Potential stock for future Nottingham to Liverpool services?

[Nym]

Agreed - it's the same as the regular suggestions that XC's 220/221s are cascaded onto the ex Central Citylink services

We've seen the problems with trying to cascade 158/170s onto slow stoppers that were better suited to an unglamorous unit like a 150

Some people seem to fixated on sexy top speeds/ swanky First Class and don't pay attention to mundane things like door configurations (trying to load/unload a couple of hundred passengers at Manchester Piccadilly's island platforms with a 222 doesn't sound much fun) or Sprinter differentials or acceleration or fuel economy or...

You mean like trying to load a couple of hundred people at Piccadilly 13/14 onto and off of an IET Class 802? Oh hang on.

 

[JonathanH]

You mean like trying to load a couple of hundred people at Piccadilly 13/14 onto and off of an IET Class 802? Oh hang on.

802s no longer operate to Manchester Piccadilly on Newcastle services and will not be reintroduced.

Alongside 397s, they run one diagram from Piccadilly to Scotland via Preston, and have a longer dwell to cope with exactly the problem you note. It is far from ideal. This is not feasible for all services so simply because this service has to run with end door stock does not mean others should.

 

[Philip]

802s no longer operate to Manchester Piccadilly on Newcastle services and will not be reintroduced.

Alongside 397s, they run one diagram from Piccadilly to Scotland via Preston, and have a longer dwell to cope with exactly the problem you note. It is far from ideal. This is not feasible for all services so simply because this service has to run with end door stock does not mean others should.

I have seen an 802 working from Manchester Pic on a North TPE service within the last couple of months, so they do still sometimes appear on that route, maybe limited to Sundays.

 

[QSK19]

If the battery bi-mode 195s prove to be a success then perhaps these will be a candidate for replacing 158s in the next few years, with an additional order from EMR?

Perhaps the GWR HST sets might be a short term option if EMR want 158s replaced quickly?

I don’t think the DfT would be that generous to EMR - I strongly feel that the DfT have treated regional services in the East Midlands with contempt; so I don’t think they’re going to change that by giving us new stock.

I wouldn’t be surprised if those 158s are somehow made to run that route for another 15 years and then some 19x get cascaded over to the East Midlands rail network once the operators in their current locations have got bored of them and want new battery/hydrogen stock. Either way, as other posters have said, I think that the 158s are there to stay until a viable cascade solution is thought up and finalised (which probably won’t be any time soon).

 

[CJ]

I have seen an 802 working from Manchester Pic on a North TPE service within the last couple of months, so they do still sometimes appear on that route, maybe limited to Sundays.

They have most recently operated on Manchester Airport - York services (Saturdays only) and Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows (Sundays only) within the last few weeks, due to engineering works outside of York and Manchester Victoria railway station (Philips Park Jn area).

 

[Fokx]

They have most recently operated on Manchester Airport - York services (Saturdays only)

However the 802’s did not use the junction and operated to/from the main shed (due to the route between Victoria and Stalybridge being closed)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think they need to transfer this to TPE and operate using double 185s, interworked with the Cleethorpes for added flexibility.

 

[CJ]

However the 802’s did not use the junction and operated to/from the main shed (due to the route between Victoria and Stalybridge being closed)

I was on one last Saturday and it went through Platform 14 at Piccadilly, I alighted at Oxford Road. You can see an example of one here:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C05233/2022-02-12/detailed#allox_id=0

The Victoria - Stalybridge route was blocked / closed on Sunday last week.

 

[Foxcover]

I still think they need to transfer this to TPE and operate using double 185s, interworked with the Cleethorpes for added flexibility.

Absolutely, and start something similar asap with what must be (by now) spare TPE resources Sheffield to Liverpool, temporarily truncating the EMR Norwich-Liverpools at Sheffield until they can recover their service. Will at least simplify that for EMR.

 

[Fokx]

I was on one last Saturday and it went through Platform 14 at Piccadilly, I alighted at Oxford Road.

Apologies I was thinking towards the previous blockade rather than this weekends one, very unusual indeed!

Absolutely, and start something similar asap with what must be (by now) spare TPE resources Sheffield to Liverpool, temporarily truncating the EMR Norwich-Liverpools at Sheffield until they can recover their service. Will at least simplify that for EMR.

There are still insufficient resources at TPE to run a shuttle of the above. The spare drivers at Sheffield are currently route and traction training ready for the December timetable and currently aren’t all competent on the Cheshire lines services and the conductors don’t sign the route. Spare Manchester drivers are also route learning both Cheshire lines and Sheffield lines as well as covering ‘Core’ services.

I’m terms of guards Piccadilly sign the whole route but have no spare conductors at the moment, Liverpool sign to Manchester, Airport are leaning the route and York only sign to Manchester (but not all retain competency)

C-asdo is also not fully operational on this route either as EMR serve stations such as Halewood at peak times which does not have a C-asdo beacon and therefore is required to operate a 3 car only in theory.

 

[LowLevel]

The answer is apparently retention of all 26 class 158s with interior/exterior refurbishment and mechanical upgrades, according to a staff fleet update released today.

 

[swt_passenger]

I still think they need to transfer this to TPE and operate using double 185s, interworked with the Cleethorpes for added flexibility.

Academic now, since the previous post to this one, by @LowLevel , but it’s been reported fairly recently in Modern Railways that TPE were keeping all the 185s for use on their existing routes…

 

[QSK19]

The answer is apparently retention of all 26 class 158s with interior/exterior refurbishment and mechanical upgrades, according to a staff fleet update released today.

Did it state whether the refurbishment would be up to 170/360 standard or a lighter one (eg simply replacing seat covers)?

 

[bramling]

The answer is apparently retention of all 26 class 158s with interior/exterior refurbishment and mechanical upgrades, according to a staff fleet update released today.

Ladbrokes could have done odds on that one, I think!

Seems a wise plan. I presume this doesn't necessarily mean the retained 158s are guaranteed to be deployed on Liverpool-Norwich, though? 170s have worked the route in the past, and notwithstanding the lack of gangway connections would have the benefit of not having end doors.

 

[RailWonderer]

Ladbrokes could have done odds on that one, I think!

Seems a wise plan. I presume this doesn't necessarily mean the retained 158s are guaranteed to be deployed on Liverpool-Norwich, though? 170s have worked the route in the past, and notwithstanding the lack of gangway connections would have the benefit of not having end doors.

158s are booked traction though not unusual to see a 156 turn up at Norwich.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did it state whether the refurbishment would be up to 170/360 standard or a lighter one (eg simply replacing seat covers)?

The EMR 158s (except the one they nicked from down South, I think) have Grammer IC3000s with the larger headrest, so I'm not sure how you could make them much better other than perhaps changing the layout, though unless they are going to move to 6-car working the high density layout is probably sensible.

You could swap them out for FISA LEANs but it'd be a waste of money.

 

[LowLevel]

Specification to be determined still but expected to be lower density.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Specification to be determined still but expected to be lower density.

Thanks.

Will that I guess come with a move to 6-car working? A reduced number of seats would be a problem if it was a mix of 2/4 as at present.

 

[43102EMR]

The answer is apparently retention of all 26 class 158s with interior/exterior refurbishment and mechanical upgrades, according to a staff fleet update released today.

It is a bit of a shame that no new stock will be used (I say new, new for EMR at least and newer than the 158s), but it does make sense. Will be interesting to see how they’re treated in the refurbishment!

 

[reb0118]

Will be interesting to see how they’re treated in the refurbishment!

What would be your thoughts on something similar to the ScotRail 158 interiors?

 

[JonathanH]

What would be your thoughts on something similar to the ScotRail 158 interiors?

It would seem relatively easy to achieve given they already have the same seats. Whether that is exactly what is needed is a different matter.

 

[43102EMR]

What would be your thoughts on something similar to the ScotRail 158 interiors?

They’re already the same as the Inverness sets - would be ideal for them to be more like the Corkerhill ones in all honesty. Much more comfortable interior

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’re already the same as the Inverness sets - would be ideal for them to be more like the Corkerhill ones in all honesty. Much more comfortable interior

Richmond seats? Ugh, no.

They just need to use the existing Grammer IC3000s but in a lower density layout like the Inverness sets or TfW. But ONLY if increasing to 6 car running, if they are sticking with 2/4 the high density interior is needed.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you base things on the current timetable it looks like it will take 18 units to operate Nottingham - Liverpool. (21 if you don’t have 15 mins turn around at Nottingham) so the numbers may work.

What is unclear is if they will ever run the full proposed timetable on EMR including hourly on all routes in Lincolnshire. With the 170s no idea if they have enough stock to achieve this with Nottingham- Liverpool retained. I do like the proposal to form some 158s into 3 cars. So they can run this route with a mix of 5 and 6 cars. It will also help general service to have more 3 cars for Peak services to other places.

even with Covid I have gone on many standing services in Lincolnshire which were recently 153 operated. i suspect the low frequency and lack of seats is still suppressing demand.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks.

Will that I guess come with a move to 6-car working? A reduced number of seats would be a problem if it was a mix of 2/4 as at present.

How many CLC stations can accept 6 car Class 158 formations ?

 

[TheBigD]

If you base things on the current timetable it looks like it will take 18 units to operate Nottingham - Liverpool. (21 if you don’t have 15 mins turn around at Nottingham) so the numbers may work.

What is unclear is if they will ever run the full proposed timetable on EMR including hourly on all routes in Lincolnshire. With the 170s no idea if they have enough stock to achieve this with Nottingham- Liverpool retained. I do like the proposal to form some 158s into 3 cars. So they can run this route with a mix of 5 and 6 cars. It will also help general service to have more 3 cars for Peak services to other places.

even with Covid I have gone on many standing services in Lincolnshire which were recently 153 operated. i suspect the low frequency and lack of seats is still suppressing demand.

Without including Liverpool to Nottingham, EMR timetable plans were based around having a fleet of 11 X 3 car 170s and 33 X 2 car 170s. With EMR now getting the 170s currently with TfW, that will leave them with a fleet of 13 x 3 car and 27 x 2 car, a shortfall of 4 units or 6 vehicles.

(Speculation) If EMR retain all of their 26 x 158s that leaves them with enough for 6 car operation* Liverpool-Nottingham (18 units), 4 to make up the shortage of 170s, and 4 spare.

* There was speculation a while back suggesting 5 car 158 operation of the Liverpool-Nottingham route. Not familiar with the northern end of the route but do platform lengths preclude 6 car operation? This would obviously require the creation of around 8 x 3 car 158s from 12 x 2 car.

 

[Failed Unit]

T

Without including Liverpool to Nottingham, EMR timetable plans were based around having a fleet of 11 X 3 car 170s and 33 X 2 car 170s. With EMR now getting the 170s currently with TfW, that will leave them with a fleet of 13 x 3 car and 27 x 2 car, a shortfall of 4 units or 6 vehicles.

(Speculation) If EMR retain all of their 26 x 158s that leaves them with enough for 6 car operation* Liverpool-Nottingham (18 units), 4 to make up the shortage of 170s, and 4 spare.

* There was speculation a while back suggesting 5 car 158 operation of the Liverpool-Nottingham route. Not familiar with the northern end of the route but do platform lengths preclude 6 car operation? This would obviously require the creation of around 8 x 3 car 158s from 12 x 2 car.

thanks. TPE have ran 6 at the north end. But not sure about Widnes. If they refurbish the 158s I would be amazed if that didn’t include SDO. It will also help the 158s cover large flows such as football/ Skegvagas and Lincoln Christmas market. Coupled up 170s don’t allow people to move to the correct part but could cover Liverpool temporarily while the 158s are away.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could Class 222s eventually be cascaded onto the Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street services once the new trains arrive on the Midland Mainline?

 

[TheBigD]

Could Class 222s eventually be cascaded onto the Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street services once the new trains arrive on the Midland Mainline?

As many have pointed out on numerous threads, 5 car 222s (currently 240 seats) would be a capacity decrease over 4 car 158s (currently 284 seats). Even if you were to refit the interior of the 222s similar to the Lumo 803s (mostly airline seating and very few luggage stacks), you would be around 280-290 seats, so no real increase in capacity but an increase in operating costs.

 

[Whistler40145]

Would a pair of 170s be a viable option?