Possibility of moving Fenchurch Street.

[jopsuk]

Have it run via Victoria instead of Vauxhall and Queenstown Road. Vauxhall is only so busy due to masses of people changing onto the Victoria line. Queenstown Road is not busy and can close - extend the Northern line Battersea extension to Clapham Junction to fix this. This will add the missing link between Victoria and Waterloo and relieve the Victoria line, the District and Circle Lines (Victoria to the City), the Northern line (people changing at Balham onto the Northern line to get to the City) and the Waterloo and City line.

ooh, good thinking. But I'd still be tempted to include a Battersea station. And maybe a Blackfriars one?

 

[BayPaul]

Actually if your scheme was done l would argue that the continued existence of the W&C would be questionable given that you have added serious mainline capacity between Waterloo and the City

Could the W&C line alignment be re-used - i.e. rebore a mainline diameter tunnel folloing the alignment of the W&C, and extend the platforms at Bank to be the replacement for Fenchurch Street. It sounds completely impossible to me, but no doubt it is actually considerably harder than that!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Could the W&C line alignment be re-used - i.e. rebore a mainline diameter tunnel folloing the alignment of the W&C, and extend the platforms at Bank to be the replacement for Fenchurch Street. It sounds completely impossible to me, but no doubt it is actually considerably harder than that!

The City line approaches Bank from the wrong side, though - everything else would be in the way.

If money were no object, what I would do would be to double deck Fenchurch Street - a new second level above the existing platforms ( just remove the lower floor of the office above it and convert that to a station ), have the second deck pretty much match the existing station as far as the crossovers in the throat and then have the tracks on a shallow gradient down towards Limehouse - there's just about enough room to have a sort of zig zag to allow the required junction without having to move the DLR over.

 

[357 LTSRail]

The City line approaches Bank from the wrong side, though - everything else would be in the way.

If money were no object, what I would do would be to double deck Fenchurch Street - a new second level above the existing platforms ( just remove the lower floor of the office above it and convert that to a station ), have the second deck pretty much match the existing station as far as the crossovers in the throat and then have the tracks on a shallow gradient down towards Limehouse - there's just about enough room to have a sort of zig zag to allow the required junction without having to move the DLR over.

I think if money were truly no object, I'd like to buy the office blocks that surround the station and its viaduct and make it a proper 6-8 platform terminus at the same level and site!

In all seriousness, I do think that the moving plans are somewhat credible if they can provide the expansion and a tube interchange, whilst not requiring much land acquisition and only really be at the expense of a lesser used part of the DLR. The listed façade of the existing station may be a headache and I would be sad to see it go though, and the current site is in a prime location for commuters. Also as commuter and not a rail enthusiast, I've always preferred Fenchurch Street to Liverpool Street simply because it's so much smaller, easier to navigate and is inherently quieter and less frantic (even in peak) so losing these qualities would be a shame for me.
A Crossrail style project I can't see happening due to the costs and the political/pr disaster that the current Crossrail project is enduring. I'm also sceptical that the concept of joining railways is what passengers want - c2c passengers are already very sensitive to dips in punctuality so I'm not sure they'd like the associated problems with linking multiple lines together. They also seem very averted to anything other than 3+2 train interior layouts so rolling stock for such a project like a 345 of 700 probably wouldn't go down all too well!

I wonder if the idea of building one or two terminating platforms at West Ham would reduce demand for using Fenchurch Street and be able to limit growth on the passenger numbers we had pre-covid? And will there even be much growth in the job market in the square mile?

 

[si404]

The issue is not so much the platform capacity for trains, but platform capacity for people.

Most notably the narrow platforms next to the narrow stairs down to the Cooper's Row entrance. There's a queue to get to the stairs, which then creates a bottleneck on the platforms and risks people ending up on the tracks.

Obviously, if rebuilding the station further east it makes sense to have the possibility of more platforms.

is there something to be said for linking it with the Cannon Street services?

If physically possible to get down in the space currently occupied by Cannon Street station, fit a double-ending station in somewhere in between (preferably with some form of interchange with the District line), and then climb up onto the viaduct near Tower Gateway, then this far from a bad idea. Cannon Street is constrained more than Fenchurch Street by the terminal capacity, though this idea would probably mean segregating the CS network from the others (if not totally, then more than now).

It's the two stations with the highest percentages of walking onward travel (CS:80%, FS:58%), so tube interchange/Z1 penetration is not that important (CS:9%, FS:24%). And reverse-peak flows are likewise the lowest (CS:>1%, FS:2% in the am and CS:3%, FS: 6% in the pm), and would remain such - which would help with passenger flow - it's nearly all one-way (which will greatly help, though maybe it would have to be enforced and about 700 people will be annoyed in the morning, 1500 in the evening).

There's 2 problems though:

• 50,000 people will arrive in the am peak. I guess some Essex passengers might stay on to London Bridge, but that's it really. Paddington is going to be the busiest new-build underground Elizabeth line station with 174k/day (TCR 170k, Bond St 137k, Liverpool St 124k, Whitechapel 94k, Farringdon 82k, Canary Wharf 68k, Woolwich 56k), but it's not going to be as peaky. Maybe Paddington will end up dealing with 50k in the am peak, but with Fenchurch/Cannon Street seeing about half that in just the busiest hour, that's a lot of people on a 2-platform modern island.
• With that number of people leaving the trains, dwell time is going to hinder frequency - the busiest hour being 11,500 leaving c2c trains, 15,000 leaving Southeastern. Then again, we're looking at that being about 500 per train in about 60 seconds (looking at ~30tph), with (mostly) one-way flow, and metro-style trains. It might work.

(all figures 2011)

 

[BayPaul]

It is. It’s essentially full now with Crossrail and the Bank ticket hall extensions.

The very best of luck goes to anyone looking to find spare land underground in the city that’s nearly straight and nearly level, 300m long and around 50m wide, with clear ground from either end to the surface for escalators, lifts, and emergency access, and land at ground level where these emerge that can be used as building compounds and most importantly entrance halls for passengers. And it needs to be aligned with the running tunnel, and that running tunnel also needs to be heading in the rough direction of the next station each way, which similarly must be aligned as well. And hopefully there’s not a river or some foundations or deep basements or poor geology or non-railway tunnels (there’s lots of those) in the way.

OK, a very very out of the box thought - has any thought ever been given to an underwater station. Either in the Thames, and built using a large caisson, or perhaps under St Katherines Dock, which could presumably be temporarily drained, an underwater station built, and then filled again.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Could Crossrail be extended from Abbey Wood to Rainham and thus round to Grays/Tilbury?

OK, a very very out of the box thought - has any thought ever been given to an underwater station. Either in the Thames, and built using a large caisson, or perhaps under St Katherines Dock, which could presumably be temporarily drained, an underwater station built, and then filled again.

Yes, there was once a plan for a Crossrail under the Thames. I think they found the stations were too far from any great mass of people.

 

[BayPaul]

Yes, there was once a plan for a Crossrail under the Thames. I think they found the stations were too far from any great mass of people.

Just to get through the city centre that presumably wouldn't be a major issue - a station near Tower Pier would be very well located, as would something near Charing Cross.

 

[Wolfie]

Just to get through the city centre that presumably wouldn't be a major issue - a station near Tower Pier would be very well located, as would something near Charing Cross.

The Northern, Bakerloo and possibly Jubilee lines might be an issue in the Charing Cross area...

 

[cle]

The platforms/long distance thing is not an issue with Fenchurch, as these are the only services. It would be about footprint and land take.

The only other idea might be if it became an overspill for Liverpool Street, as it can access those lines. But the southern set, ie. Crossrail and with no separation. A best-use might be if it could reach the West Anglia lines into Stratford. But just to add peak platforms - I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile or even doable with paths. Solution looking for a problem.

To the Tring sceptics, I agree Windsor is more rounded (bi-directional flows, less peak-y, Heathrow potential, high weekend/leisure use) - whereas the WCML has nowhere you'd visit especially - but the DC suggestion did assume removing the Bakerloo from north of Queens Park or Willesden Jn/Stonebridge for depot. Beyond there, a higher frequency local service could run up to Watford Junction. This was/is planned to be 4tph. Bakerloo from QP could comfortably go to OOC, North Acton, West Acton and Ealing Broadway. What to do with the Central, Picc and District towards the Ruislips and Uxbridge is up for debate.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, a very very out of the box thought - has any thought ever been given to an underwater station. Either in the Thames, and built using a large caisson, or perhaps under St Katherines Dock, which could presumably be temporarily drained, an underwater station built, and then filled again.

There’s two big sewers all along the river...

 

[Wolfie]

There’s two big sewers all along the river...

Do you mean the Thames Water 'super sewer' currently under construction? Or some of the Bazelgette built system?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you mean the Thames Water 'super sewer' currently under construction? Or some of the Bazelgette built system?

Both!

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the W&C line alignment be re-used - i.e. rebore a mainline diameter tunnel folloing the alignment of the W&C, and extend the platforms at Bank to be the replacement for Fenchurch Street. It sounds completely impossible to me, but no doubt it is actually considerably harder than that!

The Waterloo and City line orientation at Waterloo is along the line of the concourse. It’s aimed almost exactly to the South East, and AIUI from earlier discussions is absolutely wrong for any logical extension towards the west.

Likewise the vertical and horizontal curvature at Blackfriars prevents any possibility of a platform to meet current level standards, especially if using full length trains.

And I think @Peter Mugridge has already written off Bank...

 

[Wolfie]

Both!

Ok, a clear concise answer, thanks.

 

[popeter45]

if going with a fenchurch-euston crossrail idea i would also suggest a spur from a low level fenchurch street to moorgate and make that part of it, would make the inner city connection that was the original plan for the moorgate branch

 

[BayPaul]

if going with a fenchurch-euston crossrail idea i would also suggest a spur from a low level fenchurch street to moorgate and make that part of it, would make the inner city connection that was the original plan for the moorgate branch

But train lengths don't match - 12 cars for Fenchurch Street, 5 for Morgate

 

[popeter45]

But train lengths don't match - 12 cars for Fenchurch Street, 5 for Morgate

if moorgate platforms could be extended to 6 cars or enough for SDO could run 6 cars on Moorgate routes and 2x6 cars on Euston routes

 

[YorksLad12]

The City line approaches Bank from the wrong side, though - everything else would be in the way.

Question from someone who isn't local. Looking at Google Maps (sorry), the W&C comes in from the south-west, pointing north-east. Fenchurch Street terminates pointing north-west but is some way away. Assuming you could get the line underground at FS (east of Minories?) could you not tunnel around up to Lloyds/Leadenhall Street, underneath Cornhill to meet the W&C? I'm not saying one should, I'm just trying to get a handle on the underground geography.

 

[BayPaul]

if moorgate platforms could be extended to 6 cars or enough for SDO could run 6 cars on Moorgate routes and 2x6 cars on Euston routes

Splitting and joining in a crossrail type situation just isn't going to work though, and running 6 cars out on C2C would remove the entire point of the exercise, to increase capacity out of Fenchurch street

 

[mr_jrt]

As I understand it, the W&C and Central Line are roughly at the same level, and both originally terminated at Bank. The Central obviously got the extension to Liverpool Street, and that's the problem, as they would cross on the level, so you'd have to burrow down for the W&C to get past it.

Pulling out the crayons (and yes, I'm not serious), now you have Crossrail linking TCR to Liverpool Street, so send the Central line down under the Bank complex and off towards Fenchurch Street and beyond, and hook the W&C up to the eastern end of the Central line at Bank (which gets rid of that awful curvature!)...but it's somewhat unlikely!

 

[Wolfie]

As I understand it, the W&C and Central Line are roughly at the same level, and both originally terminated at Bank. The Central obviously got the extension to Liverpool Street, and that's the problem, as they would cross on the level, so you'd have to burrow down for the W&C to get past it.

Pulling out the crayons (and yes, I'm not serious), now you have Crossrail linking TCR to Liverpool Street, so send the Central line down under the Bank complex and off towards Fenchurch Street and beyond, and hook the W&C up to the eastern end of the Central line at Bank (which gets rid of that awful curvature!)...but it's somewhat unlikely!

That would be a very, very long new Central line.... lol...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Question from someone who isn't local. Looking at Google Maps (sorry), the W&C comes in from the south-west, pointing north-east. Fenchurch Street terminates pointing north-west but is some way away. Assuming you could get the line underground at FS (east of Minories?) could you not tunnel around up to Lloyds/Leadenhall Street, underneath Cornhill to meet the W&C? I'm not saying one should, I'm just trying to get a handle on the underground geography.

Try having a look at the Carte Metro map and it will become clearer; you can zoom in on it:

Detailled London transport map (track, depot, ...)

cartometro.com

But train lengths don't match - 12 cars for Fenchurch Street, 5 for Morgate

if Moorgate platforms could be extended to 6 cars or enough for SDO could run 6 cars on Moorgate routes and 2x6 cars on Euston routes

Err.... Moorgate and the rest of the Northern City Line already is 6 cars isn't it?

 

[Ianno87]

But train lengths don't match - 12 cars for Fenchurch Street, 5 for Morgate

if moorgate platforms could be extended to 6 cars or enough for SDO could run 6 cars on Moorgate routes and 2x6 cars on Euston routes

1) Moorgate is 6 cars already

2) The Crossrail station (Liverpool St Western end) is now physically in the way of any direct southward extension at Moorgate.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Northern, Bakerloo and possibly Jubilee lines might be an issue in the Charing Cross area...

There is also a flooded tube tunnel , the closed loop line which was a Kennington type arrangement ,to get trains north , before the Northern line was extended southwards to Kennington (!) and towards Morden.

This bit of tunnel was out of use from the mid 1920's , and sealed off , subsequently flooded.

 

[stuu]

Have it run via Victoria instead of Vauxhall and Queenstown Road. Vauxhall is only so busy due to masses of people changing onto the Victoria line. Queenstown Road is not busy and can close - extend the Northern line Battersea extension to Clapham Junction to fix this. This will add the missing link between Victoria and Waterloo and relieve the Victoria line, the District and Circle Lines (Victoria to the City), the Northern line (people changing at Balham onto the Northern line to get to the City) and the Waterloo and City line.

As this is all notional money and engineering, going via Victoria and including cross-platform links with CR2 could be very useful

 

[BrianW]

So much opportunity for dreaming with crayons in hand ...
I dare say there will be many consultants offering to undertake a whole panoply of 'option appraisals' too.
My own 'outside the boxes':
- Relocate Fenchurch Street facade to new Euston
- Diesels to go from Chiltern Line so *obviously* a target for Southenders
- It used to be possible to go Ealing to Southend, so is there something to 'revive' there? Maybe Crossrail will sort of substitute for that!!
From a kid in the 1950s I never understood why anyone would travel from classy Chelsea to 'ackney; nor Acton to 'ampstead ...
Just waiting for every madhat speculation to be shot down by some cold-water-pouring realist, obvs ...

 

[Wolfie]

There is also a flooded tube tunnel , the closed loop line which was a Kennington type arrangement ,to get trains north , before the Northern line was extended southwards to Kennington (!) and towards Morden.

This bit of tunnel was out of use from the mid 1920's , and sealed off , subsequently flooded.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[edwin_m]

- Relocate Fenchurch Street facade to new Euston

But then you'd have to re-build the Euston Arch at Fenchurch Street.

 

[BrianW]

But then you'd have to re-build the Euston Arch at Fenchurch Street.

Has it all been found in the River Lea now? I imagine its restoration to anywhere would need financing, maybe by donations- hard to see hard-pressed public sector funding; whereas ... relocation of Fenchurch Street frontage in order to facilitate service improvement might be seen as appropriate and supportable?