Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[Peter Sarf]

The road lobby is too powerful for that, sadly; it's worthy of further discussion in a separate thread.

This thread really ought to be about potential future uses for 68s.

I think the 68s have a future, most likely freight. That will then leave the ex TPE Mk5s less usable.

For passenger work a primary consideration is somewhere where the 68s noise is going to be less of an issue. That narrows things down a lot !.

Meanwhile Chiltern have an interest in success in improving the noise levels from the 68s. I think that HAS to happen as otherwise Chiltern and the ex Mk5s are going to collect the cost of converting another locomotive type to push-pull.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Question about the mk5s (if they get their issues fixed and its decided to abandon the 68s due to noise or whatever) is what loco could feesibly replace them? Would there have to be a new loco or are there any reasonable (Someone would say "bring back the 37s!!!!!!") locos that are currently in storage or aren't being heavily worked excluding the 68s?

 

[JonathanH]

Question about the mk5s (if they get their issues fixed and its decided to abandon the 68s due to noise or whatever) is what loco could feesibly replace them?

None. The coaches would be abandoned as well.

 

[Philip]

Question about the mk5s (if they get their issues fixed and its decided to abandon the 68s due to noise or whatever) is what loco could feesibly replace them? Would there have to be a new loco or are there any reasonable (Someone would say "bring back the 37s!!!!!!") locos that are currently in storage or aren't being heavily worked excluding the 68s?

Class 57s would be a good replacement, they were reliable machines for Virgin's Pendolino-drag operations.

 

[Rail Quest]

Question about the mk5s (if they get their issues fixed and its decided to abandon the 68s due to noise or whatever) is what loco could feesibly replace them? Would there have to be a new loco or are there any reasonable (Someone would say "bring back the 37s!!!!!!") locos that are currently in storage or aren't being heavily worked excluding the 68s?

I don't believe so either. One thing that I've wondered (and apologies if this has been asked/answered earlier in the thread) - do locomotives need the TMS software fitting to them in order to run in conjunction with the MK5s? Given the TPE 68s have additional screens fitted to their cabs, I'd assume so. If so, then from my understanding, only the TPE specific 68s will be able to use them as I believe the rest of the 68s aren't fitted with this equipment.

Given that the 88/93s are both of similar design to the 68s, my guess is perhaps, if the money/willingness was there - they could be fitted with the required additional equipment relatively simply compared to other locos but of course this would limit the sets to electric-only or 90% electrified routes, of which I can't think of a single route that is lacking an intercity-style EMU that could do with an upgrade that fits this criteria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the 88/93s are both of similar design to the 68s, my guess is perhaps, if the money/willingness was there - they could be fitted with the required additional equipment relatively simply compared to other locos but of course this would limit the sets to electric-only or 90% electrified routes, of which I can't think of a single route that is lacking an intercity-style EMU that could do with an upgrade that fits this criteria.

It was always the intention, I believe, to use electric locos on them post TPE electrification.

 

[sprinterguy]

It was always the intention, I believe, to use electric locos on them post TPE electrification.

Yeah, it was part of the provision included in the 2015 franchise agreement.

 

[aaronspence]

As someone who also lives near the tracks and has Scotrail trains passing up to Aberdeen, the 170's are far noiser than the HSTs

 

[12LDA28C]

I think the 68s have a future, most likely freight. That will then leave the ex TPE Mk5s less usable.

For passenger work a primary consideration is somewhere where the 68s noise is going to be less of an issue. That narrows things down a lot !.

Meanwhile Chiltern have an interest in success in improving the noise levels from the 68s. I think that HAS to happen as otherwise Chiltern and the ex Mk5s are going to collect the cost of converting another locomotive type to push-pull.

Any operator that takes on the Mark 5s will take the 68s too.

Nobody is going to go to the extra expense of converting a different loco type to push-pull operation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Any operator that takes on the Mark 5s will take the 68s too.

Nobody is going to go to the extra expense of converting a different loco type to push-pull operation.

I thought they made a big thing at the time of the order / introduction that the Mk5s were designed to be compatible with more than just the 68s?

I'd have to point out that there's a number of class 90s currently up for sale and there's no doubt some wired routes on which they could be used that would free up bi mode or even DMU stock that could be better deployed elsewhere.

...or did they quietly change things since they announced that in a way which has effectively locked the Mk5s and 68s to each other unless major expenditure is involved?

 

[12LDA28C]

I thought they made a big thing at the time of the order / introduction that the Mk5s were designed to be compatible with more than just the 68s?

I'd have to point out that there's a number of class 90s currently up for sale and there's no doubt some wired routes on which they could be used that would free up bi mode or even DMU stock that could be better deployed elsewhere.

...or did they quietly change things since they announced that in a way which has effectively locked the Mk5s and 68s to each other unless major expenditure is involved?

@Peter Sarf specifically mentioned Chiltern. 90s wouldn't be much use there...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

@Peter Sarf specifically mentioned Chiltern. 90s wouldn't be much use there...

Yes, but it's also been pointed out that Chiltern wouldn't be able to take more than just under half the fleet unless the 68 silencing can be effected quickly as they'd only be able to operate the same number of services with them as they currently do with the Mk3 stock - personally i would like the whole fleet to end up with Chiltern, but my gut feeling is it won't happen.

 

[Killingworth]

I thought they made a big thing at the time of the order / introduction that the Mk5s were designed to be compatible with more than just the 68s?

I'd have to point out that there's a number of class 90s currently up for sale and there's no doubt some wired routes on which they could be used that would free up bi mode or even DMU stock that could be better deployed elsewhere.

...or did they quietly change things since they announced that in a way which has effectively locked the Mk5s and 68s to each other unless major expenditure is involved?

Aren't Class 90's about 35 years old?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Aren't Class 90's about 35 years old?

They are, but they have the advantage of being immediately available ( subject to most of them needing an overhaul ).

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes, but it's also been pointed out that Chiltern wouldn't be able to take more than just under half the fleet unless the 68 silencing can be effected quickly as they'd only be able to operate the same number of services with them as they currently do with the Mk3 stock - personally i would like the whole fleet to end up with Chiltern, but my gut feeling is it won't happen.

And as has also been pointed out, a modification is currently in development to address the noise issue, which hopefully is successful.

 

[Vanmanyo]

And as has also been pointed out, a modification is currently in development to address the noise issue, which hopefully is successful.

How far is that into production? I've heard lots on it being a thing but still have no idea when this is going to happen?

 

[12LDA28C]

How far is that into production? I've heard lots on it being a thing but still have no idea when this is going to happen?

It's not in production yet, as described currently being developed.

 

[DanNCL]

I thought they made a big thing at the time of the order / introduction that the Mk5s were designed to be compatible with more than just the 68s?

I'd have to point out that there's a number of class 90s currently up for sale and there's no doubt some wired routes on which they could be used that would free up bi mode or even DMU stock that could be better deployed elsewhere.

...or did they quietly change things since they announced that in a way which has effectively locked the Mk5s and 68s to each other unless major expenditure is involved?

A set of Mark 5As was tested with a Siemens Vectron at Velim, unsure if this was push-pull though or simply as a conventionally hauled rake.

 

[jagardner1984]

Since we are in the realms of speculation - and ignoring the limitations of Euston, but theoretically could a former TPE Mk5 go into a rake of Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 ?

 

[liamf656]

Since we are in the realms of speculation - and ignoring the limitations of Euston, but theoretically could a former TPE Mk5 go into a rake of Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 ?

It was mentioned that they are too different from one another, see quote below

Mk5 is slightly wider than a Mk5a. Ignore Wikipedia it's inaccurate. The slightly extra width helps passengers get through the corridor so a Mk5A as a sleeper conversion is a non starter as you can't have beds lengthways due to risks to the spine and neck in an accident.

 

[jagardner1984]

It was mentioned that they are too different from one another, see quote below

Yes - but sorry my question is whether they would couple, TMS etc working - ie for example the 1st Coaches to be used as an additional seated coach

This came into my head from the recent discussion in the CS thread about the claim by the Exec there that the train could sell “3 or more times over” - and if there was some theoretical possibility of - for example during the Edinburgh festival / Inverness tourist season - running a third train with a reduced number of sleeping carriages (limited by the number built, obviously) but increased Seated capacity from some of these Mk5a cars.

Obviously a whole number of other reasons why I suppose that is not likely to get off the ground, but mechanically speaking, could it ?

 

[JohnMcL7]

Yes - but sorry my question is whether they would couple, TMS etc working - ie for example the 1st Coaches to be used as an additional seated coach

This came into my head from the recent discussion in the CS thread about the claim by the Exec there that the train could sell “3 or more times over” - and if there was some theoretical possibility of - for example during the Edinburgh festival / Inverness tourist season - running a third train with a reduced number of sleeping carriages (limited by the number built, obviously) but increased Seated capacity from some of these Mk5a cars.

Obviously a whole number of other reasons why I suppose that is not likely to get off the ground, but mechanically speaking, could it ?

They wouldn't be able to couple as they are since the two coach sets use different couplers since the sleeper coaches are designed to easily couple and be split apart so they use Dellner couplers while the TpE coaches are designed to work in a fixed five coach formation with buckeye couplers at each end.

 

[Meerkat]

Give the 68s and Mk5s to GWR for Bristol - Penzance, replacing Castles/158s/IETs.

At night, use them on the Night Riveria replacing the 57s.

Then GWR has a business case to order some Caledonian Mk5s to replace the Sleeper Mk3s.

I'm a genius, right?

I love this..
”We’ve got a really really noisy loco looking for a home…”
”how about the sleeper?”

How noisy are they for the driver?
It does sound like it could be a reverb issue that could be designed/damped out, rather than just needing bigger silencers.

 

[Vanmanyo]

How noisy are they for the driver?

At least he won't sleep

 

[978wta]

They wouldn't be able to couple as they are since the two coach sets use different couplers since the sleeper coaches are designed to easily couple and be split apart so they use Dellner couplers while the TpE coaches are designed to work in a fixed five coach formation with buckeye couplers at each end.

Mk5a actually has shackles at each end not buckeye.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Not sure if anyone has seen this but a tender has been put in place for Chiltern which seems to signal Mk5as for them? It suggests they are looking for multiple units or carriages that can be hauled by a loco, and with driver training to start next year it is looking like Mk5as

Replacement (Existing) Rolling Stock for Chiltern Railways [Notice]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited ("Chiltern"), is seeking proposals from established rolling sto... A Utilities Contract Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 300M.

bidstats.uk

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited ("Chiltern"), is seeking proposals from established rolling stock owners for the leasing and associated maintenance services of between 25 and 70 of their existing vehicles to operate intercity and regional services on the Chiltern Main line. The vehicles are expected to have the following characteristics:

• Comprised of either self-powered multiple units or coaching vehicles that can be hauled by locomotive;

• Be able to be utilised in fixed formations of between 5 and 6 passenger vehicles or sub-multiples of;

• Capable of operating at 100mph;

• (in relation to driving vehicles) fitted with the TPWS Mark 4 protection system (this is a requirement of the Chiltern Main Line);

• Have power operated centrally-locked doors;

• Compliant with accessibility legislation;

• Compatible with the existing infrastructure on the Chiltern Main Line;

• Offer passengers a high-level of on-board comfort including full HVAC systems, on-board CCTV and real-time passenger information;

• Deliver a reduction in ambient noise compared to the rolling stock that operates Chiltern's existing London to Birmingham services (Class 68 locomotive and MKIII coaches).

• Any diesel-powered solutions shall be compatible with alternative fuels, such as HVO, from the service introduction date.

The above is not an exhaustive list of Chiltern's requirements and further information will be provided in the procurement documentation.

The rolling stock proposed shall be available to support a driver training programme within 2024 and available to enter passenger service by early 2025...

 

[Energy]

Not sure if anyone has seen this but a tender has been put in place for Chiltern which seems to signal Mk5as for them? It suggests they are looking for multiple units or carriages that can be hauled by a loco, and with driver training to start next year it is looking like Mk5as

Replacement (Existing) Rolling Stock for Chiltern Railways [Notice]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited ("Chiltern"), is seeking proposals from established rolling sto... A Utilities Contract Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 300M.

bidstats.uk

Not exactly, one of the requirements is:

• Deliver a reduction in ambient noise compared to the rolling stock that operates Chiltern's existing London to Birmingham services (Class 68 locomotive and MKIII coaches).

with the 25-70 vehicles suggesting a minimum (25) being 68/MKIII replacement and the maximum being total Chiltern mainline replacement.

68/MK5as are an option if the 68s new silencer design is successful.

Chiltern has multiple tenders out for converted/new battery/new multimode stock out, not all of its tenders will result in an order.

 

[Rail Quest]

Not sure if anyone has seen this but a tender has been put in place for Chiltern which seems to signal Mk5as for them? It suggests they are looking for multiple units or carriages that can be hauled by a loco, and with driver training to start next year it is looking like Mk5as

Replacement (Existing) Rolling Stock for Chiltern Railways [Notice]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited ("Chiltern"), is seeking proposals from established rolling sto... A Utilities Contract Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 300M.

bidstats.uk

I'd heard something from a mate that Chiltern were in talks about taking on the MK5a's but thought it was false gen... turns out it might be right after all?

I honestly don't understand why Chiltern would want to go down the MK5/68 route - would this be to replace the 165s given the troubles that Chiltern have been experiencing with them lately or instead to replace the MK3s if this is indeed regarding a MK5 procurement?

 

[Vanmanyo]

Chiltern has multiple tenders out for converted/new battery/new multimode stock out, not all of its tenders will result in an order

They have two tenders out.
One is for brand new bi mode units to replace some 165s on Aylesbury routes to be replaced around 2027.

The second is this one to replace Mk3s by 2025.

The second one isn't an order. It's not for new units. It's for second hand units so the only obvious choice is the Mk5as (which has been rumoured to me by several staff at Chiltern). Although yes in theory this tender could be rejected or fall through I think it's highly likely we see the Mk5as on the CML

I honestly don't understand why Chiltern would want to go down the MK5/68 route - would this be to replace the 165s given the troubles that Chiltern have been experiencing with them lately or instead to replace the MK3s if this is indeed regarding a MK5 procurement?

Like I mentioned above there is a tender for new units to replace some of the 165s. This would be merely to replace fully the mk3s with possibly potential to increase capacity by replacing some 168 diagrams freeing up more units etc. The 165s are going to get a light refresh to see them out and the 168s are currently undergoing refurbishment.

 

[matacaster]

They wouldn't be able to couple as they are since the two coach sets use different couplers since the sleeper coaches are designed to easily couple and be split apart so they use Dellner couplers while the TpE coaches are designed to work in a fixed five coach formation with buckeye couplers at each end.

If the couplers were changed to dellner, could sleeper sets comprise one 5 coach all sleeper and one ex-tpe Mk5 day coach set with full recliners?