Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[LNW-GW Joint]

If TfL orders extra lizzie line trains, I would expect them to be exactly the same as the existing 345s

TfL might want that, but once Alstom moves on in platform terms there is no guarantee they could replicate the 345s (or other Aventras).
The wider supply chain is now very different from that when Bombardier took the orders.

 

[Phatcontroller]

I'd think the running costs of the new factories are lower than that of the Derby site

It is interesting that Siemens has recently announced an increase in % of Picc line trains to be made at Goole. Could this be Government pressure to generate good news about uk manufacturing and/or an indication that Siemens has wider ambitions?

 

[Wolfie]

Adessia is an umbrella brand for high floor multiple units, including classes previously branded as X'Trapolis and Aventra.

Take a look at the world map showing all the places where Adessia trains are already running. Even the Class 701s are included.

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

Given the 701 fiasco the Aventra brand was irredeemably impaired in the UK.

 

[Energy]

It is interesting that Siemens has recently announced an increase in % of Picc line trains to be made at Goole. Could this be Government pressure to generate good news about uk manufacturing and/or an indication that Siemens has wider ambitions?

Delays in depot works means TfL has had to push back delivery slightly.

 

[Invincible]

Nick Crossfield of Alstom was interviewed on Radio 4 Today at about 0615.

Story now on BBC news website here:

Alstom: Production at train maker set to stop with 3,000 jobs at risk

Alstom says 3,000 jobs in Derby are at risk, adding there would be an impact on the wider supply chain.

www.bbc.co.uk

Heather Wheeler, Conservative MP for South Derbyshire said she did not expect the factory to close.
She told BBC Radio Derby: "These negotiations are still ongoing and are absolutely at the point of having a successful outcome, so I was really surprised to hear Nick's [Crossfield] comments this morning. I think somebody somewhere is being disingenuous.
"There is ongoing work with the refurbishment work so there should be no shutdown of the factory. I know that there is another deal on trains coming forward."
But Margaret Beckett, Labour MP for Derby South, said: "I can't share the confidence she [Heather Wheeler] expressed about how the government knows all about it and has got it all sorted, it's just everybody else who's got it wrong.
"I just listened to the rail industry... they're all saying the same thing as Alstom."

Wonder who is correct, and what the unknown "another deal" is?

 

[Wolfie]

Wonder who is correct, and what the unknown "another deal" is?

Hmmm.... Don't want to sound depressing but one of them represents a struggling governing party massively behind in the polls and in a seat highly unlikely to be retained.... Random unspecified positivity doesn't save jobs.

 

[Mikey C]

Hadn't realised Margaret Beckett was still an MP. Standing down at the next election though.

Shouldn't "emergency talks" have been taking place a year ago anyway, not when the plant is about to run out of work. It's not as if the government can create new work for the plant straight away, even if an order was placed today.

 

[birchesgreen]

Shouldn't "emergency talks" have been taking place a year ago anyway, not when the plant is about to run out of work. It's not as if the government can create new work for the plant straight away, even if an order was placed today.

Indeed, or even earlier. Its not like its a surprise when the current orders end.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Refurbishment won't keep multiple production lines going though.
By its nature it's a low-throughput operation over an extended period.

 

[Trainman40083]

Curious how the number of jobs at risk has increased from 2000 to 3000!

Tomorrow they will include the wider supply chain.

 

[BlueLeanie]

It is interesting that Siemens has recently announced an increase in % of Picc line trains to be made at Goole. Could this be Government pressure to generate good news about uk manufacturing and/or an indication that Siemens has wider ambitions?

When I think of Tube orders though, I think of Labour Mayor of London placing the orders rather than Westminster.

So is this to mitigate against the bad publicity of the TikTok vids that are circulating about Labour's Luton bollards and ulez cameras?

 

[Energy]

When I think of Tube orders though, I think of Labour Mayor of London placing the orders rather than Westminster.

So is this to mitigate against the bad publicity of the TikTok vids that are circulating about Labour's Luton bollards and ulez cameras?

No.

Delays in depot works means TfL has had to push back delivery slightly.

 

[Chester1]

Trains for the UK Market. We import trains, but we don't export them. It is not a level playing field.

There is an easy solution to that. The Americans have a law that specifies that 60% of value of manufacture of publicly procured trains must be American. That is probably too high immediately it could start at 40% and go up 2% every year. If Alstom don't want to occasionally give a UK factory continental work and their factory closes they would make themselves ineligible for future UK orders. Hitachi, Siemens and CAF would share the market and probably be joined by Stadler eventually. Alstom would be free to bid for open access operator orders.

 

[Bigfoot]

Tomorrow they will include the wider supply chain.

They already have in the Bbc article

 

[ScotGG]

An obvious candidate for Derby is Class 465 replacement or refurbishment. They're over 30 years old and very tired. Even if the MetCams are to go there's still around 100 BREL 4-cars remaining. Over 30 years old. Either refurb to extend to 40+ years or replace with new stock.

 

[Trainman40083]

An obvious candidate for Derby is Class 465 replacement or refurbishment. They're over 30 years old and very tired. Even if the MetCams are to go there's still around 100 BREL 4-cars remaining. Over 30 years old. Either refurb to extend to 40+ years or replace with new stock.

I think that tender / contract for new trains has been brought forward to December 2024.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The Americans have a law that specifies that 60% of value of manufacture of publicly procured trains must be American. That is probably too high immediately it could start at 40% and go up 2% every year.

IIRC the requirement is now 80 per cent domestic content, which might be one of the reasons for the problems with the Avelia Liberty.

 

[dgl]

Yes, by all means put in a requirement for a minimum amount of local production, but it only works if your local production is good enough. I think a lot of car manufacturers don't have many good words to say about American manufacturing!
but that us a bit off topic.

 

[JonathanH]

An obvious candidate for Derby is Class 465 replacement or refurbishment. They're over 30 years old and very tired. Even if the MetCams are to go there's still around 100 BREL 4-cars remaining. Over 30 years old. Either refurb to extend to 40+ years or replace with new stock.

Bring that forward and there is another gap afterwards. At some point there is going to be a long gap.

What is even to say that Derby offers the right product for that build?

 

[Snow1964]

New build production completes tomorrow (20 March) on the Aventra programme at the company's Litchirch Lane facility.

Alstom said there will then be a period of time, until the summer, when it carries out testing of these new trains, while also undertaking services and maintenance work on existing fleets at the Derby site.

It added that it has identified a number of new build and refurbishment projects that can be brought forward to enable work to start quickly, together with longer term competitive procurements that it and other manufacturers can bid for.

If an agreement can be found with government in the next few days, Alstom believes it can commit to bringing its next generation of commuter train – Adessia – to Derby where it can be designed and then built.

Nick Crossfield, managing director at Alstom UK and Ireland, said: "Adessia will be Alstom's next generation of commuter train, and it is a huge opportunity for Derby and the wider UK rail sector.

"We are continuing to hold very constructive discussions with the Department for Transport to find a sustainable future for Derby, but time is short as our current projects are almost complete.

"We are committed to working with the government to create the certainty our staff and UK suppliers need and deserve."

Alstom looks to secure future of Derby site as time runs short - Insider Media

The managing director of Alstom UK and Ireland said the manufacturer is holding "very constructive discussions" to find a "sustainable future" for its Derby site following…

www.insidermedia.com

 

[Wolfie]

There is an easy solution to that. The Americans have a law that specifies that 60% of value of manufacture of publicly procured trains must be American. That is probably too high immediately it could start at 40% and go up 2% every year. If Alstom don't want to occasionally give a UK factory continental work and their factory closes they would make themselves ineligible for future UK orders. Hitachi, Siemens and CAF would share the market and probably be joined by Stadler eventually. Alstom would be free to bid for open access operator orders.

The size of the UK and US markets are far from compatible.... Oh and don't complain if the EU for example decides to reciprocate in other areas of manufacturing and absolutely kills the UK capability (passenger jet wings come to mind)....

 

[Mikey C]

Bring that forward and there is another gap afterwards. At some point there is going to be a long gap.

What is even to say that Derby offers the right product for that build?

And deliberately favouring Alstom might get a hostile legal response from CAF and Hitachi too, both with UK assembly plants. I can just imagine the political response in the Northeast for example...

 

[Wolfie]

And deliberately favouring Alstom might get a hostile legal response from CAF and Hitachi too, both with UK assembly plants. I can just imagine the political response in the Northeast for example...

... and Siemens...

 

[Mikey C]

... and Siemens...

As long as they get the follow on tube train orders, which HAVE to happen as the 1972 stock is genuinely ancient, they'll be ok. CAF have enough small orders to survive too.

Hitachi on the other hand have a gap before HS2 as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hitachi on the other hand have a gap before HS2 as well.

They've got what you might call a cracking job to get on with, have they not?

 

[Chester1]

The size of the UK and US markets are far from compatible.... Oh and don't complain if the EU for example decides to reciprocate in other areas of manufacturing and absolutely kills the UK capability (passenger jet wings come to mind)....

Yes the UK passenger rail market is much bigger than the US market!

The EU adopts or does not adopt protectionist measures depending on its own economic needs. Our national policy is basically irrelevant especially on manufacturing. The EUs relatively few core interests on trade of physical goods with the UK were protected by the Trade and Co-operation Agreement. Its likely the EU will adopt some measures on train rolling stock procurement to prevent China taking over the market. They are unlikely to specify China. It would be x % of the value of each train manufactured for a public owned institution must be made within the EU/EEA.

The EU is on a drive to move key economic functions back to the single market and no doubt airplane part manufacture will get to the top of the pile at some point. Airbus leaving the UK will eventually happen, its been talked about since 2016.

 

[najaB]

Airbus leaving the UK will eventually happen, its been talked about since 2016.

I know it's been talked about, but it's not like they don't have other facilities outside the EU/EEA - at least Canada, USA, the UK and China as far as I know. Now it would be a real slap in the face if they left the UK but remained in China!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The EU is on a drive to move key economic functions back to the single market and no doubt airplane part manufacture will get to the top of the pile at some point. Airbus leaving the UK will eventually happen, its been talked about since 2016.

There's the other Airbus anomaly of wings for the A220 being made for them by Spirit in Belfast (part of the ex-Bombardier setup).
Off-topic, but relevant to UK manufacturing policy.

 

[birchesgreen]

Airbus are already working flat out and struggling with an incredibly long order back-log, i doubt they want the upheaval of removing their UK production right now...

 

[Mikey C]

Airbus is a private company. Private companies don't move key factories AND development sites out of one country just on the whim of a few politicians.

Completely different to the situation with Derby, which has no work. It's not Alstom deliberately running down a busy factory to move production elsewhere.