Possible LNER expansion.

[YorkRailFan]

I doubt LNER would ever want to run Sunderland to Kings Cross direct via the Durham coast, because that would remove equivalent capacity from Newcastle to the south via Durham and Darlington.

That's an issue for LNER, continue via Newcastle, which takes longer than GC's service, or run via Durham Coast which is quicker but removes capacity to Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. GC found a way to penitrate LNER and that niche is working for them, I just wish they had better trains and reliability.

 

[Falcon1200]

I do think that there is scope for improvement on the Newcastle-Edinburgh-Motherwell-Glasgow corridor,

I agree; LNER's final, total, abandonment of Glasgow is very disappointing, especially given that when they reduced their service to one train a day each way, Cross Country instead ran a two-hourly service to and from Glasgow instead. Most of those trains disappeared with Covid and three years on are yet to return! The paucity of direct services between Glasgow and anywhere other than London is IMHO astonishing.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I agree; LNER's final, total, abandonment of Glasgow is very disappointing, especially given that when they reduced their service to one train a day each way, Cross Country instead ran a two-hourly service to and from Glasgow instead. Most of those trains disappeared with Covid and three years on are yet to return! The paucity of direct services between Glasgow and anywhere other than London is IMHO astonishing.

A lot of XC services are yet to return, most notably an hourly Newcastle-Reading (which ran a couple times a day to Southampton and once daily to Guildford), hourly Birmingham-Stansted Airport and as you said a service every two hours to Glasgow.

 

[A S Leib]

Also, there is demand for a London-Sunderland service, just look at GC, just not at the time that the LNER service leaves KGX.

How much of it is demand to / from Sunderland and how much is people using Eaglescliffe as a Middlesbrough Parkway or as a London – York – North East cheap alternative? If you're travelling last minute, £45.30 for an anytime first return (GC only) from Sunderland to York looks quite attractive compared to the £47.30 the off-peak day return costs, providing you just need to be in York early on a weekday and don't mind possibly waiting a few hours coming back.

A lot of XC services are yet to return, most notably an hourly Newcastle-Reading (which ran a couple times a day to Southampton and once daily to Guildford), hourly Birmingham-Stansted Airport and as you said a service every two hours to Glasgow.

According to RTT from next month NCL–RDG will just be four a day (plus one York–Doncaster–Birmingham), BHM–Stansted will be nine a day (with Stansted Express services going back to four per hour, so there clearly is rail demand there) and Manchester to Bristol, which I think was meant to - did go - go to Manchester to Bristol pre-pandemic just has two a day south of Bristol and the last arrival at Bristol at 20:08 (leaving 17:03) when last arrivals are 23:30 from Edinburgh, 22:50 from Portsmouth, 21:51 from Plymouth and 01:13 from Paddington.

 

[800001]

I agree; LNER's final, total, abandonment of Glasgow is very disappointing, especially given that when they reduced their service to one train a day each way, Cross Country instead ran a two-hourly service to and from Glasgow instead. Most of those trains disappeared with Covid and three years on are yet to return! The paucity of direct services between Glasgow and anywhere other than London is IMHO astonishing.

It’s not LNER pulling out of Glasgow, it’s the dft instructing them, the unit that goes to Glasgow can be utilised better.
Likewise the unit that does the morning Stirling is planned to do an earlier service than the current 0540, the unit that would of worked Glasgow slots into path of the old Stirling from Edinburgh, better utilisation of units gives more capacity on the core Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

As other people have mentioned it’s quicker doing Queen street to Edinburgh via Scotrail, and changing for London.

 

[YorkRailFan]

According to RTT from next month NCL–RDG will just be four a day (plus one York–Doncaster–Birmingham), BHM–Stansted will be nine a day (with Stansted Express services going back to four per hour, so there clearly is rail demand there) and Manchester to Bristol, which I think was meant to - did go - go to Manchester to Bristol pre-pandemic just has two a day south of Bristol and the last arrival at Bristol at 20:08 (leaving 17:03) when last arrivals are 23:30 from Edinburgh, 22:50 from Portsmouth, 21:51 from Plymouth and 01:13 from Paddington.

The issue for XC is rolling stock, they just don't have enough to provide their current timetable, let alone all of these services.

How much of it is demand to / from Sunderland and how much is people using Eaglescliffe as a Middlesbrough Parkway or as a London – York – North East cheap alternative? If you're travelling last minute, £45.30 for an anytime first return (GC only) from Sunderland to York looks quite attractive compared to the £47.30 the off-peak day return costs, providing you just need to be in York early on a weekday and don't mind possibly waiting a few hours coming back.

Quite a lot of people come from Sunderland and Hartlepool down to London, York is also a popular destination to/from London with GC. I have personally never gone with GC North of York and I don't think many people board GC services at York going northbound as most people use other TOCs, apart from when there is a football match at Sunderland or Hartlepool. The first GC service on a weekday to take you from York to Sunderland is around 10:30, meaning you would have to wait around two hours in York, which is a good amount of time to do what you need to do in York, as you would arrive at 8:22.

As other people have mentioned it’s quicker doing Queen street to Edinburgh via Scotrail, and changing for London.

A very common move for people in York is to do exactly that, but people are annoyed that we don't have a frequent Glasgow service even though the change at Waverley isn't bad.

 

[800001]

The issue for XC is rolling stock, they just don't have enough to provide their current timetable, let alone all of these services.


Quite a lot of people come from Sunderland and Hartlepool down to London, York is also a popular destination to/from London with GC. I have personally never gone with GC North of York and I don't think many people board GC services at York going northbound as most people use other TOCs, apart from when there is a football match at Sunderland or Hartlepool. The first GC service on a weekday to take you from York to Sunderland is around 10:30, meaning you would have to wait around two hours in York, which is a good amount of time to do what you need to do in York, as you would arrive at 8:22.

You’d be surprised how many board north bound GC’s at York, a fairly healthy crowd.

The issue for XC is rolling stock, they just don't have enough to provide their current timetable, let alone all of these services.


Quite a lot of people come from Sunderland and Hartlepool down to London, York is also a popular destination to/from London with GC. I have personally never gone with GC North of York and I don't think many people board GC services at York going northbound as most people use other TOCs, apart from when there is a football match at Sunderland or Hartlepool. The first GC service on a weekday to take you from York to Sunderland is around 10:30, meaning you would have to wait around two hours in York, which is a good amount of time to do what you need to do in York, as you would arrive at 8:22.


A very common move for people in York is to do exactly that, but people are annoyed that we don't have a frequent Glasgow service even though the change at Waverley isn't bad.

It’s all about maximisation of sets.
A set going to from Glasgow, wastes an hour there, layover, an hour back to Edinburgh, that set could be south of York by then earning more money.

And that’s all dft will look at, not passenger convenience.

 

[rg177]

Hardly surprised that Sunderland is getting binned off. The evening service is a regularly casualty for getting terminated at Newcastle when anything goes wrong or there's a set swap.

 

[800001]

Hardly surprised that Sunderland is getting binned off. The evening service is a regularly casualty for getting terminated at Newcastle when anything goes wrong or there's a set swap.

Anything over 20 late and it can’t go to Sunderland, as northern staff finish and close station.

 

[YorkRailFan]

You’d be surprised how many board north bound GC’s at York, a fairly healthy crowd.

Especially when there is a football match at Hartlepool or Sunderland, but that is where most passengers are bound for, I doubt a lot of passenger do York-Eaglescliffe and passengers traveling to Northallerton likely travel with TPE (who provide 2tph, I believe) and LNER (who provides one train every two hours) and with Thirsk passengers traveling with TPE (who provide 1tph.)

It’s all about maximisation of sets.
A set going to from Glasgow, wastes an hour there, layover, an hour back to Edinburgh, that set could be south of York by then earning more money.

And that’s all dft will look at, not passenger coconvenience.

It's a sad reality, shame someone like TPE can't provide a Sheffield-Glasgow service, or even LNER if they were to get a whole bunch of new stock.

 

[rg177]

Anything over 20 late and it can’t go to Sunderland, as northern staff finish and close station.

Yes of course - as the arrival is something like 23:25.

It was certainly a valid experiment when first introduced as a bit of a prod at Grand Central - but suffice to say that the timings aren't awfully attractive (coupled with the lack of resilience in the evening as you say due to the closure of Sunderland).

Another instance (as with Stirling) where you could probably do something more productive in the morning with the staff/set seeing it's off out of Heaton at 04:46 (and you could easily remove the need for an 800). Dare I say even Morpeth would probably generate a few passengers (if you can shunt it accordingly).

 

[Falcon1200]

As other people have mentioned it’s quicker doing Queen street to Edinburgh via Scotrail, and changing for London.

Although any time saved on the journey between Glasgow and Edinburgh is surely exceeded by having to leave sufficient connectional time at Waverley!

A set going to from Glasgow, wastes an hour there, layover, an hour back to Edinburgh, that set could be south of York by then earning more money.

The current Glasgow Up train forms the 0800 from Edinburgh, a set will still have to be provided for that and cannot do much if any work work earlier? And similarly with the evening Down service, which could only really form a short working back from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh. But I do agree that during the day it is far more difficult to justify the extensions to Glasgow, given the loadings. It is just galling that the supposed replacement XC trains have, mostly, gone as well, leaving a minimal through service between Glasgow, and Newcastle and York.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Dare I say even Morpeth would probably generate a few passengers (if you can shunt it accordingly).

Morpeth clearly has demand for Lumo to serve it.

 

[800001]

Although any time saved on the journey between Glasgow and Edinburgh is surely exceeded by having to leave sufficient connectional time at Waverley!



The current Glasgow Up train forms the 0800 from Edinburgh, a set will still have to be provided for that and cannot do much if any work work earlier? And similarly with the evening Down service, which could only really form a short working back from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh. But I do agree that during the day it is far more difficult to justify the extensions to Glasgow, given the loadings. It is just galling that the supposed replacement XC trains have, mostly, gone as well, leaving a minimal through service between Glasgow, and Newcastle and York.

pulling out of Glasgow also saves crew, as it’s labour intensive.

Eg for the London to Glasgow, an Edinburgh driver books on to take it Edinburgh to Glasgow, takes it to Polmadie, then once unit is serviced driver taxis back to Edinburgh at 4am and finishes there shift.
This shift can be moved to somewhere else, where the shift will be more productive.

 

[A S Leib]

Morpeth clearly has demand for Lumo to serve it.

Would Lumo have been allowed to serve Alnmouth, Berwick or Dunbar if they'd applied to do so?

 

[JonathanH]

It is interesting that the change in marginal use of units is changing from a view that use of rolling stock should be maximised to a view that the additional traincrew requirement is not worth it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes of course - as the arrival is something like 23:25.

It was certainly a valid experiment when first introduced as a bit of a prod at Grand Central - but suffice to say that the timings aren't awfully attractive (coupled with the lack of resilience in the evening as you say due to the closure of Sunderland).

Another instance (as with Stirling) where you could probably do something more productive in the morning with the staff/set seeing it's off out of Heaton at 04:46 (and you could easily remove the need for an 800). Dare I say even Morpeth would probably generate a few passengers (if you can shunt it accordingly).

Run it empty to Morpeth via Bedlington for route learning and to avoid reversal. Or call somewhere with a big carpark, such as Newsham.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Would Lumo have been allowed to serve Alnmouth, Berwick or Dunbar if they'd applied to do so?

Berwick could have been a good option to compete with LNER on Berwick-London services, Alnmouth could as well. But I think that Lumo wants to operate fast, limited stop services between London and Edinburgh, meaning that they would stop at Berwick, if they have applied to and had dropped Morpeth or Stevenage. But we're getting off topic.

 

[WAB]

It is interesting that the change in marginal use of units is changing from a view that use of rolling stock should be maximised to a view that the additional traincrew requirement is not worth it.

A lot of the historic beyond-Edinburgh marginal time extensions have their origins in BR days, don't they? Therefore, the crew diagrams would have been more productive in the past as no need to be taxiing to distant depots. Lots of things on the railway are carried by inertia, but once they started lopping back the Glasgow extensions, it seems that everyone realised that you could get away with it without anything terrible happening.

 

[60159]

Especially when there is a football match at Hartlepool or Sunderland, but that is where most passengers are bound for, I doubt a lot of passenger do York-Eaglescliffe and passengers traveling to Northallerton likely travel with TPE (who provide 2tph, I believe) and LNER (who provides one train every two hours) and with Thirsk passengers traveling with TPE (who provide 1tph.)


It's a sad reality, shame someone like TPE can't provide a Sheffield-Glasgow service, or even LNER if they were to get a whole bunch of new stock.

It won’t happen because its too late.
All 56 805/7/10s should have been bimode and given to XC to make it a proper express service with a train every hour from Glasgow and Edinburgh joining up at Carlisle and then alternatively to Bristol etc or Reading etc. Huge distances under the wires, huge increase in connectivity and Ed-Birm nearly an hour quicker via west coast bringing huge time savings for journeys south of Birm.
No need for Scottish London west coast services via Birm freeing up Pendilinos to do Man/Liv to Scotland.
TPE limited to Man/Liv to Hull, Cleethorpes, Scarborough Middlesborough and Newcastle with possible Durham coast trains.
XC nothing north of Newcastle.
So LNER get their 10 new units and the similar class 397s for the suggested Sheffield/Edinburgh/Glasgow service. including the stoppers albeit the rest of York Sheffield would need electrified but that should be a priority and not a huge distance and Scotrail/LNER control all east coast north of Newcastle with
Avanti, TPE, XC and LNER all simplified.
Apologies for being off topic but best way to use LNER and still could be a future aspiration.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Huge distances under the wires, huge increase in connectivity and Ed-Birm nearly an hour quicker via west coast bringing huge time savings for journeys south of Birm.
No need for Scottish London west coast services via Birm freeing up Pendilinos to do Man/Liv to Scotland.

I think that Avanti should continue to operate Glagow to London and Edinburgh to Birmingham, via the West Coast. But yes, we are getting off topic.

 

[92002]

pulling out of Glasgow also saves crew, as it’s labour intensive.

Eg for the London to Glasgow, an Edinburgh driver books on to take it Edinburgh to Glasgow, takes it to Polmadie, then once unit is serviced driver taxis back to Edinburgh at 4am and finishes there shift.
This shift can be moved to somewhere else, where the shift will be more productive.

However there are a few Newcastle to Edinburgh turns that could be extended to Glasgow, using the same crew. Then take their break there and return back to Newcastle and on to Kings Cross. That would remove the need for taxis for crew. Invariably it's the driver who is taxied. Glasgow has Train Managers and Service crew, who would need to be relocated.

Doubtful it has been thought through.

The Stirling train is slightly different since it is crewed by Edinburgh Crews. Although could easily be crewed by a new Crew located at Stirling. With the set staying there overnight, avoiding empty running. Train servicing is more difficult since it would need to be covered by ScotRail. Like the Glasgow overnight stay is done by Avanti.

All that assumes there are sufficient passenger numbers attracted.

 

[800001]

However there are a few Newcastle to Edinburgh turns that could be extended to Glasgow, using the same crew. Then take their break there and return back to Newcastle and on to Kings Cross. That would remove the need for taxis for crew. Invariably it's the driver who is taxied. Glasgow has Train Managers and Service crew, who would need to be relocated.

Doubtful it has been thought through.

The Stirling train is slightly different since it is crewed by Edinburgh Crews. Although could easily be crewed by a new Crew located at Stirling. With the set staying there overnight, avoiding empty running. Train servicing is more difficult since it would need to be covered by ScotRail. Like the Glasgow overnight stay is done by Avanti.

All that assumes there are sufficient passenger numbers attracted.

LNER do not have train managers or service crew based at Glasgow, they taxi/train to from Edinburgh each morning and night.

Also very assumptive of you to say it’s not been thought of.

As for using Newcastle crew to work to/from Glasgow on LNER, that is still very wasteful in resource, by time they go Edinburgh to Glasgow and back, the train and crew can be near York on the core route earning more money ghat going to Glasgow.

And what a waste creating a crew at Stirling for one train, which most mornings runs with less than 10 customers from Stirling (admittedly a very silly early departure).

 

[cle]

Glasgow should ideally have a ECML service - even if it isn't the quickest way to do it. So, from Central. That is logically either XC or TPE if we want it to reach York or even Leeds, rather than just Newcastle. I think Sheffield isn't super essential as an individual flow, and south of there should be WCML territory.

If it's just Newcastle, a more regional pattern option makes sense - which could mop up a stopping service along the Northumberland Coast line.

 

[92002]

LNER do not have train managers or service crew based at Glasgow, they taxi/train to from Edinburgh each morning and night.

Also very assumptive of you to say it’s not been thought of.

As for using Newcastle crew to work to/from Glasgow on LNER, that is still very wasteful in resource, by time they go Edinburgh to Glasgow and back, the train and crew can be near York on the core route earning more money ghat going to Glasgow.

And what a waste creating a crew at Stirling for one train, which most mornings runs with less than 10 customers from Stirling (admittedly a very silly early departure).

Funny you should say that, I personally know most of the Glasgow based crews. They man the 0648 from Glasgow and return with an Edinburgh arrival. Then travel back to Glasgow by ScotRail. Similarly they travel to Edinburgh then Newcastle and return with the Glasgow arrival in the evening.

 

[800001]

Funny you should say that, I personally know most of the Glasgow based crews. They man the 0648 from Glasgow and return with an Edinburgh arrival. Then travel back to Glasgow by ScotRail. Similarly they travel to Edinburgh then Newcastle and return with the Glasgow arrival in the evening.

But they are not Glasgow based! They are based at Edinburgh Waverley, they may live in Glasgow but they are based in Edinburgh from an operational point of view, it is irrelevant where they live.

So they start at Edinburgh and travel taxi to Glasgow for 1E06 that’s what the company plans, that’s what the company books.
If they live in Glasgow so be it, but from an operational point of view they are not based in Glasgow!

Likewise for 1S23, driver is taxied back to Edinburgh where there diagrams finishes after they have serviced unit at Polmadie, the Train Manager is booked pass in Scotrail back to Edinburgh.

 

[92002]

But they are not Glasgow based! They are based at Edinburgh Waverley, they may live in Glasgow but they are based in Edinburgh from an operational point of view, it is irrelevant where they live.

So they start at Edinburgh and travel taxi to Glasgow for 1E06 that’s what the company plans, that’s what the company books.
If they live in Glasgow so be it, but from an operational point of view they are not based in Glasgow!

Likewise for 1S23, driver is taxied back to Edinburgh where there diagrams finishes after they have serviced unit at Polmadie, the Train Manager is booked pass in Scotrail back to Edinburgh.

Eh no. They are Glasgow based staff that work the Glasgow services and sometimes return on an Edinburgh terminating train. The only staff who travel by taxi are the driver for the Glasgow services. There are no Glasgow based drivers. They are Edinburgh based and travel back to Edinburgh by taxi after arriving at night. They also travel to Glasgow by taxi to drive the morning train. Whilst not very good use of a driver's time that is how the trains are manned and worked. It would therefore make a lot more sense to have Glasgow based drivers too.

 

[800001]

Eh no. They are Glasgow based staff that work the Glasgow services and sometimes return on an Edinburgh terminating train. The only staff who travel by taxi are the driver for the Glasgow services. There are no Glasgow based drivers. They are Edinburgh based and travel back to Edinburgh by taxi after arriving at night. They also travel to Glasgow by taxi to drive the morning train. Whilst not very good use of a driver's time that is how the trains are manned and worked. It would therefore make a lot more sense to have Glasgow based drivers too.

You are completely mistaken.
LNER do not, and trust me I know, do not have any Glasgow based crews. They are based at Edinburgh.
If there are ‘Glasgow based’ crew as you say, you’d better let LNER know as to there knowledge they don’t have a crew base at Glasgow!

Morning drivers taxis Edinburgh to Polmadie, works 1E06 to Newcastle, then 1S06 back to Edinburgh where there shift is finished

Evening driver works 1S23 Edinburgh to Glasgow, takes set to Polmadie, shunts then taxi back to Edinburgh where they finish.

Morning train manager taxis from Edinburgh to Glasgow, works 1E06 to Newcastle, then 1S06 back and finishes at Edinburgh.

Evening train manager works 1E23 Edinburgh to Newcastle, 1S23 to Glasgow then passes back in 1R38 Scotrail back to Edinburgh.

 

[92002]

You are completely mistaken.
LNER do not, and trust me I know, do not have any Glasgow based crews. They are based at Edinburgh.
If there are ‘Glasgow based’ crew as you say, you’d better let LNER know as to there knowledge they don’t have a crew base at Glasgow!

Morning drivers taxis Edinburgh to Polmadie, works 1E06 to Newcastle, then 1S06 back to Edinburgh where there shift is finished

Evening driver works 1S23 Edinburgh to Glasgow, takes set to Polmadie, shunts then taxi back to Edinburgh where they finish.

Morning train manager taxis from Edinburgh to Glasgow, works 1E06 to Newcastle, then 1S06 back and finishes at Edinburgh.

Evening train manager works 1E23 Edinburgh to Newcastle, 1S23 to Glasgow then passes back in 1R38 Scotrail back to Edinburgh.

Guess the next time I run across the Glasgow based crew will ask then where they are based. They are paid from and to Glasgow however. Even in the closure time of Carstairs they travelled by ScotRail to and from Edinburgh to start the train. However they again start from Glasgow now again

 

[800001]

Guess the next time I run across the Glasgow based crew will ask then where they are based. They are paid from and to Glasgow however. Even in the closure time of Carstairs they travelled by ScotRail to and from Edinburgh to start the train. However they again start from Glasgow now again

You ask them! Just because they live in Glasgow does not make them LNER Glasgow based crew.

They are LNER Edinburgh based crew who live in Glasgow.