Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[JonathanH]

Stadler fancy a new assembly plant?

All depends on who gets the future contracts. Are Alstom actually vacating the site? The article indicates that the site is being mothballed, not demolished.

 

[Chester1]

All depends on who gets the future contracts. Are Alstom actually vacating the site? The article indicates that the site is being mothballed, not demolished.

Mothballed would indicate they intend to do the HS2 order at Derby. The contract probably forces them to do it there or lose it. Two years of mothballing wouldn't be the worst outcome. This isn’t Alstom or the government's fault. Bombardier messed up the Aventra to the extent that SWR hasn't got units into service four years after they were meant to. The government cannot ignore that and give EMU contracts blindly to keep Derby open. Alstom inherited a mess, it didn't cause it.

 

[JonathanH]

The government cannot ignore that and give EMU contracts blindly to keep Derby open.

The government can't give EMU contracts blindly to be built in Derby under any circumstances.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The government can't give EMU contracts blindly to be built in Derby under any circumstances.

I’m sure they could require them to be built in the UK, which for Alstom would mean Derby in all but name.

 

[43096]

I’m sure they could require them to be built in the UK, which for Alstom would mean Derby in all but name.

The Widnes site was also identified as having potential for new train assembly, although that was before Alstom acquired Bombardier.

 

[heroicglaedr]

Now that the Aventra contracts have been fully delivered, does anybody have an idea whether Alstom is still liable for further penalty payments? Have these trains been fully homologated?. Interested since theyve had such bad QC..

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The government can't give EMU contracts blindly to be built in Derby under any circumstances.

Well it pretty much did when they awarded a fast-track contract for the first 387s in 2012.
This was after Hitachi had won the IEP order, and Siemens the Thameslink order, so Derby looked vulnerable.
DfT engineered that Southern/GTR order a tranche of 387s to bolster the Thameslink fleet before the 700s arrived, and that order ballooned into 387s for GWR and elsewhere, and then into the Aventra orders.
(GWR had been due to get cascaded 319s).

An article I just read said that Derby should get a contract to replace the Chiltern stock.
But that's diesel/bi-mode and not in Derby's current skill-set.
Chiltern aren't ready to issue an ITT yet anyway (neither are Northern or other possible TOCs).

The article also blames delays to HS2 for the gap in production, but again the rolling stock specification/design is incomplete.

 

[Dan G]

Chiltern opportunity notices (no tenders yet) are for any combination of electric, battery, and "low-emission" power.

Aventra looks the ideal train for Southeastern's tender; it's either that or Desiro Cities. I still think the Aventra might reappear, rebranded as being part of the "Adessia" family.

Or AT200s I guess. But still, Aventra must be/have been in with a shout.

 

[Energy]

Well it pretty much did when they awarded a fast-track contract for the first 387s in 2012.
This was after Hitachi had won the IEP order, and Siemens the Thameslink order, so Derby looked vulnerable.
DfT engineered that Southern/GTR order a tranche of 387s to bolster the Thameslink fleet before the 700s arrived, and that order ballooned into 387s for GWR and elsewhere, and then into the Aventra orders.
(GWR had been due to get cascaded 319s).

The Thameslink 387s were due to delays in signing the 700 contract which put it back by 3 years.

GWR's intended stock changed over time, IIRC originally a 365 on fast services and 319 on stoppers mix, then a 387/365 mix, and then some poking around with a Porterbrook speculative order ended up with 45 387s.

I don't think it's fair to say the 387s led to the Aventras. Greater Anglia's projected passenger numbers needed more trains and Bombardier won the contract.

An article I just read said that Derby should get a contract to replace the Chiltern stock.
But that's diesel/bi-mode and not in Derby's current skill-set.

A bimode Aventra has been offered for a while.

Aventra looks the ideal train for Southeastern's tender; it's either that or Desiro Cities. I still think the Aventra might reappear, rebranded as being part of the "Adessia" family.

Or AT200s I guess. But still, Aventra must be/have been in with a shout.

SE's requirements are really just any good EMU platform. Aventra has good regen performance while Desiro Cities are already in the SE fleet.

AT200s seems unlikely, its motor bogies are outside framed and heavy.

 

[Nym]

I’m sure they could require them to be built in the UK, which for Alstom would mean Derby in all but name.

Any government contracts need to be procured under the Utilities Procurement Act 2016 which opens up all competitions of this side to OJEU, so no, they could not.

 

[Chester1]

I’m sure they could require them to be built in the UK, which for Alstom would mean Derby in all but name.

The Widnes site was also identified as having potential for new train assembly, although that was before Alstom acquired Bombardier.

The Widnes facility was designed to be doubled and that is probably a better size for Alstom for refurbishment and assembly. If Alstom own the freehold for their Derby factory then they could make a fortune redeveloping it. Design work could be moved to a business park and assembly work to Widnes. Hitachi are making the shells for HS2 units so they could probably meet the contract between Newton Aycliffe and Widnes.

 

[Dan G]

Closure is now confirmed

Thousands of jobs to be lost from Derby train factory closure

Alstom points finger at transport secretary as work dries up for historic manufacturing plant

www.thetimes.co.uk

BBC version of story

The UK's largest rail assembly factory has confirmed it is resuming a redundancy process for 1,300 permanent staff members.

Derby train builder Alstom has given formal notice to the government that it has started mothballing its Litchurch Lane factory.

The manufacturer said having "no meaningful workload" until at least the middle of 2026 was "totally unsustainable"

In a letter to Mr Harper, first reported by the Times, external and confirmed by the BBC, Nick Crossfield, Alstom UK’s managing director, said the company has been left with no choice but to resume the redundancy consultation process.

The letter said: “The ending of train manufacture at Derby Litchurch Lane after 147 years is an outcome we have been working extremely hard to avoid.

"After ten months of inconclusive discussions, we must now begin the arduous and disruptive task of demobilising manufacturing operations at Derby Litchurch Lane.

“A production gap of this scale is totally unsustainable for Alstom and our supply chain to manage.”

Alstom: Train maker says 1,300 manufacturing jobs at risk

Derby train builder Alstom says it has "no meaningful workload" until at least the middle of 2026.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ScottGallagher]

Chiltern opportunity notices (no tenders yet) are for any combination of electric, battery, and "low-emission" power.

Aventra looks the ideal train for Southeastern's tender; it's either that or Desiro Cities. I still think the Aventra might reappear, rebranded as being part of the "Adessia" family.

Or AT200s I guess. But still, Aventra must be/have been in with a shout.

Is Stadler out of the question for Southeastern with a 777 variant , they have the 3rd rail experience after all.

 

[Invincible]

Is Stadler out of the question for Southeastern with a 777 variant , they have the 3rd rail experience after all.

The Government have said whoever gets the order for Southeastern will not be confirmed before 2025 (maybe Dec 2024?)

Several manufacturers (including Stadier) will say they can provide 3rd power.
But Alstrom say they can't afford to keep Derby open, have issued redundancy notices, and might offer trains (that provide 3rd power) built in Poland or India.
The draft Southeastern tender was issued in 2022, so the Government could have brought the full tender and order forward to 2023 give Derby a chance the get the order before the factory closes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Harper mentions the XC Voyager refurbishment.
Has that work been contracted to Alstom then?

 

[Snow1964]

BBC version of story

The UK's largest rail assembly factory has confirmed it is resuming a redundancy process for 1,300 permanent staff members.

Derby train builder Alstom has given formal notice to the government that it has started mothballing its Litchurch Lane factory.

The manufacturer said having "no meaningful workload" until at least the middle of 2026 was "totally unsustainable"

Companies making over 19 redundant have to notify the Insolvency Service in advance (called form HR1) 20-99 employees being made redundant need 30 days notice, for 100 or more 45 days notice.

The Insolvency Service is part of Government department of Business, (not Transport), so they will now be aware and can decide if we need the factory as a strategic industry or if they are happy to let around 2000 jobs and another about 15000 in supply chain potentially be affected.

Realistically either got to give Derby a refurb contract rapidly, or place some orders for 80-150 vehicles (but if they do that probably got to throw order at Hitachi, Siemens and CAF too to stop them squealing about unfair awards). Theoretically could probably order more 345s for Old Oak Extension, perhaps more 720s, then top up LNER order with CAF, some tube trains for Bakerloo from Siemens, and some 807s from Hitachi which could be rented to open access operator. But this isn't a thread to go off topic and speculate.

What is interesting is the news articles that seem to delved deeper refer to mothballing the site rather than closing it. So I wonder if there are hefty penalties in HS2 order if not assembled at Derby. I wonder if some strategic staff will be retained (even if they get seconded to another Alstom factory for few months to help out at factories elsewhere eg Poland or Portugal). If you offload all the talent and knowledge going to be virtually impossible to restart production.

 

[Nym]

Said it before and will say it again.

We don’t need four assembly plants in the UK. The DfT forced the hands of manufacturers to UK assembly to create their own fate of over capacity. So given we are where we are, what can the govt. do now other than let Derby fail…?

 

[Invincible]

Said it before and will say it again.

We don’t need four assembly plants in the UK. The DfT forced the hands of manufacturers to UK assembly to create their own fate of over capacity. So given we are where we are, what can the govt. do now other than let Derby fail…?

But Derby is the only site where most of the full train can be built.

 

[Snow1964]

Said it before and will say it again.

We don’t need four assembly plants in the UK. The DfT forced the hands of manufacturers to UK assembly to create their own fate of over capacity. So given we are where we are, what can the govt. do now other than let Derby fail…?

No, but if going to have start-stop order book, rather than a strategic smoothed level of production then need four at busy times.

But you are correct the current UK method of expecting hundreds of rail vehicles one year, and none another year is barmy idea.

Harper mentions the XC Voyager refurbishment.
Has that work been contracted to Alstom then?

Nothing announced, but the XC press release did mention refurbishing with parters Beacon Rail (trains owners) and Alstom. Although Widnes is on last few 390 refurbs so will soon have space too.

 

[Nym]

But Derby is the only site where most of the full train can be built.

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.
Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.

Nothing announced, but the XC press release did mention refurbishing with parters Beacon Rail (trains owners) and Alstom. Although Widnes is on last few 390 refurbs so will soon have space too.

But that could be on site at Central Rivers, down at Ilford where other work has been done or at Widnes which is much better set up for refurb work and has much lower operating costs than Litchurch Lane.

 

[Wolfie]

Said it before and will say it again.

We don’t need four assembly plants in the UK. The DfT forced the hands of manufacturers to UK assembly to create their own fate of over capacity. So given we are where we are, what can the govt. do now other than let Derby fail…?

Yup, spot on re shirt term political gain "look at this new factory and all of these new jobs" which was always destined to fail in the medium to longer term.

Cynically, and it definitely will be a factor with a General Election coming, if Derby fails the Tories can kiss goodbye to pretty much all of their East Midlands seats. Given that they are already in the mire... After 30+ years working in Whitehall my expectation is that Alstom will be given just enough work to push the bad news back until after the election....

 

[43096]

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.
Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.

If we were going down the road of keeping one site/company that could “build the whole train” then Washwood Heath would have been a much better bet. The high value stuff (power electronics) was UK design and build.

 

[Martin222002]

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.

Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.

Exactly that! People have been for too long fouled by Litchurch Lanes shear size that they did 'everything' there. No. It's just a Victorian scale assembly site, which is why they were able to pump out as many Aventra's as they did, by having 6 (if I'm remembering right) production lines going all at once. I'm pretty sure I've seen it said / written that Litchurch Lane is Asltom's biggest facility, and without a decent steady flow of orders is never going to be able keep a stable level of employment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But Derby is the only site where most of the full train can be built.

I think you could say the same of Newton Aycliffe now they can weld car bodies together.
All train manufacturing plants import a high proportion of components, in fact in manufacturing in general it is now usual to source equipment from multiple sites and companies (aircraft, cars, ships etc).
The unions make much of the supposed 15000 people in the Derby supply chain, but I bet many of those are already based abroad.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is Stadler out of the question for Southeastern with a 777 variant , they have the 3rd rail experience after all.

A 777 / METRO platform variant is unlikely, it is designed for relatively low-speed (up to 75 mph) metro like applications, such as merseyrail; A FLIRT variant would be more likely, as it is more designed for faster mainline and branchline services

Though personally I would be surprised if it went to Stadler

Back on topic, I'm sad to see the factory being mothballed, best of luck to everyone losing their job. Hopefully they'll be able to get a good new job soon (or retire!)

 

[hwl]

A 777 / METRO platform variant is unlikely, it is designed for relatively low-speed (up to 75 mph) metro like applications, such as merseyrail; A FLIRT variant would be more likely, as it is more designed for faster mainline and branchline services

Though personally I would be surprised if it went to Stadler

Back on topic, I'm sad to see the factory being mothballed, best of luck to everyone losing their job. Hopefully they'll be able to get a good new job soon (or retire!)

Stadler with their low floors are narrower at floor level reducing usable floor area and hence standing area, which will score very poorly with current DfT (including previous SE rolling stock tender) metrics.

Except for all the extruded and welded sections that get imported from China, and all the non process work get gets out shopped to companies like Promex, or the production of wiring looms that used to handled in house, that then got split out to RoC then told to Mothersons who’s already shut down their Derby site and the absolute mountains of electronics and power components that all get bought in from the mainland.
Litchurch Lane is and was an assembly site, the fact they assembled a bit more and had more processes on there including aluminium welding doesn’t mean the whole train is / was made there.


But that could be on site at Central Rivers, down at Ilford where other work has been done or at Widnes which is much better set up for refurb work and has much lower operating costs than Litchurch Lane.

I thought the extrusions came from Italy? Or has that changed in recent years?

 

[Nym]

I thought the extrusions came from Italy? Or has that changed in recent years?

The trucks rocking up had some very china looking typography on it.

 

[Thirteen]

Dumb question but can anyone of the factories be used for light rail? I think TfL's tram procurement could have a provision to have them built in the UK.

 

[Nym]

Dumb question but can anyone of the factories be used for light rail? I think TfL's tram procurement could have a provision to have them built in the UK.

How many times…
TfL procurement policy follows the law. Which means it will need to go to OJEU.

The Utilities Contracts Regulations 2016

These Regulations revoke and replace the Utilities Contracts Regulation 2006 (“the 2006 Regulations”).

www.legislation.gov.uk

TfL procurement policy requires this, and hence requires the use of OJEU.
You can’t simply “give” it to a factory in the UK.
Not to mention none of the four plants in the UK make trams(!)

 

[ScottGallagher]

A 777 / METRO platform variant is unlikely, it is designed for relatively low-speed (up to 75 mph) metro like applications, such as merseyrail; A FLIRT variant would be more likely, as it is more designed for faster mainline and branchline services

Though personally I would be surprised if it went to Stadler

Back on topic, I'm sad to see the factory being mothballed, best of luck to everyone losing their job. Hopefully they'll be able to get a good new job soon (or retire!)

Ah OK understood, just thought the 777 esqe interior would be ideal for SE metro like the 376