Portsmouth & Southsea / Harbour services.

[alistairlees]

Journey planners are still insisting on ignoring the normal connections between Wightlink’s catamarans at both Portsmouth Harbour and Ryde Pierhead, rendering them useless for sensible planning (and surely putting off prospective travellers). Combined with the 35+ minute connection with the fast Waterloo trains at the harbour for most of the day, it produces some staggeringly slow itineraries. Someone travelling from the island will be expected to have spent the best part of two hours waiting for the approved connections on both sides of the Solent before their train from the Harbour even starts to move.

I’m not sure how this works for someone on a timed advance ticket from an island station. If the mainland train is also specified, do they have to hang about at the harbour waiting for it, even though the cat will have delivered them in time to catch one an hour earlier?

Do you have an example? Journey planning engines must follow the data that the industry distributes, and the rules that relate to that data.

 

[hermit]

According to the timetable on the SWR website (the successor to the printed timetables of old) someone leaving Shanklin at 1414 will get to Waterloo at 1701, with connection times of 5 minutes at Ryde Pierhead and 8 minutes at Portsmouth Harbour. These are ample if services are running normally.
If you create an itinerary on a journey planner, our passenger leaving Shanklin at 1414 will not reach Waterloo until 1843, with connecting times of 65 minutes at Pierhead and 38 minutes at Portsmouth Harbour.
Similar extended journey times apply to all journeys in both directions.
Pre- Covid, journey planners accepted the normal single-figure connections, which do work most of the time. It is since Covid that whoever is responsible for setting minimum connection times has decreed that 20 minutes should apply to connections with Wightlink. I suspect the reason for this is to limit exposure to delay repay claims on through tickets if trains miss ferries and v.v., but it does render journey planners at best useless, and at worst very misleading.

 

[alistairlees]

Here's the timetable that @hermit refers to (link PDF timetable list on SWR wesite - you'll need to select "Timetable 24"): https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/timetables.

@hermit is, indeed, correct. The SWR printed timetable showsan itinerary that is no longer supported by the data, with a 5 minute change at Ryde Pier Head, and 8 minutes at Portsmouth Harbour (these are now, respectively, 19 minutes and 20 minutes minimum interchange times - meaning that you have to wait 65 minutes at Ryde Pier Head, and a similar time at Portsmouth Harbour).

Strictly speaking, the SWR timetable is wrong. But I do agree that this is a very poor customer experience. All that money spent on "upgrading" the Island Line and repairing the pier was really just wasted.

 

[DelW]

Here's the timetable that @hermit refers to (link PDF timetable list on SWR wesite - you'll need to select "Timetable 24"): https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/timetables.

@hermit is, indeed, correct. The SWR printed timetable showsan itinerary that is no longer supported by the data, with a 5 minute change at Ryde Pier Head, and 8 minutes at Portsmouth Harbour (these are now, respectively, 19 minutes and 20 minutes minimum interchange times - meaning that you have to wait 65 minutes at Ryde Pier Head, and a similar time at Portsmouth Harbour).

Strictly speaking, the SWR timetable is wrong. But I do agree that this is a very poor customer experience. All that money spent on "upgrading" the Island Line and repairing the pier was really just wasted.

The reality is that in most hours the times in the SWR timetable *do* work. It's possible to walk between ferry and train in a minute or so at both Pier Head and Harbour. As long as you're towards the front of the train or boat disembarkation queue it's perfectly feasible.

 

[paul1609]

The reality is that in most hours the times in the SWR timetable *do* work. It's possible to walk between ferry and train in a minute or so at both Pier Head and Harbour. As long as you're towards the front of the train or boat disembarkation queue it's perfectly feasible.

It is possible for a regular traveller with no luggage who knows where they are going. 10 mins is more realistic for the average iow holiday maker. I can reliably make a +20 min Euston Arrival/Victoria Departure but the timetable allows 40 mins.

 

[Snow1964]

There’s also one less platform at Portsmouth Harbour than there used to be, isn’t there? When I lived in Portsmouth in 1984 almost everything seemed to go all the way, a quick glance at a 1988 timetable confirms this. I’d be surprised if time came into it, but more trains and fewer platforms now presumably do.

There used to be 5 low level platforms and Portsmouth and Southsea, and many of the stoppers used to terminate there, as did the peak hour extras.

From memory it was around 1979 that more services went through to Harbour

I might be wrong, but I think the disused platform at Portsmouth Harbour is due to weak structure following WW2 bomb damage that was never fully fixed.

 

[DelW]

It is possible for a regular traveller with no luggage who knows where they are going. 10 mins is more realistic for the average iow holiday maker. I can reliably make a +20 min Euston Arrival/Victoria Departure but the timetable allows 40 mins.

Obviously people vary, but I think 10 minutes would be quite generous even if passengers were walking from the back of the mainland train, or were slow to disembark the boat.

The transfer to the ferry at both Harbour and Pier Head is much shorter and easier than getting to the tube at a London terminus. It's level, and can't be much more than 100m between the front of the train and the boat embarkation ramp.

In the other direction there is a gentle up ramp from the ferry towards the train, but the distance is even shorter, especially at Harbour, as it short-cuts the loop where the ferry boarding queue is held.

I honestly can't see how anyone could come up with the 19 or 20 minutes quoted above as the journey planner minimum times.

In London I regularly cross between Euston or KXSP and Waterloo, and I can usually do those in around 20-25 minutes if the tube is running normally. Someone slow on their feet or with luggage (or with tube delays) might be nearer the 40 minutes though. What does annoy me is the 75 minutes or so that's often in the itinerary when I have an advance ticket with compulsory counted-place reservations on SWR, meaning specified train only. The Waterloo Tap is often the beneficiary .

 

[paul1609]

There used to be 5 low level platforms and Portsmouth and Southsea, and many of the stoppers used to terminate there, as did the peak hour extras.

From memory it was around 1979 that more services went through to Harbour

I might be wrong, but I think the disused platform at Portsmouth Harbour is due to weak structure following WW2 bomb damage that was never fully fixed.

Platform 2 was taken out of use in the early 1990s.The whole pier underneath the station was at that time suffering from serious corrosion which threatened to close the station. I believe that the central support columns of the pier are under platform 2 itself and that the former platform 2 trackbed is a cover that can be easily lifted for future maintenance. Taking the former platform 2 out of use also spreads the load which should extend the life of the pier.

Obviously people vary, but I think 10 minutes would be quite generous even if passengers were walking from the back of the mainland train, or were slow to disembark the boat.

The transfer to the ferry at both Harbour and Pier Head is much shorter and easier than getting to the tube at a London terminus. It's level, and can't be much more than 100m between the front of the train and the boat embarkation ramp.

In the other direction there is a gentle up ramp from the ferry towards the train, but the distance is even shorter, especially at Harbour, as it short-cuts the loop where the ferry boarding queue is held.

I honestly can't see how anyone could come up with the 19 or 20 minutes quoted above as the journey planner minimum times.

In London I regularly cross between Euston or KXSP and Waterloo, and I can usually do those in around 20-25 minutes if the tube is running normally. Someone slow on their feet or with luggage (or with tube delays) might be nearer the 40 minutes though. What does annoy me is the 75 minutes or so that's often in the itinerary when I have an advance ticket with compulsory counted-place reservations on SWR, meaning specified train only. The Waterloo Tap is often the beneficiary .

It depends when youre passing through. Its not unusual for the Fast cat ferry queue to back up on to platform 1 in the station. When something like the Isle Of Wight festival is on you won't get on the first cat out after your train arrives but Hampshire Constabulary puts on events for travellers like drug searches to keep travellers amused.
The gradient of the ferry ramps depends on the state of the tide which varies at Portsmouth harbour by up to 5 metres, 4 times a day.
As a taxpayer I don't want to subsidise free travel to the IOW for rail users relying on a 1 min connection!

 

[DelW]

It depends when youre passing through. Its not unusual for the Fast cat ferry queue to back up on to platform 1 in the station. When something like the Isle Of Wight festival is on you won't get on the first cat out after your train arrives but Hampshire Constabulary puts on events for travellers like drug searches to keep travellers amused.

I'm usually travelling out on a Saturday morning, with at least one trip a year on a bank holiday weekend, and the only times I've seen queues back on to platform one were when the terminal was being rebuilt and there was a temporary scaffolding access, or when 2m distancing was in force.

I accept that there may well be other times when queues are an issue. But as long as there's space on the boat (so not festival weekend), once you've joined the queue you should be able to board.

As a taxpayer I don't want to subsidise free travel to the IOW for rail users relying on a 1 min connection!

Yes, that's a fair point, though I don't know whether delay repay is actually valid for journeys via Wightlink (or Hovertravel). But it ought to be possible to avoid that, without making intending passengers arrive at the pier and watch one ferry depart while they have to waste an hour waiting for the next one.

In about twenty years of making two or three trips a year, I can only remember one occasion of failing to make a 5 - 10 minute outbound connection, and that was when the SWT (as was) train was delayed for about 15 minutes at Havant Junction. Coming back is usually less critical as we often stop off for a beer in Ryde and/or Pompey.

 

[paul1609]

I'm usually travelling out on a Saturday morning, with at least one trip a year on a bank holiday weekend, and the only times I've seen queues back on to platform one were when the terminal was being rebuilt and there was a temporary scaffolding access, or when 2m distancing was in force.

I accept that there may well be other times when queues are an issue. But as long as there's space on the boat (so not festival weekend), once you've joined the queue you should be able to board.


Yes, that's a fair point, though I don't know whether delay repay is actually valid for journeys via Wightlink (or Hovertravel). But it ought to be possible to avoid that, without making intending passengers arrive at the pier and watch one ferry depart while they have to waste an hour waiting for the next one.

In about twenty years of making two or three trips a year, I can only remember one occasion of failing to make a 5 - 10 minute outbound connection, and that was when the SWT (as was) train was delayed for about 15 minutes at Havant Junction. Coming back is usually less critical as we often stop off for a beer in Ryde and/or Pompe

From the Wightlink website:

Portsmouth Harbour to Ryde Pier Head​

Monday, 4 September to Sunday, 17 December 2023
Foot passengers must book in advance and arrive at least 15 minutes before the scheduled sailing time. Please allow at least 10 minutes for connections between trains and FastCats.
* Vessel may depart earlier than scheduled

Sailing times, while correct at time of publication (April 2023), are subject to alteration.
For operating reasons ships may sail a little before or after sailing times.

The issue is that Portsmouth Harbour is becoming increasing busy with commercial and military traffic. A Fastcat missing its departure slot (which cuts right across the commercial shipping lanes) because of last minute connecting rail passengers may be held by the harbour master until the next available slot. In the case of one of the big Virgin Cruise liners or the Aircraft carriers that can be up to 40 minutes later which screws the timetable for the whole day.

Arrivals and departures

portsmouth-port.co.uk

 

[DelW]

From the Wightlink website:

Portsmouth Harbour to Ryde Pier Head​

Monday, 4 September to Sunday, 17 December 2023
Foot passengers must book in advance and arrive at least 15 minutes before the scheduled sailing time. Please allow at least 10 minutes for connections between trains and FastCats.
* Vessel may depart earlier than scheduled

Wightlink have been talking about arrival 15 minutes before sailing since Covid, but the reality is that on the ground it isn't enforced - there's just a ticket scan that's done either while you're in the queue, or when approaching the embarkation ramp. As long as you join the back of the queue before it reaches the boat, you should get on (space permitting). Not that I'd recommend cutting it that fine, of course, since if everyone is aboard and the queue has gone, the boat may leave early.

Looking at my records, I've been over twice this year, on 29th April and 9th September, both times travelling with walk-up off-peak (edit: having looked at the actual tickets, they were anytime not off-peak) through rail tickets so not timed for any particular sailing. In April the train's arrival at PMH was timetabled for 10:09 and in September for 10:02, and in both cases we caught the 10:15 sailing without any difficulty.

 

[paul1609]

Wightlink have been talking about arrival 15 minutes before sailing since Covid, but the reality is that on the ground it isn't enforced - there's just a ticket scan that's done either while you're in the queue, or when approaching the embarkation ramp. As long as you join the back of the queue before it reaches the boat, you should get on (space permitting). Not that I'd recommend cutting it that fine, of course, since if everyone is aboard and the queue has gone, the boat may leave early.

Looking at my records, I've been over twice this year, on 29th April and 9th September, both times travelling with walk-up off-peak through rail tickets so not timed for any particular sailing. In April the train's arrival at PMH was timetabled for 10:09 and in September for 10:02, and in both cases we caught the 10:15 sailing without any difficulty.

10.15 is very much Super Off Peak in terms of both Wightlink and Portsmouth Harbour the peak times are pre- 09.00 and 16.00 to about 19.00
the days of peak season holiday makers and day-trippers being the most important traffic are long since gone.

 

[DelW]

10.15 is very much Super Off Peak in terms of both Wightlink and Portsmouth Harbour the peak times are pre- 09.00 and 16.00 to about 19.00
the days of peak season holiday makers and day-trippers being the most important traffic are long since gone.

Well, maybe - though note that those dates are both Saturdays (and the earlier one a bank holiday weekend); SWR doesn't consider Saturday mornings to even be off-peak any more, let alone super off peak. Both those trips were made on anytime tickets.

But I've never travelled in the weekday peaks, so I accept that they could be much busier with commuter traffic.

 

[nw1]

Hi, following on from the thread about the 'Portsmouth direct line' I was wondering how services to the two stations were allocated? I.e. which terminate at P&S and which at the harbour? Is it a legacy from different train companies? Or is it based in where the train originates? Or is it something much more simple?. Thanks.

Generally the pattern has been that it's been (some) local stopping services that terminate at Southsea, to allow long-distance services to connect to the IoW ferry.

One example was the Portsmouth Direct pattern from 1978 to 1993 in which there were 3tph, one fast, one semi-fast and one stopper (all beyond Surbiton). The latter frequently terminated at Portsmouth and Southsea, at least at certain times of day.

(To add some detail here, at certain times of day, generally around the peaks, it was necessary for the stopper and semi-fast to interwork, as the semi-fast made extra stops and could not turn around in time to form the next up semi-fast. So at these times of day the stopper extended to Harbour while during midday and all day Saturdays it terminated at PSS).

From May 1986 for three years I believe that most stoppers worked to Harbour and many, at all times of day, interworked with semi-fasts, due to timing changes with the down services running a few minutes later. Result was more VEPs on semi-fasts and more CIGs on stoppers, IIRC (though really need to see CWNs to be absolutely sure).

With the 1989 'Greyhound' timetable, it went the other way and practically all the Waterloo stoppers turned round at PSS, and further timing changes, involving retardation of the up services, meant that only 5 diagrams were needed, rather than 6. Also the '82' semi-fasts could turn around at Harbour even with the extra stops, due to a later departure of the up service.

One exception was the xx40 super-fast of the late 90s, which was generally Waterloo-Portsmouth and Southsea. Presumably the rationale was that there was already one fast per hour to Harbour (xx00) and that extending the xx40 to Harbour caused platforming issues or prevented the service turning round in time to form the next service back.