Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Killingworth]

Returned from Southport on 16.15, same unit as we went. Lost a couple of minutes on diesel to Bolton but time allowed there adequate to leave on time on electric. Easily maintained schedule from there with minutes to spare.

With windows open diesel is certainly noisier than electric, but no more so than a 150. Very lightly loaded so hard to judge what effect more passengers will have. Presumably slower on loading and unloading.

No doubt as experience grows drivers will be finding ways to get better performance. Hopefully the investment will finally be found to have been worth waiting for.

 

[Kite159]

I assume they are booked to use platform 5 loop at Bolton to get them out of the way of the mainline in the event of power changeover issues?

 

[Killingworth]

I assume they are booked to use platform 5 loop at Bolton to get them out of the way of the mainline in the event of power changeover issues?

Platform 5 towards Southport, 3 towards Alderley Edge. It may be a bit nerve wracking arriving at Bolton and trusting the diesel engines will start!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Had my first "bash" on one today in declassified First - Stockport to Heaton Chapel! All of three minutes!

 

[Wyrleybart]

If they don't want to use them then I'm sure TfW would be happy to hire them over the summer!

For what though ? AIUI TfW should have nine 769s, with maybe six or seven in traffic everyday. The Rhymney line has three all day diagrams as well as an ECS from Rhymney to Bargoed in the mornings and a couple of evening trips. Unless TfW are planning to train more crew on 769s they already have enough for the Rhymney route.

I would say there is plenty more scope for Northern to use them instead of pairs of 150s

 

[Roger B]

For what though ? AIUI TfW should have nine 769s, with maybe six or seven in traffic everyday. The Rhymney line has three all day diagrams as well as an ECS from Rhymney to Bargoed in the mornings and a couple of evening trips. Unless TfW are planning to train more crew on 769s they already have enough for the Rhymney route.

I would say there is plenty more scope for Northern to use them instead of pairs of 150s

And yet according to the 769 TfW thread, there was just a single 769 working the Rhymney's yesterday - the other diagrams being 150s! TfW do seem to struggle getting their 769s out. There's much comment on that thread bigging-up TfW's efforts, whilst knocking Northern's. Whereas Northern managed to get 5 or 6 769's out working yesterday - which is way more than TfW have managed to date - and the TfW's 769s are diesel only (pantographs have been removed), and workings don't include changeover between diesel and electric (and vice versa) either.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The truly sad thing about this project (aside from the interminable delay in getting it to work after experts said it was practical) is that Northern ordered two whole fleets of single mode vehicles partly predicated on needing higher spec stock for Northern Connect which seems to be (ahem) less than prominent now. Add to that a relatively small number of 769s when a lot of Northern's services seem to me to beg for bi-mode and it becomes a "what might have been" project. But good to see them in service and hopefully at the worst pathfinders for more bi-modes on several operators.

 

[Jonny]

Returned from Southport on 16.15, same unit as we went. Lost a couple of minutes on diesel to Bolton but time allowed there adequate to leave on time on electric. Easily maintained schedule from there with minutes to spare.

With windows open diesel is certainly noisier than electric, but no more so than a 150. Very lightly loaded so hard to judge what effect more passengers will have. Presumably slower on loading and unloading.

No doubt as experience grows drivers will be finding ways to get better performance. Hopefully the investment will finally be found to have been worth waiting for.

Showing as having arrived early (albeit 1 minute) on RealTimeTrains:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L08709/2021-05-17#allox_id=0 backup https://archive.ph/bRyr6

 

[D9006]

i shall have try one out especially the climb from Wigan up Hindley, not massive incline but enough to get a decent thrash out of it

 

[Killingworth]

Showing as having arrived early (albeit 1 minute) on RealTimeTrains:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L08709/2021-05-17#allox_id=0 backup https://archive.ph/bRyr6

Was a minute early at most detailed points after Bolton but curiously that doesn't show on that archived search. Watching RTT at the time it showed -2 at one point and that tallied closely with my own timings, but whether 15 or 30 seconds difference they were on the right side.

Incidentally there were numerous photographs being taken at stations and vantage points along the route.

 

[Bikeman78]

For what though ? AIUI TfW should have nine 769s, with maybe six or seven in traffic everyday. The Rhymney line has three all day diagrams as well as an ECS from Rhymney to Bargoed in the mornings and a couple of evening trips. Unless TfW are planning to train more crew on 769s they already have enough for the Rhymney route.

I would say there is plenty more scope for Northern to use them instead of pairs of 150s

I meant hiring any surplus 150s or 158s to strengthen the North Wales Coast.

 

[PHILIPE]

I meant hiring any surplus 150s or 158s to strengthen the North Wales Coast.

TFW should have 6 diagrams, 3 Rhymneys and 3 Bargoeds ro Penarth which can be interchangeable through locations of overnight stabling.
At the moment there are NO surplus 150 or 158 units ANYWHERE

 

[Bikeman78]

TFW should have 6 diagrams, 3 Rhymneys and 3 Bargoeds ro Penarth which can be interchangeable through locations of overnight stabling.
At the moment there are NO surplus 150 or 158 units ANYWHERE

See post 5279. I was suggesting that if Northern didn't want to use the DMUs freed up by 769s then maybe TFW would like to hire them.

 

[PHILIPE]

See post 5279. I was suggesting that if Northern didn't want to use the DMUs freed up by 769s then maybe TFW would like to hire them.

Any Northern 150s or156s thrown up by the 769s have been absorbed. One such example is splitting some 150s and forming up smoe 3 x Car sets. They are no better off than TFW

 

[Neptune]

See post 5279. I was suggesting that if Northern didn't want to use the DMUs freed up by 769s then maybe TFW would like to hire them.

Northern do want to use them. This has been mentioned in other threads that northern are not in any position to give stock away due to the 195/331 issue.

How do you think it would it look if Northern hire out some units to help out the North Wales Coast when there are planned cancellations due to a shortage of rolling stock.

Is it another case of sod northern, there are more ‘important’ areas to think about?

 

[37201xoIM]

Absolutely right, 50006. Covid aside, NT have had a chronic shortage of (diesel) rolling stock for some years, both in terms of resourcing existing services and as a major constraint to new services that so many want to see. That DMU shortage was part (only part) of the reason, right or wrong, for the decision to go for 769s. I'm sure they would rightly resist any suggestion they should give anything away, to Wales or anywhere!

 

[S&CLER]

769434 is working the 15:17 SOP-ALD today

 

[Killingworth]

Absolutely right, 50006. Covid aside, NT have had a chronic shortage of (diesel) rolling stock for some years, both in terms of resourcing existing services and as a major constraint to new services that so many want to see. That DMU shortage was part (only part) of the reason, right or wrong, for the decision to go for 769s. I'm sure they would rightly resist any suggestion they should give anything away, to Wales or anywhere!

Quite apart from 769s living up to specification in regular service and proving reliable. Sadly, small fleets tend to have short lives. After the long wait it would be good to hear they were so successful that Northern wanted to order more rather than handing them on.

 

[Grannyjoans]

They seem to struggle to keep on time on the Diesel part of the journey often falling a minute or two behind then make time up on the Electric part of the journey. That's what I've seen looking on RTT.

Do all of the 769s have first class seats ?

I only just realised, RTT now usually tells you what Unit is working the service

 

[Class319&373]

I had my first 769 ride yesterday (on 769442) and it accelerated and performed way better than people made out, I tried to do some videos both ways onboard (on the Southport-Alderley Edge services) but a signal fault between Burscough Bridge and Southport brought the speed down to snails pace towards the end of the day. And according to today's RTT readings the same issue is still affecting the 150/156 and 769 times.

 

[WAO]

The Southport line should be a good route for 769's as it is generally easily graded as far as Wigan, where installed power is not so important. The pity is that on the following steeper part where more power is needed, the Lostock - Wigan wiring proposal, supposedly stuck on a sleepy DfT official's desk, hasn't been actioned.

WAO

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Railway Gazette article here:
Class 769 bi-mode trainsets enter service with Northern | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International

The Class 769s are cleared to change between electric and diesel modes at a number of locations including Bolton, Manchester Victoria and Salford Crescent. The changeover is intended to be very rapid, with no extension to station dwell times or need for pre-heating of the diesel powerpacks.

Northern’s first revenue service to be worked by a Class 769 was the 05.50 from Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge; 769 450 departed in diesel mode and became the first set to switch power modes in passenger service when it made a 1 min stop at Bolton.

Observers on the initial runs reported some localised wheelslip issues caused by the relatively harsh weather conditions, but the trains were able to keep to timings without any difficulty. This is despite a late decision by Network Rail not to allow the trains to run at their 160 km/h design speed in electric mode. This is reportedly because of a cautious view of track impacts resulting from the additional mass being carried on the driving cars of each four-car unit; the diesel powerpacks add around 7∙5 tonnes to the weight of these vehicles. As a result, the 769s will be limited to 120 km/h in both modes.

Disappointing about the limitation to 120km/h (75mph) on electric, definitely not part of the spec.
They won't be much use on Northern services over the WCML with that restriction, nor on the GWML with GWR.
Elsewhere it says they do slightly better than a 150 on diesel.

 

[craigybagel]

Railway Gazette article here:
Class 769 bi-mode trainsets enter service with Northern | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International


Disappointing about the limitation to 120km/h (75mph) on electric, definitely not part of the spec.
They won't be much use on Northern services over the WCML with that restriction, nor on the GWML with GWR.
Elsewhere it says they do slightly better than a 150 on diesel.

Presumably the timings haven't changed yet from when they were booked for 75mph Sprinters? In any case Bolton - Salford is the only part of the journey they're likely to get over 75 anyway so I doubt the limited speed would cost very much time overall.

The late nature of the decision by Network Rail, and the admission this is a cautious view suggests it might be able to be changed in the future when more is known about these units and how they interact with the track.

 

[Killingworth]

Railway Gazette article here:
Class 769 bi-mode trainsets enter service with Northern | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International


Disappointing about the limitation to 120km/h (75mph) on electric, definitely not part of the spec.
They won't be much use on Northern services over the WCML with that restriction, nor on the GWML with GWR.
Elsewhere it says they do slightly better than a 150 on diesel.

Curious that RTT shows pathed at 100mph as a 319 from Alderley Edge, presumably because 769 isnt an available planning option. 10.50 from Alderley Edge today

We kept well up to 75 on electric on Monday when we travelled!

 

[175001]

They are only limited to 75mph between Bolton and Salford due to weight.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are only limited to 75mph between Bolton and Salford due to weight.

Not on Piccadilly-Wilmslow then?

 

[Halish Railway]

They are only limited to 75mph between Bolton and Salford due to weight.

I’m assuming that this is to do with the speed differentials between Bolton and Salford, thus because of their weight they can’t use MU differentials, although if this logic did apply then they could still go up to 80mph.

Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m sure that there was a similar situation in place for the 185s when they were used on services along the route post-electrification.

 

[Bikeman78]

Railway Gazette article here:
Class 769 bi-mode trainsets enter service with Northern | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International


Disappointing about the limitation to 120km/h (75mph) on electric, definitely not part of the spec.
They won't be much use on Northern services over the WCML with that restriction, nor on the GWML with GWR.
Elsewhere it says they do slightly better than a 150 on diesel.

How much do the end cars with the diesel engines weigh? I suspect they weigh less than the car with the traction motors.

 

[43102EMR]

Railway Gazette article here:
Class 769 bi-mode trainsets enter service with Northern | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International


Disappointing about the limitation to 120km/h (75mph) on electric, definitely not part of the spec.
They won't be much use on Northern services over the WCML with that restriction, nor on the GWML with GWR.
Elsewhere it says they do slightly better than a 150 on diesel.

GWR only plan to use them on the Thames Valley branches and North Downs route, so they’ll only be using the overheads on ECS workings. Not to mention they aren’t cleared to run east of Slough/Maidenhead I believe.

 

[Jonny]

How much do the end cars with the diesel engines weigh? I suspect they weigh less than the car with the traction motors.

It might be an issue relating to the proximity of one to another, and then there is the matter of additional weight on the same braking system (possibly a stopping distance issue, depending on the signalling stop distances at speed).