Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[superkev]

I think the writing was on the wall when Bombardia produced a lot of rubbish trains some of which despite things improvements under Alstom are still not in service or those which are are not as reliable as Hitachi Siemens etc.
Would you buy one for yourself?
Sadly Im afraid if I was buying trains it would be Flirts perhaps followed by Siemens and Hitachi.
Not helped when has Stradler produced the next generation train, the level boading Flirt, which to me has rendered all others obsolete.
So sad that a country that made some of the best trains for the world cant even make our own. Shades of the Leyland demise.
Put clerks in charge rather than engineers and it usually happens.
We need a British version of Elon Musk to get things done right.
Personal view.
K

 

[Chester1]

I think the writing was on the wall when Bombardia produced a lot of rubbish trains some of which despite things improvements under Alstom are still not in service or those which are are not as reliable as Hitachi Siemens etc.
Would you buy one for yourself?
Sadly Im afraid if I was buying trains it would be Flirts perhaps followed by Siemens and Hitachi.
Not helped when has Stradler produced the next generation train, the level boading Flirt, which to me has rendered all others obsolete.
So sad that a country that made some of the best trains for the world cant even make our own. Shades of the Leyland demise.
Put clerks in charge rather than engineers and it usually happens.
We need a British version of Elon Musk to get things done right.
Personal view.
K

If one factory has to close I would prefer Derby over Newton Aycliffe, Newport and Goole. Too much nostalgia around Derby and ongoing perception that it is the only train manufacturer in UK. Its also in a richer area than the other three. The real problem is a failure to export. Bombardier's Cairo monorail contract and Hitachi's Milan Metro work were the first UK train exports for 20 years. CAF seem to be committed to export work at Newport until they next time they win a new tender. Goole will be busy until Siemens finish the underground contract. Hitachi have invested a lot of money into Newton Aycliffe, its smaller than Derby therefore easier to tide over until HS2 stock starts production and they are well placed to win bi mode contracts too.

 

[HSTEd]

Ah, a state monopoly. That will only result in more dross being built.

As opposed to a system where companies with factories in the UK can use the threat of (politically very damaging) closure to extort additional rolling stock purchases from the government, regardless of the quality of the products offered?
Thats far worse than a state monopoly, which would at least be managed in the wider interests of the state.
The current system also requries the maintenance of enormous overcapacity in the system.

I’ve no idea why there is such a hang-up about there being UK assembly of trains: most of the high value stuff (traction equipment) comes from abroad anyway; I assume it’s the same superiority complex that gave us Brexit.

Because the general population still believes in the idea of UK manufacturing.
Admitting that manufacturing is dead, especially in comparatively big ticket sectors, would be a political disaster for the government and the political class as a whole.

If we were to back one domestic manufacturer then it should have been years ago and not the one that did survive (Derby). It would have been better to support Washwood Heath (MetCamm) as at least the traction equipment was UK sourced (Preston), but it suffered from the curse of Alstom.

Backing a privately owned monopoly factory would be the worst possible solution, given it is a state monopoly, but without the oversight of the railway and the manufacturer both ultimately answering to the government.

EDIT:
Also I would debate that traction equipment is particularly high value any more.
All the components are commodity items at this point.

Long gone is the time when traction inverter drives had to be designed by specialists specifically for the railway, they are standard industrial components built of other standard components, as are all the motors and control gear.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems DfT has said Derby is able to bid for Northern, Chiltern, or Southeastern fleet procurement

The Department of Transport has told the Local Democracy Reporting Service (LDRS) that Alstom is currently able to bid for “live procurements” in the market. A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “Rail manufacturing plays an important role in growing the UK economy and delivering better services for passengers. The Government remains committed to supporting the entire sector.
We remain in contact with Alstom as it develops a sustainable future for its Derby site.”

In addition to the statement provided, the Government said there are currently live procurements in the market being run by Northern, Chiltern and Southeastern. This competition process is open for all manufacturers including Alstom.

Under-threat Derby factory given chance to bid for new contracts

The city's biggest political leaders are rallying behind the Litchurch Lane firm's workers

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Although they really need orders now, of existing design if going to fill production capacity in 2024

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They always were able to bid for these contracts.
The question is if they have a viable solution to the TOC requirements.

 

[WilloughbyGC]

They always were able to bid for these contracts.
The question is if they have a viable solution to the TOC requirements.

Just spin from DAFT I'm afraid. Those 'contracts' are not even close to being actually tendered, and even if they were put out to tender tomorrow they wouldn't reach the shop floor for what, 3 years? That doesn't help Alstom, nor Hitachi or Siemens either. Not to mention their respective supply chains.

 

[Meerkat]

Do Alstom have a credible bi-mode product?
Considering their issues getting a standard 3rd rail only train in to service would anyone trust them enough that they would order a battery/electric offplan?
And they have given up on diesels haven’t they (and therefore presumably bi-mode diesels)?
That would leave them with Southeastern. They really need to get the 701s going pronto!

 

[QSK19]

Do Alstom have a credible bi-mode product?
Considering their issues getting a standard 3rd rail only train in to service would anyone trust them enough that they would order a battery/electric offplan?

Apparently, they put in an Aventra bi-mode bid for the EMR Intercity contract which subsequently went to Hitachi. Maybe the trust issue was a factor in them not getting the contract; but they must feel that it is credible if they put it forward.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do Alstom have a credible bi-mode product?
Considering their issues getting a standard 3rd rail only train in to service would anyone trust them enough that they would order a battery/electric offplan?
And they have given up on diesels haven’t they (and therefore presumably bi-mode diesels)?
That would leave them with Southeastern. They really need to get the 701s going pronto!

Alstom is much bigger than just the Derby works.
(Old) Alstom developed the Coradia platform into a bi-mode train, and SNCF bought significant numbers of the Polyvalent model for secondary lines.
However, as part of the takeover of Bombardier, they sold off the Polyvalent platform and its French factory to CAF.
CAF are now taking orders for the platform.

All the continental designs would have to be redesigned to fit UK gauge and other requirements.
Hitachi and Stadler already have a UK-spec bi-mode platform.

 

[Roast Veg]

I still have fond memories of fault finding on the AnsoldoBreda trams on the Midland Metro and their spaghetti style wiring that was different on every tram!

HS2 Is going to be a great success!

Hitachi Rail Italy is a completely different beast to the dire AnsaldoBreda of old - which was itself a completely different beast to the reliable and successful plant of even older still.

Had this just after the 2008 financial crash, Government ended up ordering a few electrostars (379s).

Which are still eye wateringly expensive to this day due to terrible financing. If an order is forced it would need to be paid for in cash and owned outright to avoid the same situation again, but the odds are near nil.

 

[Energy]

Which are still eye wateringly expensive to this day due to terrible financing. If an order is forced it would need to be paid for in cash and owned outright to avoid the same situation again, but the odds are near nil.

Yes and no, the lease is expensive because of the financial markets at the time. Leasing now wouldn't be a problem if good financing can be sorted.

 

[Roast Veg]

Yes and no, the lease is expensive because of the financial markets at the time. Leasing now wouldn't be a problem if good financing can be sorted.

Current interest rates are hardly favourable.

 

[Snow1964]

Do Alstom have a credible bi-mode product?
Considering their issues getting a standard 3rd rail only train in to service would anyone trust them enough that they would order a battery/electric offplan?
And they have given up on diesels haven’t they (and therefore presumably bi-mode diesels)?
That would leave them with Southeastern. They really need to get the 701s going pronto!

I think Derby have been making monorail trains for Cairo, and we know Alstom have recently won a contract for a new monorail in Dominican Republic

So there are alternatives to Aventra platform to use factory capacity, but if anything is required for short term (2024) delivery is unclear.

I'm not sure Alstom even intend to continue the ex Bombardier platform, nowadays seem to list : X'Trapolis for commuter trains; Coradia platform for regional trains.

 

[Signal_Box]

Entirely predictable.

Which will be the UK's first train manufacturing facility to close due to lack of orders, I wonder.

Derby, Newport and the North Eastern one who’s name escapes me all have political protection to a degree.

I’d suggest Newport (CAF) is probably the most safe with the TfW operation a nice source of new units, and life maintenance for a good while yet especially with the WAG wanting to keep welsh jobs etc.

Hitachi up north probably 2nd most safe, a XC 800 type train order would keep them busy for a good few years.

Then we have Derby, and Alstom who have the facility on Merseyside which can be set up for new build - which regional political set up / marginal seat shouts loudest ?

All very sad, normal working people at that mercy of whichever political party want to make a point and gain some votes.

 

[Sonik]

If one factory has to close I would prefer Derby over Newton Aycliffe, Newport and Goole. Too much nostalgia around Derby and ongoing perception that it is the only train manufacturer in UK. Its also in a richer area than the other three. The real problem is a failure to export. Bombardier's Cairo monorail contract and Hitachi's Milan Metro work were the first UK train exports for 20 years. CAF seem to be committed to export work at Newport until they next time they win a new tender. Goole will be busy until Siemens finish the underground contract. Hitachi have invested a lot of money into Newton Aycliffe, its smaller than Derby therefore easier to tide over until HS2 stock starts production and they are well placed to win bi mode contracts too.

The real issue with Derby is not so much the factory but the potential loss of UK engineering & development skills. Litchurch Lane is the only factory left that produces British designed trains, which incidentally they did also export in 2008 to South Africa in kit form.

Derby has had some initial reliability issues, but these do bed in, and to be fair plenty of the introduction issues are not really due to any fault with the trains themselves. Hitachi/CAF haven't exactly filled themselves with glory either with their naff cheaply built trains. So I'm not quite sure why the Aventra gets so much hate because IMO they are a pretty solid quality build that will easily outlast the rather flimsy & troublesome IETs or Civitys.

For HS2, Bombardier/Alstom are investing in new bogie production at Crewe, Hitachi have installed a new body welding line, and as usual the clueless government then pull the rug from under their feet by delaying the program. It's hardly a good advert for anyone thinking of investing in UK manufacturing. It's a similar picture in defense where BAE have pretty much given up on investing in the UK because they got shafted too many times. And Rishi just pulled the rug from under the UK car industry for the sake of short term political expediency.

 

[The Ham]

The real issue is not so much the factory but the potential loss of UK engineering & development skills. Litchurch Lane is the only factory left that produces British designed trains for the UK market.

Derby has had some initial reliability issues, but these do bed in, and to be fair plenty of the introduction issues are not really about any fault with the trains themselves. Hitachi/CAF haven't exactly filled themselves with glory either with their naff cheaply built trains. So I'm not quite sure why the Aventra gets so much hate because IMO they are a pretty solid quality build that will easily outlast the rather flimsy & troublesome IETs or Civitys.

For HS2, Bombardier/Alstom are investing in new bogie production at Crewe, Hitachi have installed a new body welding line, and as usual the clueless government then pull the rug from under their feet by delaying the program. It's hardly a good advert for anyone thinking of investing in UK manufacturing. It's a similar picture in defense where BAE have pretty much given up on investing in the UK because they got shafted too many times. And Rishi just pulled the rug from under the UK car industry for the sake of short term political expediency.

It's fine our industry can still provide parts for engineering firms elsewhere, how hard can it be to export to (say) France as their not that far away... oh that happened, erm, no sorry I've got nothing.

 

[RailWonderer]

So I'm not quite sure why the Aventra gets so much hate because IMO they are a pretty solid quality build that will easily outlast the rather flimsy & troublesome IETs or Civitys.

Seriously? The 720s on the GE are all knocking and rattling with rock hard Kiel seating. You will soon see on the WCML these are a major downgrade from the sturdy Desiros. The only quality trains of recent years have been the 70x Desiro City fleet and the Stadlers, and the Desiro City is a poor spec otherwise it would be an excellent train with proper 2+2 seats, tables, armrests and carpets.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Seriously? The 720s on the GE are all knocking and rattling with rock hard Kiel seating. You will soon see on the WCML these are a major downgrade from the sturdy Desiros. The only quality trains of recent years have been the 70x Desiro City fleet and the Stadlers, and the Desiro City is a poor spec otherwise it would be an excellent train with proper 2+2 seats, tables, armrests and carpets.

Seating is subjective, outside of that the 720s have been quite solid compared to its other family members. I've not seen complaints about its ride quality or any worrying issues about the train specifically outside of miscellaneous tweaks and change issued that can be done internally with the seating (if allowed that is).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I understand it, the weak link on Aventra has been the software TMS, which I'm pretty sure did not come from Derby.
A modern train is full of complex software, which can be written anywhere.
All the UK manufacturing sites are essentially assembly shops with the design, development and software being done elsewhere.
Alstom's problem at Derby for UK trains other than HS2 is which platform to base them on and how to produce the linked TMS.
For HS2 stock, I imagine it will be Hitachi's TMS, but I might be wrong.
If the train is based on the Frecciarossa 1000, the design and development won't have much to do with Derby.

 

[Energy]

As I understand it, the weak link on Aventra has been the software TMS, which I'm pretty sure did not come from Derby.

It came from the Bombardier offices in Bangalore, India.

A modern train is full of complex software, which can be written anywhere.

Yes and no, when Bombardier moved software overseas they lost a lot of experience. Cheap overseas software houses tend to send bad code back, which increases technical debt. The money saved decreases when you have to do the same work twice.

To be clear there are a lot of great programmers overseas in India, but when a company moves its development overseas to save money it is going for cheap programmers, not good ones.

All the UK manufacturing sites are essentially assembly shops with the design, development and software being done elsewhere.

Kind of, CAF and Siemens' sites are assembly with bodyshells and components from elsewhere, Hitachi can now produce bodyshells, and Alstom Litchurch Lane also handles some design work.

All these companies are multinationals and use UK suppliers, you'll struggle to find a European train nowadays built and designed in one country.

 

[fgwrich]

It came from the Bombardier offices in Bangalore, India.

Yes and no, when Bombardier moved software overseas they lost a lot of experience. Cheap overseas software houses tend to send bad code back, which increases technical debt. The money saved decreases when you have to do the same work twice.

Kind of, CAF and Siemens' sites are assembly with bodyshells and components from elsewhere, Hitachi can now produce bodyshells, and Alstom Litchurch Lane also handles some design work.

All these companies are multinationals and use UK suppliers, you'll struggle to find a European train nowadays built and designed in one country.

You have to wonder how deeply this move has cost Bombardier / Alstom with regards to the software for the entire Aventra family. The fact that what, 4 years after the first 701 was supposed to enter traffic, none are still in service and a good proportion haven't even been accepted yet.

Siemens is an interesting one compared to some of the others actually - remember the diagram they produced for the TSGN 700 Desiro City contract. The assembly may have been in Germany, but the number of UK components was one of the highest, if not the highest, for a new train for some years. Even a lot of Siemens rolling stock uses cab modules assembled in the North East, then shipped out to Germany.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The software move to India was costly. The down time in software updates that requite testing on the line itself before full update aswell as communication delays is still one of the issues the Class 345 has as much bugs as it does. Initially before being put on the Aventra software the 345s if I remember correct where using a frankenstein software mashup from the older electrostar tms software.

 

[Roast Veg]

As I understand it, the weak link on Aventra has been the software TMS, which I'm pretty sure did not come from Derby.
A modern train is full of complex software, which can be written anywhere.
All the UK manufacturing sites are essentially assembly shops with the design, development and software being done elsewhere.

Yes, the decision to move software to Bangalore was taken (I believe) back in Bombardier days.

It came from the Bombardier offices in Bangalore, India.

Yes and no, when Bombardier moved software overseas they lost a lot of experience. Cheap overseas software houses tend to send bad code back, which increases technical debt. The money saved decreases when you have to do the same work twice.

To be clear there are a lot of great programmers overseas in India, but when a company moves its development overseas to save money it is going for cheap programmers, not good ones.

Speaking from personal experience, it is an absolute nightmare to integrate software in one timezone into hardware in another, no matter how good the developers are. Combine that with a "write it fast, get it shipped, don't bother reusing it later" attitude to software development that presents in all low-cost software houses globally and the result is manifest.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The obvious answer then is that to be ahead of the game, one of the manufacturers and why the hell should it not be Derby need to bring the whole thing back to the UK from initial concept design to final testing commissioning and roll out via every other stage of the process. We've done it before in the past

The cost issues quite honestly don't stack up for me, look at the fact that we've got sightings full of seven zero one units that have not turned a wheel in anger and could very well end up being scrapped at this rate

 

[Energy]

Speaking from personal experience, it is an absolute nightmare to integrate software in one timezone into hardware in another, no matter how good the developers are. Combine that with a "write it fast, get it shipped, don't bother reusing it later" attitude to software development that presents in all low-cost software houses globally and the result is manifest.

Agreed, code not being reused is very common in cheap software houses and might explain why some Aventras move and other don't.

The obvious answer then is that to be ahead of the game, one of the manufacturers and why the hell should it not be Derby need to bring the whole thing back to the UK from initial concept design to final testing commissioning and roll out via every other stage of the process. We've done it before in the past

Global supply chains are fine but need management. Bombardier's failings is management failing to understand that cheap software houses often produce bad code and timezone differences do not help.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Derby (by itself) can't hope to keep up/catch up with global development on all rail systems from metros to high speed.
Derby, for good or ill, has concentrated recently on regional/commuter EMUs (with major components, eg traction packages, from elsewhere).
Alstom (group) will be the bidders for any new contract, and they can call on a huge range of product lines and skills across the new group.

 

[Snow1964]

You have to wonder how deeply this move has cost Bombardier / Alstom with regards to the software for the entire Aventra family. The fact that what, 4 years after the first 701 was supposed to enter traffic, none are still in service and a good proportion haven't even been accepted yet.

Rock Rail South West Accounts show over £128m in Liquidated damages for late delivery of 701s (and will probably be more when 2023 added), getting on for £200m

Of course software isn 100% of the delay, sloppy build quality is part of it.

 

[Energy]

Of course software isn 100% of the delay, sloppy build quality is part of it.

Covid led to Bombardier dropping QC on the 701 production lines, as such each unit had hundreds of faults which Alstom has mostly rectified.

Derby (by itself) can't hope to keep up/catch up with global development on all rail systems from metros to high speed.
Derby, for good or ill, has concentrated recently on regional/commuter EMUs (with major components, eg traction packages, from elsewhere).
Alstom (group) will be the bidders for any new contract, and they can call on a huge range of product lines and skills across the new group.

Agreed, it isn't realistic for Derby to be an expert in all rail vehicles, but keeping significant design there is important for issues related to UK trains, such as the UK's track quality.

 

[507020]

The software move to India was costly. The down time in software updates that requite testing on the line itself before full update aswell as communication delays is still one of the issues the Class 345 has as much bugs as it does. Initially before being put on the Aventra software the 345s if I remember correct where using a frankenstein software mashup from the older electrostar tms software.

Speaking from personal experience, it is an absolute nightmare to integrate software in one timezone into hardware in another, no matter how good the developers are. Combine that with a "write it fast, get it shipped, don't bother reusing it later" attitude to software development that presents in all low-cost software houses globally and the result is manifest.

Agreed, code being reused is very common in cheap software houses and might explain why some Aventras move and other don't.
Global supply chains are fine but need management. Bombardier's failings is management failing to understand that cheap software houses often produce bad code and timezone differences do not help.

But the questions are, does Alstom use a robust, well written code base, including the reuse of reliable code in its own products, unlike the former Bombardier’s and since the takeover by Alstom, given that it evidently doesn’t work, how much chance is there of Alstom pulling the plug on this worthless outsourcing experiment and replacing the software on the Aventras or any new build stock based on something of it’s own that works?

I’ve been told that the Desiros still run on Windows 3.1, so would the Siemens attitude to reusing well written code that works be very different?

 

[NSEWonderer]

But the questions are, does Alstom use a robust, well written code base, including the reuse of reliable code in its own products, unlike the former Bombardier’s and since the takeover by Alstom, given that it evidently doesn’t work, how much chance is there of Alstom pulling the plug on this worthless outsourcing experiment and replacing the software on the Aventras or any new build stock based on something of it’s own that works?

I’ve been told that the Desiros still run on Windows 3.1, so would the Siemens attitude to reusing well written code that works be very different?

Well the main reason for such outsourcing was costs I assume so the real question is are the delay penalties and threat of more losses in the right amount to force the above and proper change you mention.

Ontop of that how much would it cost and time was take to reinstate an in-house software spartment and Co again as I assume they got rid of most of that department and staff.