpool Lime Street and crashed into a light engine that was standing half-way down the platform. The signalman was not aware of the light locomotive's presence. A recommendation from this accident was the fitting of track circuiting, which has since developed further into using track circuits to 'measure' trains.

EDIT What I take the post from Trothy to mean is that the implementation of "Lime Street Controls" at Lime Street prevents certain train movements devised by the planners in Milton Keynes because the latter are not sufficiently aware of the details of how the system works.

 

[LowLevel]

If you don't leave the train locked up with top train working/platform sharing going on, either you leave a load of people behind or someone has to walk through the open train shouting/making announcements (not possible when it isn't your own TOC's train).

Lime St is a pain in the arse when a 150 or similar is left on the blocks for hours with the doors open. Where I work, either the dispatcher, a guard or a driver can lock up a train if necessary. I believe under Northern only guards are permitted to do it.

My goodwill in terms of walking along it extracting Chinese tourists gets stretched at times. The same has been happening at Norwich with 755s unattended for ages too.

The 0748 Liverpool - Norwich is however mostly a commuter train between Liverpool and Manchester.

The crew are often missing in action until fairly late because they have to get up before 2am for an 03xx book on and either clear off for breakfast or a nap.

 

[Trothy]

Tunnel controls?
Does that mean there are limits on the number of trains allowed in the tunnelled sections up to Edge Hill?

Nothing quite that exciting. The single bore tunnel from platform 1, the signal at the end of the platform will not clear unless the forward route is set. (Too stop the train getting held in the tunnel)

What I take the post from Trothy to mean is that the implementation of "Lime Street Controls" at Lime Street prevents certain train movements devised by the planners in Milton Keynes because the latter are not sufficiently aware of the details of how the system works.

Yup! That's what I meant. Though the tunnel control I mentioned is a separate control that applies to Platform 1 only.

 

[43066]

Walkmans and newspapers would have had a similar effect though. Even long before that people were getting the wrong train or not getting the right portion, or off at the right place. Oh Mr Porter dates back to 1892!

I’m sure there some truth in that, but Walkmans weren’t as ubiquitous as smart phones are today.

It's a shared responsibility. The railway should take reasonable actions to try and prevent passengers making understandable errors,

True. It clearly isn’t ideal to have subsequent departures on the same platform with doors open on both, but occasionally cannot be helped eg we have situations where a ten car will come in empty, split into two fives which depart three minutes apart. It simply isn’t practical to leave rear five locked as the crowd would prevent people reaching the front unit.

On the other hand it sometimes happens where two sets have come in separately on top of each other, and there’s a spare adjacent platform, which is rather maddening to the onboard staff and platform staff who bear the brunt of the anger when people end up on the wrong train! That does start to smack of poor (or at least lazy) platform planning.

My comment was based on a number of the stories I've seen on the Prosecutions sections on here.

Vanishingly few (if any) of which involve people actually being prosecuted for making “honest mistakes”.

Not to "encourage people to make errors", no, but if I was a passenger at a terminal on a cold, damp, windy day and the option of waiting in comfort on the train was potentially available to me but I couldn't because the train was locked out of use, I'd be a little peeved.

Sometimes a judgment call has to be made, and minor inconvenience is still preferable to half a dozen or more people being seriously delayed, and potentially pulling a passcom, or similar, when they realise they’re on the wrong train. The example in the OP is Liverpool Lime St which is a terminal station with an over-roof.

 

[geoffk]

Manchester Airport station couldn't function without trains being stacked one behind the other and many of the passengers arriving from the airport terminal will be overseas visitors unfamiliar with the UK rail scene. Perhaps for that very reason they pay more attention. I always found signage and, usually, staff presence to be adequate. I expect a lot will just be wanting Manchester so the only "wrong train" will be the one to Crewe!

 

[Peter0124]

Locking the train until less than 10 minutes before departure, in my opinion is very annoying

 

[zwk500]

On the other hand it sometimes happens where two sets have come in separately on top of each other, and there’s a spare adjacent platform, which is rather maddening to the onboard staff and platform staff who bear the brunt of the anger when people end up on the wrong train! That does start to smack of poor (or at least lazy) platform planning.

I would count putting trains into separate platforms when available as very much within the list of reasonable actions the railway should be taking. There are sometimes very good reasons for it, but I do agree it's poor optics.

 

[geoffk]

Locking the train until less than 10 minutes before departure, in my opinion is very annoying

It happened regularly at York when I was waiting for the Blackpool train. There was never another train in front of it but I don't know what the crew's previous working would have been.

 

[Spartacus]

Locking the train until less than 10 minutes before departure, in my opinion is very annoying

On thing not mentioned so far is that if the crew's not going to be on it, leaving stock open to the public only encourages vandalism, whether it be malicious or simply a result of people being sat bored without thinking.

 

[Krokodil]

It seems inconsistent to "protect" passengers from boarding the wrong train by locking it up, but not "protect" passengers from threats of prosecution if they inadvertently use the wrong ticket.

I used to "protect" passengers with the wrong ticket by checking them when boarding (either at the entrance to the platform, or by opening a single door). "That's an Avanti ticket, you want platform 9" etc.

Manchester Airport station couldn't function without trains being stacked one behind the other and many of the passengers arriving from the airport terminal will be overseas visitors unfamiliar with the UK rail scene. Perhaps for that very reason they pay more attention. I always found signage and, usually, staff presence to be adequate. I expect a lot will just be wanting Manchester so the only "wrong train" will be the one to Crewe!

Stacking is pretty rare at MIA these days. When it does happen it is usually a unit that has been locked and left. When it was a normal part of the hourly timetable I used to lock up my unit in the A end platform to stop any passengers who should be boarding the B end train from getting on. It was certainly an issue even though MIA has "A" and "B" platforms to help - unlike Lime St.

 

[LowLevel]

I used to "protect" passengers with the wrong ticket by checking them when boarding (either at the entrance to the platform, or by opening a single door). "That's an Avanti ticket, you want platform 9" etc.


Stacking is pretty rare at MIA these days. When it does happen it is usually a unit that has been locked and left. When it was a normal part of the hourly timetable I used to lock up my unit in the A end platform to stop any passengers who should be boarding the B end train from getting on. It was certainly an issue even though MIA has "A" and "B" platforms to help - unlike Lime St.

I "protect" people by doing that on the 2137 Nottingham from time to time, but the protection is largely for my entertainment seeing the Widnes "darlings" rock up and seeing me blocking the door with my ticket machine, along with the Deliveroo bloke who tries to blag it every single night and hasn't realised we talk to each other, either start counting coppers or going to try another easier target

 

[43055]

On thing not mentioned so far is that if the crew's not going to be on it, leaving stock open to the public only encourages vandalism, whether it be malicious or simply a result of people being sat bored without thinking.

It can also ensure that all the Crew are present. One evening I got the Derby - Crewe service and was unlocked as normal in the 20 min layover at Derby it was only found out that there was no conductor on departure so everyone had to be turfed off with the service being cancelled.

 

[setdown]

I remember using the old platform 8, and my London Midland service was due to leave in 5 minutes...until a Pendolino turned up and blocked us in. Now that was poor platform allocating!

 

[MattRat]

It was certainly an issue even though MIA has "A" and "B" platforms to help - unlike Lime St.

That's a thought. Why doesn't Lime Street have A and B platforms to help passengers?

 

[Bevan Price]

I remember using the old platform 8, and my London Midland service was due to leave in 5 minutes...until a Pendolino turned up and blocked us in. Now that was poor platform allocating!

The rear of that Pendolino must have been off the end of the platform. 11 Pendolino coaches just fit into the platforms with a few yards to spare.
Assuming you were on a 350, then even a 9 coach 390 would be too long to fit in the same platform.

 

[L401CJF]

Speaking from a train crew perspective its a pain in the backside when the unit up to the buffer stops is unlocked when the next service is "front train only" at Lime Street.

Going back a few months I worked a morning peak Lime Street to Chester service 2 days on the bounce. Both days it worked from platform 7 (2 car 153).

Both days It was right down the end of the platform with a 4 car Northern 150/156 set up against the blocks which would depart shortly after us to Manchester Oxford Road. The first day it was unlocked. As it happens platform staff were very proactive walking through the unlocked unit making sure nobody for Chester had boarded it. Of course they had, and staff moved lots of people off it and onto the right train. The second day it was locked up, so I stayed near the buffer end of the platform to call people for Chester to the front train - plenty standing outside the locked Northern constantly pressing the open door button hoping it would suddenly be unlocked!

Regarding other comments about train doors being locked until a few minutes before departure, I will do this myself if I need to go and grab some lunch or something if my driver isn't intending to stay with the train. We arnt supposed to leave units unattended with passengers onboard. If I'm staying on the train, I'll just leave them open.

 

[Bantamzen]

I remember one occasion at Leeds on P9 where two units were next to each other, one headed for Sheffield the other York. I boarded the former and as I did the guard announced the train as being the xx:xx to Sheffield. About a minute later another voice came over the PA and announced that this was the xx:xx to York. So you can imagine the confusion as passengers started to get up from their seats, only for the original voice to return to say "Please ignore that last message, this is the xx:xx to Sheffield. The silly sod that said it was for York got on the wrong train!!".

So I can understand why in the situation described by the OP the rear train was locked out until the front one was ready to go.

 

[43066]

Locking the train until less than 10 minutes before departure, in my opinion is very annoying

Then again a train isn’t supposed to be a waiting room…

 

[Spartacus]

I remember one occasion at Leeds on P9 where two units were next to each other, one headed for Sheffield the other York. I boarded the former and as I did the guard announced the train as being the xx:xx to Sheffield. About a minute later another voice came over the PA and announced that this was the xx:xx to York. So you can imagine the confusion as passengers started to get up from their seats, only for the original voice to return to say "Please ignore that last message, this is the xx:xx to Sheffield. The silly sod that said it was for York got on the wrong train!!".

So I can understand why in the situation described by the OP the rear train was locked out until the front one was ready to go.

It didn't even take two to be in the same platform at Leeds. Back when TPE had 170s there used to be a Leeds - Huddersfield service from Hull, around 18:00, a very useful relief to the 17:55 which was usually packed. The 18:00 though went off 12C, not too long before a Northern off either 12C or 12C (which was never in the platform at the same time) but inevitably when the 170 rolled in, despite it being in a different livery and stock which Northern didn't have at the time, promptly filled up with passengers for Bramley, New Pudsey, Bradford Interchange, Halifax etc. The guard regularly made announcements before departure, upon which the train practically almost emptied, but it was still normal for at least a few passengers to go home via Huddersfield.

A rather nice 170, declassified first class, practically empty anyway, and the entertainment of passengers getting on, often commenting on the quality of the train, then shortly later getting off again, it was worth waiting for that one even when I could have gone home earlier!

 

[frodshamfella]

Speaking from a train crew perspective its a pain in the backside when the unit up to the buffer stops is unlocked when the next service is "front train only" at Lime Street.

Going back a few months I worked a morning peak Lime Street to Chester service 2 days on the bounce. Both days it worked from platform 7 (2 car 153).

Both days It was right down the end of the platform with a 4 car Northern 150/156 set up against the blocks which would depart shortly after us to Manchester Oxford Road. The first day it was unlocked. As it happens platform staff were very proactive walking through the unlocked unit making sure nobody for Chester had boarded it. Of course they had, and staff moved lots of people off it and onto the right train. The second day it was locked up, so I stayed near the buffer end of the platform to call people for Chester to the front train - plenty standing outside the locked Northern constantly pressing the open door button hoping it would suddenly be unlocked!

Regarding other comments about train doors being locked until a few minutes before departure, I will do this myself if I need to go and grab some lunch or something if my driver isn't intending to stay with the train. We arnt supposed to leave units unattended with passengers onboard. If I'm staying on the train, I'll just leave them open.

I use the Lime Street to Frodsham service quite often. I know its a red TFW train, but that's because I have some interest in railways, the general public just look for a train and that's it.

 

[Krokodil]

I use the Lime Street to Frodsham service quite often. I know its a red TFW train, but that's because I have some interest in railways, the general public just look for a train and that's it.

Good job that the on-hire Northern 150s haven't been used on those services.

 

[Peter0124]

Then again a train isn’t supposed to be a waiting room…

And what happens if the station it happens at, has poor waiting facilities?

 

[zwk500]

And what happens if the station it happens at, has poor waiting facilities?

And how often does it happen at such stations? I'm struggling to think of a terminal station where the driver might leave the train unattended (and therefore presumably has a breakout room or similar) that doesn't also have passenger facilities.

 

[sammyg901]

Very common scenario at Marylebone - my usual train is the 1730 to Aylesbury Vale Parkway. The 1721 to Banbury goes "on top". Occasionally there will be a problem on the "mainline" preventing it's departure but we're then trapped behind it when we could have gone, but it's unusual and usually it works fine. The regulars know the drill and wait at the rear unit and help to direct intending passengers up towards the front unit.

My arriving train did block a departing train a few weeks ago in the morning peak much to the driver and platform staff amusement. I looked back on RTT and it looked like they solved it by using my arrival as that service instead which was likely the easiest fix!

The primary reason for two departures close together from the same platform at Marylebone seems to be that is the stock has come in and either divided or attached to form both workings. So not easily avoidable without big diagram changes.

One thing that sounds different vs other stations is everyone is studious about the rear units being locked until the front train has departed. I can see how that would cause an issue. Once people can't open a door they either realise themselves or can easily be directed along the platform to the correct unit

 

[43066]

And what happens if the station it happens at, has poor waiting facilities?

At most non terminal stations, if you turn up ten minutes before departure, there won’t be a train at all! There also often aren’t any waiting facilities beyond a bench, and perhaps a bus stop style shelter, if you’re lucky.

And how often does it happen at such stations? I'm struggling to think of a terminal station where the driver might leave the train unattended (and therefore presumably has a breakout room or similar) that doesn't also have passenger facilities.

Indeed.

 

[louis97]

EDIT What I take the post from Trothy to mean is that the implementation of "Lime Street Controls" at Lime Street prevents certain train movements devised by the planners in Milton Keynes because the latter are not sufficiently aware of the details of how the system works.

Its a non-issue now anyway as the Lime Street controls are not in the interlocking at Lime Street anymore, assuming the scheme went ahead as planned. It is programmed into the ARS and it won't set a route into a platform occupied where it thinks the arriving train is too long. However the signaller can manually set the route. Really the issue lie with the fact planners at Milton Keynes may not always be aware of the planned stock allocation for a service.

 

[zwk500]

Really the issue lie with the fact planners at Milton Keynes may not always be aware of the planned stock allocation for a service.

A problem more often than not caused by TOCs providing inaccurate or outdated information to MK, rather than staff ignoring or being unable to find the bid-for diagrams.

 

[urbophile]

It's silly in the sense that announcements or electronic displays can be used to direct people onto the correct train, allowing people to wait for departure in comfort on the train.

As I said, in the slam-door era, this was commonplace at terminal stations such as Waterloo, Brighton or Portsmouth Harbour. I don't remember them locking the "back" train.

They can be, if they are phrased carefully. 'The front train' to rail staff and the sort of people who post on here, obviously means the one furthest from the buffer stops which will leave first. To many (most?) other people it will mean the one in front of them.

 

[louis97]

A problem more often than not caused by TOCs providing inaccurate or outdated information to MK, rather than staff ignoring or being unable to find the bid-for diagrams.

I was not pointing the finger, but you've hit the nail on the head. The tighter timescales at the moment don't help either.

 

[Trothy]

Its a non-issue now anyway as the Lime Street controls are not in the interlocking at Lime Street anymore, assuming the scheme went ahead as planned. It is programmed into the ARS and it won't set a route into a platform occupied where it thinks the arriving train is too long. However the signaller can manually set the route. Really the issue lie with the fact planners at Milton Keynes may not always be aware of the planned stock allocation for a service.

Wow. Let's unpick how much of this is wrong.

First of all Lime St controls are in the interlocking on all platforms with the exception of 7 and 8.

Lime St Workstation has no ARS at all.

ARS as fitted to workstations in Manchester ROC has no idea what stock is allocated to a service and as such cannot judge train lengths.