Potential Replacement of Northern 769s

[317 forever]

I wonder whether Northern could inherit the 8 323s not currently heading there, plus a suitable quantity of spare modern EMUs such as 350/2s and 379s, to replace its 769s? In addition, Northern could inherit some 158s and/or 175s from Transport for Wales.

Services would need to be recast and in some cases split so that the electrified sections use these EMUs and non-electrified sections pure DMUs. For example, Southport via Atherton would need to use DMUs and Hazel Grove shuttles EMUs.

This would admittedly break several convenient links for through passengers. However, I am merely looking at the operational feasibility of such a scheme.

 

[AM9]

I wonder whether Northern could inherit the 8 323s not currently heading there, plus a suitable quantity of spare modern EMUs such as 350/2s and 379s, to replace its 769s? In addition, Northern could inherit some 158s and/or 175s from Transport for Wales.

Services would need to be recast and in some cases split so that the electrified sections use these EMUs and non-electrified sections pure DMUs. For example, Southport via Atherton would need to use DMUs and Hazel Grove shuttles EMUs.

This would admittedly break several convenient links for through passengers. However, I am merely looking at the operational feasibility of such a scheme.

For those reasons alone, (maintaining convenient links and operational convenience), I suspect that Northern will go the distance using them as planned unless the reliability of 769s falls significantly. The expense of breaking an exisiting contract and paying for more is probably not within the TOC's range of options.

 

[507020]

Northern are not replacing the 769s. In fact they are significantly more likely to expand their operations with TfW 769s to places like Hazel Grove than they are to lease 379s. Even then, the point of the 769s is the need to run on Diesel. Getting rid of them would just create a shortage of DMUs at a time when Northern may be about to have some commandeered for the Marston Vale.

 

[jonnyfan]

The Northern 769s are having air conditioning fitted to the cabs, so there's certainly no imminent plan to get rid of them.

 

[AM9]

The Northern 769s are having air conditioning fitted to the cabs, so there's certainly no imminent plan to get rid of them.

Good.

 

[Sm5]

Not going to get very far from Lostock on the wigan line with a 379 or 350.

 

[HarryF]

I don’t think Northern are in a position to be removing trains capable of running on diesel from the fleet, when there is a nationwide shortage of DMUs and some of the ones currently in use are rusting to pieces.

 

[317 forever]

Northern are not replacing the 769s. In fact they are significantly more likely to expand their operations with TfW 769s to places like Hazel Grove than they are to lease 379s. Even then, the point of the 769s is the need to run on Diesel. Getting rid of them would just create a shortage of DMUs at a time when Northern may be about to have some commandeered for the Marston Vale.

While I was not looking at the reality of any lease on existing 769s, and was imagining their withdrawal being imminent, it does seem a good idea for Northern to inherit the TfW 769s - provided they can get those units to work.

Indeed, at the risk of digressing in my own thread, I found my ride on my TfW 769 last year fine.

 

[AM9]

While I was not looking at the reality of any lease on existing 769s, and was imagining their withdrawal being imminent, it does seem a good idea for Northern to inherit the TfW 769s - provided they can get those units to work.

Indeed, at the risk of digressing in my own thread, I found my ride on my TfW 769 last year fine.

I think that is the case for many who didn't decide they were bad before they before they even saw them. Far a normal passenger, they are far more comfortable than class 150s.

 

[507020]

I think that is the case for many who didn't decide they were bad before they before they even saw them. Far a normal passenger, they are far more comfortable than class 150s.

Other than for noise, the 769s are worse to travel on than Sprinters, but more so 156s and 158s than 150s. The ride quality and seats are virtually identical, but the issue is that the 769s lack the bike spaces and USB ports found on the same services when operated by Sprinters. A pair of 150s also has double the number of toilets and 156s and 158s have better seats with tables.

 

[Neptune]

Other than for noise, the 769s are worse to travel on than Sprinters, but more so 156s and 158s than 150s. The ride quality and seats are virtually identical, but the issue is that the 769s lack the bike spaces and USB ports found on the same services when operated by Sprinters. A pair of 150s also has double the number of toilets and 156s and 158s have better seats with tables.

But better if you need neither a bike space or a USB socket which from experience is the vast majority of passengers.

 

[AM9]

Other than for noise, the 769s are worse to travel on than Sprinters, but more so 156s and 158s than 150s. The ride quality and seats are virtually identical, but the issue is that the 769s lack the bike spaces and USB ports found on the same services when operated by Sprinters. A pair of 150s also has double the number of toilets and 156s and 158s have better seats with tables.

I disagree on the ride, - the 769s are much smothered, especially in the driving ends where the additional weight of the genset's makes for a far less bumpy experience. And the noise, - that really is an improvement.
USB ports might help those who can't be bothered to either charge their devices before they travel, or carry a portable chrager, but the majority of passengers wouldn'rate that above basic comfort needs, specially as the average journey on the 769s is probably well under an hour.
Given the experimental nature of the 769s, I think that now Northern have learnt how to handle their foibles, they are quite acceptable as a fill-in for a few years that at least goes some way to minimise CO2 and particulate pollution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But better if you need neither a bike space or a USB socket which from experience is the vast majority of passengers.

USB sockets I observe seem to be very rarely used. People who have phones which don't hold a charge usually have a power bank, but increasingly phone batteries do last a full day.

Bike space yes, but you could easily provide that by taking 6 seats (3 rows on one side) out.

 

[Neptune]

USB sockets I observe seem to be very rarely used. People who have phones which don't hold a charge usually have a power bank, but increasingly phone batteries do last a full day.

They get more use on longer distance services perhaps but they are certainly not a game changer on units that work the sorts of services 769’s work.

Bike space yes, but you could easily provide that by taking 6 seats (3 rows on one side) out.

An easy fix but not exactly a crisis as it stands. I’m sure people will always find a way to get a bike on and store it, not like they’re banned or anything.

The two ‘issues’ that make a 150 a ‘better’ unit are both niche and to the vast majority of passengers (I’d wager well over 90%) they are a total non-issue.

The benefits of a 769 over a pair of 150’s are huge and far outweigh the reasons given for why they are, to quote ‘worse to travel on than sprinters’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The benefits of a 769 over a pair of 150’s are huge and far outweigh the reasons given for why they are, to quote ‘worse to travel on than sprinters’.

The downside is that they're unreliable and so substitution with nothing or a 2-car 150 is likely!

 

[Neptune]

The downside is that they're unreliable and so substitution with nothing or a 2-car 150 is likely!

That is a downside but not in the post I was replying to. It was the inference that a more environmentally sound train with an almost identical interior is somehow inferior to a dirty diesel unit due to 2 very niche requirements.

Only Northern seem to have got any form of half decent reliability out of the 769’s. If more can be got hold of as an interim measure it would surely be a good thing. The TfW units are a quick modification to re-instate the pantograph and associated parts from what I understand. That’s a fair few more 150’s released for strengthening other services.

 

[jonnyfan]

From May only 4 out of the 8 769s will be diagrammed daily (excluding Sundays, as has always been the case), this is down from the current 6, possibly a temporary measure while the cab air con work is carried out?

 

[507020]

But better if you need neither a bike space or a USB socket which from experience is the vast majority of passengers.

What’s this supposed to mean? These features are parts of the modern passenger experience, which have come to be expected in recent years, especially since the 769s replace Sprinters with these features on the same services.

Why would Northern spend a fortune retrofitting USB ports if they aren’t wanted by the vast majority of passengers?

I disagree on the ride, - the 769s are much smothered, especially in the driving ends where the additional weight of the genset's makes for a far less bumpy experience. And the noise, - that really is an improvement.

All ex-BR bogie designs provide a smooth ride compared to something like a 195 anyway. The Sprinters aren’t identical, but I must admit I always sit in the driving cars of the 769s with the Diesel engines. It really can’t be overstated how much of an improvement the reduction in noise is.

USB ports might help those who can't be bothered to either charge their devices before they travel, or carry a portable chrager, but the majority of passengers wouldn'rate that above basic comfort needs, specially as the average journey on the 769s is probably well under an hour.

USB sockets I observe seem to be very rarely used. People who have phones which don't hold a charge usually have a power bank, but increasingly phone batteries do last a full day.

I always fully charge my device before I leave the house and carry a portable charger if I am likely to be using it a lot that day, but when USB ports (or 240V sockets) are present on the train I will always use them. I would rather have as much charge as I can get.

Bike space yes, but you could easily provide that by taking 6 seats (3 rows on one side) out.

An easy fix but not exactly a crisis as it stands. I’m sure people will always find a way to get a bike on and store it, not like they’re banned or anything.

The two ‘issues’ that make a 150 a ‘better’ unit are both niche and to the vast majority of passengers (I’d wager well over 90%) they are a total non-issue.

You could just remove the first class area which isn’t needed and only results in the loss of 12 seats to create a parcel van area similar to 150s and 156s which is always appreciated to accommodate bikes and luggage. I actually don’t understand why they didn’t do this before they entered service.

It is certainly not a non-issue and I do see a lot of people taking bikes on 769s, probably more so at the Southport end than the Manchester end.

Given the experimental nature of the 769s, I think that now Northern have learnt how to handle their foibles, they are quite acceptable as a fill-in for a few years that at least goes some way to minimise CO2 and particulate pollution.

The benefits of a 769 over a pair of 150’s are huge and far outweigh the reasons given for why they are, to quote ‘worse to travel on than sprinters’.

I also strongly agree with this. Provided they run, as well as freeing up a number of Sprinters to strengthen other services, they provide Northern with valuable proof of concept for bi-mode operation, make use the recent electrification that would otherwise see Sprinters under the wires and consequently reduce Diesel pollution both in Manchester city centre when running on electric and on Diesel with their much more modern engines.

That is a downside but not in the post I was replying to. It was the inference that a more environmentally sound train with an almost identical interior is somehow inferior to a dirty diesel unit due to 2 very niche requirements.

A 769 as a whole is not inferior to 2 dirty Diesels, but the interior simply is inferior since it lacks some of the facilities present on the Sprinters, which as you say are requirements. The 2+2 156 interior is nothing like identical.

Fortunately though, the reliability issues of 2021 are virtually behind them.