Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[D365]

LNER has ordered CAF bi-modes instead of placing a repeat order for 80x.

OT - but are these being assembled in Newport?

 

[Russel]

Not the same thing, but (old) Alstom produced 106 Pendolino vehicles in France, a decade after the closure of Washwood Heath.
Hitachi has also produced class 80x vehicles and complete trains in Japan and Italy as well as at Newton Aycliffe.
LNER has ordered CAF bi-modes instead of placing a repeat order for 80x.

Forgot about the Pendolinos, so it wouldn't be impossible to build some more 345's at another site... I would imagine the cost would be eye watering though, to set up a production line somewhere else for a small add-on order.

 

[Nym]

Welcome to UK Rolling Stock Procurement and Management planning

Bubble bursts, probably 8,000 - 12,000 people out of work now as a result.

Plus countless single customer supporting businesses in the area, it's going to be a grim few weeks in these areas.

Especially with the bottom falling out of the refurbishment business, so unlikely to be any work at the secondary major sites such as Wolverton, Swansea, Eastleigh, Crewe and Doncaster.

 

[43096]

Not the same thing, but (old) Alstom produced 106 Pendolino vehicles in France, a decade after the closure of Washwood Heath.

Last time I checked, Savigliano was in Italy!

 

[Invincible]

If Derby closes, where would TfL stand with future orders for the 345 fleet?

Would Alstom be able to produce them at another site or would TfL have to look to order from elsewhere for something that can be made to work on Crossrail?

Like MG and now some electric mini cars Jigs could be sent to India or China to resume production. But would not look good for the Government and with rising labour and transportation costs might no be any cheaper

 

[1Q18]

If Derby closes, where would TfL stand with future orders for the 345 fleet?

Would Alstom be able to produce them at another site or would TfL have to look to order from elsewhere for something that can be made to work on Crossrail?

At this point, if TfL wanted to order further trains for Crossrail it would go out to tender anyway, and compatibility with things like the platform edge door spacings would just be part of the specification, so even now it wouldn't be guaranteed that Alstom would get the contract. They'd have an advantage if they could still offer the Aventra platform, but equally Siemens/CAF/whoever else could offer a product with the right door spacing and other bits and bobs.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Welcome to UK Rolling Stock Procurement and Management planning

Bubble bursts, probably 8,000 - 12,000 people out of work now as a result.

Plus countless single customer supporting businesses in the area, it's going to be a grim few weeks in these areas.

Especially with the bottom falling out of the refurbishment business, so unlikely to be any work at the secondary major sites such as Wolverton, Swansea, Eastleigh, Crewe and Doncaster.

It was also so predictable once you started throwing cash at foreign suppliers to setup shop here then we have a surplus of stock despite everything thats been trashed over the last two years.

 

[43096]

At this point, if TfL wanted to order further trains for Crossrail it would go out to tender anyway, and compatibility with things like the platform edge door spacings would just be part of the specification, so even now it wouldn't be guaranteed that Alstom would get the contract. They'd have an advantage if they could still offer the Aventra platform, but equally Siemens/CAF/whoever else could offer a product with the right door spacing and other bits and bobs.

You could write the spec in such a way that only 345s would fit, in the same way that London Midland specified the 350/3 sets.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It was also so predictable once you started throwing cash at foreign suppliers to setup shop here then we have a surplus of stock despite everything thats been trashed over the last two years.

Double the irony with Hitachi. Newton Aylcliff got set up on the promise of a large enough order for 80x's. Then we order too many in short time and some have to get built abroad !. Then the famine comes.

I remember Roger Ford in Modern Railways talking about the need to smooth out DMU replacement and that was as far back as before Privatisation when the first generation DMUs were coming of age !.

We never learn.

I vaguely recall that a while back the government dictated that no new DMUs should be ordered. We now have a shortage of DMUs (or other types of self propulsion). We have a surplus of EMUs and an almost stalled electrification program (need to pick on a suburban area or greater or two). Worse still a domestic manufacturer - Alstom at Derby that only builds straight EMUs.

 

[Nym]

Never was there a larger advertisement for owning the IPR and engineering knowledge to have your own communications and coupling standards and letting very large frameworks for stock production over a period of 10 - 15 years.

 

[DanNCL]

The Aventra units could be fitted for diesel and battery packs for the Northern or GWR (Churchward) tenders if issued?

Bombardier weren’t willing to offer the Aventra with Diesel engines for the previous Northern order which is part of the reason it went to CAF instead. That could of course have changed in the last 8 years however.

If Derby closes, where would TfL stand with future orders for the 345 fleet?

Would Alstom be able to produce them at another site or would TfL have to look to order from elsewhere for something that can be made to work on Crossrail?

Alstom could produce them in Germany or Poland. Whether they’d be willing to or not is another matter.

OT - but are these being assembled in Newport?

Yes.

Double the irony with Hitachi. Newton Aylcliff got set up on the promise of a large enough order for 80x's. Then we order too many in short time and some have to get built abroad !. Then the famine comes.

Although on the flip side of that, more recently Newton Aycliffe has helped out the same Italian site that built the 802s by carrying out some work on Metro units for Milan’s line 4.

 

[wickham]

Regarding the question of who could build additional 345 cars - the answer is anybody, dosent actually need to be a true rolling stock manufacturer, as long as they are provided with a FULL SET of all the required drawings. However, if those drawings are the property of Alstom it is unlikely that they would part with them, unless they sell them, ie; sell the rights or sell the use of them under licence, but I guess this would be for "big bucks" !

 

[D365]

Regarding the question of who could build additional 345 cars - the answer is anybody, dosent actually need to be a true rolling stock manufacturer, as long as they are provided with a FULL SET of all the required drawings.

What about the intellectual property and engineering expertise for: the computerised train control systems; testing & commissioning; network safety case...

 

[Energy]

Although on the flip side of that, more recently Newton Aycliffe has helped out the same Italian site that built the 802s by carrying out some work on Metro units for Milan’s line 4.

CAF Newport is supposedly going to do some export work.

Derby's inland position makes Bombardier and Alstom reluctant to do much export work at it. Though Derby did do the design work on the bogeys for the Freciarrossa 1000 trains.

 

[Meerkat]

Would it be cynical to ponder whether a flurry of orders might be waiting until a bit nearer the election?
Truly cynical would be to link the business case to railway pay offers being accepted first…..

 

[norbitonflyer]

Would it be cynical to ponder whether a flurry of orders might be waiting until a bit nearer the election?

They'd have to be quick. They have said that current orders at litchurch lane will be completed in January (and there is only a week left of that). After that redundancies are inevitable. And very few people are betting on Sunak calling for a spring election - turkeys don't vote for early Christmases.

 

[WAB]

I remember Roger Ford in Modern Railways talking about the need to smooth out DMU replacement and that was as far back as before Privatisation when the first generation DMUs were coming of age !.

And we're spending so much time fannying around thinking about maybe procuring more DMUs, that we'll be left with no choice but the replace all of the Sprinters and some of the more Turbos all at once, causing even more of a boom/bust effect. And even if the orders do come in, some have speculated that given it has been 12 years since DMUs were last built at Derby and that was based on what is now a 22 year old platform, Alstom may be unwilling/unable to produce DMUs at Derby.

 

[Mikey C]

Could Widnes become an assembly plant for any future orders?

 

[D365]

Could Widnes become an assembly plant for any future orders?

Assembly… perhaps, but it wouldn’t be anything as comprehensive as what Litchurch Lane can offer.

 

[IndianPacific]

Could Widnes become an assembly plant for any future orders?

If “actual“ Alstom won the HS2 contract their plan was to expand Widnes (I think they already own the land) and build the trains there. So anything is possible but the order would have to be big enough.

 

[RobShipway]

You could write the spec in such a way that only 345s would fit, in the same way that London Midland specified the 350/3 sets.

You are probably likely to be specifying 345s anyway, as there is not much else that can probably fit through the Crossrail tunnels, without major works needing to take place.

And we're spending so much time fannying around thinking about maybe procuring more DMUs, that we'll be left with no choice but the replace all of the Sprinters and some of the more Turbos all at once, causing even more of a boom/bust effect. And even if the orders do come in, some have speculated that given it has been 12 years since DMUs were last built at Derby and that was based on what is now a 22 year old platform, Alstom may be unwilling/unable to produce DMUs at Derby.

The later versions of the class 172 i.e. 172/1 - 3 where more diesel versions of Electrostar trains. Could the same not be done with Aventra?

 

[Snow1964]

The later versions of the class 172 i.e. 172/1 - 3 where more diesel versions of Electrostar trains. Could the same not be done with Aventra?

Alstom don't even market the Aventra anymore, they have moved on and now sell the Adessia

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

However whilst going to get an Alstom link, noticed they have third quarter financial results later this morning, including analysts conference calls. Might be something come out today.

 

[D365]

The later versions of the class 172 i.e. 172/1 - 3 where more diesel versions of Electrostar trains.

No they weren’t.

 

[hwl]

Alstom don't even market the Aventra anymore, they have moved on and now sell the Adessia

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

However whilst going to get an Alstom link, noticed they have third quarter financial results later this morning, including analysts conference calls. Might be something come out today.

Adessia is a UIC gauge product... (also see Siemen's Mireo)
The merger required the sale of some platform IP and factories (from both parties) on the continent hence they have had to rebrand and realign the product range there.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And we're spending so much time fannying around thinking about maybe procuring more DMUs, that we'll be left with no choice but the replace all of the Sprinters and some of the more Turbos all at once, causing even more of a boom/bust effect. And even if the orders do come in, some have speculated that given it has been 12 years since DMUs were last built at Derby and that was based on what is now a 22 year old platform, Alstom may be unwilling/unable to produce DMUs at Derby.

Indeed. Bombardier Derby seems to have committed themselves to producing EMUs only. That was at the time the UK government were messaging the end of orders for DMUs in the UK. I suspect the Aventra platform (UK gauge) would not easily accept a diesel engine ?. Now Alstom own Derby I think there might potentially be even less appetite to adapt the Aventra platform.

I wonder why Alstom bought Bombardier ?. Don't just assume it was to get Derby works - there is the rest of Europe out there and Derby is now less relevant to Europe than it would have been.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Alstom don't even market the Aventra anymore, they have moved on and now sell the Adessia

Adessia seems to be a new umbrella name for Alstom commuter trains. The "Reference projects" section includes X'trapolis and Aventra examples and various other types that didn't have brand names previously.

 

[hwl]

Indeed. Bombardier Derby seems to have committed themselves to producing EMUs only.

They have offered a bi-mode

That was at the time the UK government were messaging the end of orders for DMUs in the UK. I suspect the Aventra platform (UK gauge) would not easily accept a diesel engine ?.

Not a problem.

 

[Invincible]

They have offered a bi-mode

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

A Member of Eversholt UK Rails Group

eversholtrail.co.uk

Also a Hydrogen/battery version of the Aventra 3 years ago, till Hydrogen tests in Germany suggested Hydrogen was not the right direction.

 

[dgl]

I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom were quite happy to sell the design of the Aventra to someone else, if only so that they got lumbered with it an not them.
As for LU ordering more 345's, would they want to? Any other manufacturer could build something that would fit and LNER have proved that going for the same stock for the sake of commonality isn't necessarily what will happen.

 

[birchesgreen]

I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom were quite happy to sell the design of the Aventra to someone else, if only so that they got lumbered with it an not them.
As for LU ordering more 345's, would they want to? Any other manufacturer could build something that would fit and LNER have proved that going for the same stock for the sake of commonality isn't necessarily what will happen.

The extra trains would only be a small number is it not? Plus they have a large fleet of 345s (and 710s) so would assume it would be logical to keep the same.