Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[Peter Sarf]

As a genuine don’t know question - have there ever been any instances where diesel stock such as the 68 had some form of electrical connection to be fitted (ideally automatic, such as some locating connection which connects / disconnects at zero speed under the loco - with the purpose of providing shore supply for the train services in platform, allowing the engines to run up and take over in the moments before departure ?

Ignoring the noise for a moment, it seems strange that this hasn’t been pursued (doubtless in some simpler and more obvious way than I have pondered above) from an environmental perspective aside from anything else, particularly in the diesel heavy terminus train sheds.

Usually called a "shore supply" and connected to the coaching stock. I believe such a solution had been added to the depot at Scarborough.

I can see it not being popular for shorter stops even at Marylebone. It is a faff to connect and dis-connect that would be tricky on shorter turnarounds.

Something slicker like a fast charge connection might be better. So some conductors that were energised only when an appropriate train was over them and contact made by shoes being lowered or conductor raise. Along the lines of the fast charge connection about to be trialled at West Ealing.

 

[fgwrich]

The Mark 5s don't use AAR. It's WTB using UIC cables, with an additional CAF/Mk 5 -specific jumper as well.

Fair enough, It tends to get confusing these days as to what uses what. However, point does still stand though; 68s have it ready to go, 57s don’t. And I’d be surprised if you could fit such a system.

 

[Philip]

You aren’t taking into account that the small 16 loco fleet is now split between at least 3 freight/charter operators who are busy using them for their own purposes.

Could the 68s not take over these freight duties if they're deemed unsuitable for Marylebone, freeing up the subset of 57s Virgin once used for hauling Chiltern mainline trains?

 

[12LDA28C]

Could the 68s not take over these freight duties if they're deemed unsuitable for Marylebone, freeing up the subset of 57s Virgin once used for hauling Chiltern mainline trains?

As previously mentioned, 57s aren't compatible with Mk5 stock as they don't have the necessary control equipment.

 

[Philip]

As previously mentioned, 57s aren't compatible with Mk5 stock as they don't have the necessary control equipment.

Yes but that goes for most other locos aside from 68s, this is in case 68s are deemed unsuitable because of the noise. There would need to be modifications for 57s but I'm sure they would doable.

 

[HSTEd]

Fair enough, It tends to get confusing these days as to what uses what. However, point does still stand though; 68s have it ready to go, 57s don’t. And I’d be surprised if you could fit such a system.

I wouldn't.
Wire Train Bus is an open standard designed for retrofit onto existing rolling stock.
It does not have the deliberate lock-in built into manufacturer based specifications.

It would depend on what the additional jumper did though, and my employers RSSB access has been suspended so I can't get the spec.

 

[Nym]

I would. Translating the 57s control system to WTB is a multi million pound job.
And although WTB is a unified standard, the implementation of the datagrams within it is not.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes but that goes for most other locos aside from 68s, this is in case 68s are deemed unsuitable because of the noise. There would need to be modifications for 57s but I'm sure they would doable.

If the modifications to the 68s are unsuccessful I would not expect the Mk5s to go to Chiltern, locos and stock would be provided together as a package.

 

[43096]

I would. Translating the 57s control system to WTB is a multi million pound job.
And although WTB is a unified standard, the implementation of the datagrams within it is not.

WTB-ÖBB appears to be becoming a de facto standard, though. Used by ÖBB on all its push-pull sets, including RailJet and NightJet, and is fitted to almost all its loco fleet. It has also become the standard protocol on Vectrons and is being used by CD and on the Talgo sets being delivered to DB and DSB.

 

[Nym]

WTB-ÖBB appears to be becoming a de facto standard, though. Used by ÖBB on all its push-pull sets, including RailJet and NightJet, and is fitted to almost all its loco fleet. It has also become the standard protocol on Vectrons and is being used by CD and on the Talgo sets being delivered to DB and DSB.

Yes.
But one also needs to consider that the 57 is a very old fashioned form of train that doesn’t play well with ANY packet based systems.

 

[Killingworth]

Give them to EMR to operate a spilt Liverpool - Nottingham. They need some more modern stock to compete with TPE.

One 158 out of action this week after hitting a tree. Another failed after leaving Sheffield this morning and had to reverrse back from Dore, apparently lost its voice/horn!

 

[43096]

But one also needs to consider that the 57 is a very old fashioned form of train that doesn’t play well with ANY packet based systems.

Fully agreed!

 

[warwickshire]

Another issue for Chiltern Railways is for service and stabling at Banbury depot, at the back of Banbury depot, in the adjacent fields is also a new big housing estate just being built.
Could this prove a issue with noise again?
Could this turn out like Scarborough?
Also any update on the Class 68 sound modification silencers yet? If anyone knows much appreciated. Thank You.

 

[172007]

Another issue for Chiltern Railways is for service and stabling at Banbury depot, at the back of Banbury depot, in the adjacent fields is also a new big housing estate just being built.
Could this prove a issue with noise again?
Could this turn out like Scarborough?
Also any update on the Class 68 sound modification silencers yet? If anyone knows much appreciated. Thank You.

You won't know until it happens. Stourbridge whilst it has had a few complaints over noise stables the 68's and the topography of the site is extreme in that there are residential houses nearby that are below, above and level to the stabling point.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Another issue for Chiltern Railways is for service and stabling at Banbury depot, at the back of Banbury depot, in the adjacent fields is also a new big housing estate just being built.
Could this prove a issue with noise again?
Could this turn out like Scarborough?
Also any update on the Class 68 sound modification silencers yet? If anyone knows much appreciated. Thank You.

The sensible approach in that case is that the depot was there before the houses, so the residents will just have to deal with it. If that means the houses don't sell for quite so exorbitant prices, so be it. Finally some affordable housing!

 

[Trainbike46]

The impact of noise doesn't just depend on the distance of the housing to the depot and sound emitted at the depot, but also on how soundproof the houses are - which means the new housing could be built with this in mind (tbh, a worthwhile idea regardless of the presence of a nearby depot!)

 

[zwk500]

The sensible approach in that case is that the depot was there before the houses, so the residents will just have to deal with it. If that means the houses don't sell for quite so exorbitant prices, so be it. Finally some affordable housing!

That may be the obvious approach but it's not always how it works. Part of it would depend on the planning permission conditions for overnight operation.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I have just been sent a photo from a friend, of a 68/Mk5a set in Worcester Shrub Hill this afternoon, and all the TPE livery from the coaches has been removed, and now it is base light grey, with the darker grey on the doors. It appeared to be moving back to Longsight from Long Marston. Maybe they do have a home?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I have just been sent a photo from a friend, of a 68/Mk5a set in Worcester Shrub Hill this afternoon, and all the TPE livery from the coaches has been removed, and now it is base light grey, with the darker grey on the doors. It appeared to be moving back to Longsight from Long Marston. Maybe they do have a home?

Link to formerly Twitter (x) has been posted in the Nova 3 thread in case anyone wants to see it I'll quote that post here:

Seen on twitter that one set has been unbranded and ran as the following:

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1543 Long Marston to Longsight Car. M.D. | 22/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1543 departure from Long Marston to Longsight Car. M.D. on 22/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

https://twitter.com/Railway_Harry/status/1760718087744025065?t=6OIviFdMdp4KCHvHYfFc_w&s=19

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have just been sent a photo from a friend, of a 68/Mk5a set in Worcester Shrub Hill this afternoon, and all the TPE livery from the coaches has been removed, and now it is base light grey, with the darker grey on the doors. It appeared to be moving back to Longsight from Long Marston. Maybe they do have a home?

Wouldn't take much to stick a blue stripe and Chiltern logo on that

 

[172007]

Wouldn't take much to stick a blue stripe and Chiltern logo on that

Don't half look Chiltern. Also, suspiciously, the grey colours of this set look somewhat glossy and polished. Almost as if it's the final colours just ready for a minimal application of branding.

 

[Iskra]

Don't half look Chiltern. Also, suspiciously, the grey colours of this set look somewhat glossy and polished. Almost as if it's the final colours just ready for a minimal application of branding.

While I suspect your are probably correct; it’s not conclusive. If there was any form of painting or re-vinyling about to occur, surely the first step would be detailed cleaning of the train first.

 

[172007]

While I suspect your are probably correct; it’s not conclusive. If there was any form of painting or re-vinyling about to occur, surely the first step would be detailed cleaning of the train first.

Very true, any livery could be used to cover that with vinyl. Until a quietly modified 68 turns up then there won't be many Chiltern set anyhow.

 

[43096]

I have just been sent a photo from a friend, of a 68/Mk5a set in Worcester Shrub Hill this afternoon, and all the TPE livery from the coaches has been removed, and now it is base light grey, with the darker grey on the doors. It appeared to be moving back to Longsight from Long Marston. Maybe they do have a home?

It is also quite possible that it is a condition of the lease return that it has to be removed.

 

[Russel]

Not normally something I'd like, but the base grey actually suits the Mk5 sets, the front of the DVT coach certainly looks like it means business without the TPE vinyl...

 

[Whybother]

It is also quite possible that it is a condition of the lease return that it has to be removed.

As part of handback procedures to the leasing company, they will check the sets over. Giving the TOC a notification of any rectifications, modifications, deep cleaning tasks and debrandings that have to be done for the lease company to accept them.

It’s all part of the process and every unit that goes through this situation, will have to go through the same procedure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As part of handback procedures to the leasing company, they will check the sets over. Giving the TOC a notification of any rectifications, modifications, deep cleaning tasks and debrandings that have to be done for the lease company to accept them.

It’s all part of the process and every unit that goes through this situation, will have to go through the same procedure.

I presume this would apply to the spare driving trailer - 12802 ?. Will it need to go through Wolverton for a check ?. I assume 12802 is part of the lease ?.

 

[Whybother]

Yes it would have to go through the same procedure.

It might not be at Wolverton, it might have to go to Longsight depends on where the contract says the work has to be done.

 

[aem7ac]

This thread has gone quiet for a while, guessing no new news.
I was reading the thread about the ORR approving the Grand Union proposal for London Euston - Stirling services. The decision letter states the services will utilize "existing off-lease diesel trains". Posts in the thread stated that no rolling stock had been decided yet, and therefore the "likely Class 22x" was not confirmed.
By any chance, could Grand Union utilize Mk5s for this service? With a proposed start date of June 2025, I'm wondering if there is a chance that no 22xs could be available in time.

 

[43102EMR]

This thread has gone quiet for a while, guessing no new news.
I was reading the thread about the ORR approving the Grand Union proposal for London Euston - Stirling services. The decision letter states the services will utilize "existing off-lease diesel trains". Posts in the thread stated that no rolling stock had been decided yet, and therefore the "likely Class 22x" was not confirmed.
By any chance, could Grand Union utilize Mk5s for this service? With a proposed start date of June 2025, I'm wondering if there is a chance that no 22xs could be available in time.

The application stated the use of 221s or 222s, dependent on availability