Pre-Court Settlement Offer...How likely is a successful appeal?

[Bola]

Whilst I fully understand that it is my responsibility to arrive at the station with enough time to purchase a ticket for the journey, things don't always go plan, and on this occasion I was running late. The train was pulling up to the platform when we got there, and the ticket office was closed, so me and my partner were left with 2 options - wait an hour for the next train to arrive, or purchase a ticket on the train. Being frequent users of the trains, and due to never experiencing any difficulty or issues with purchasing tickets on the train, we decided to board. We were unaware that a ticket dispensing machine had recently been installed. The journey was Camborne to Falmouth Town.

Part of the way into our journey we noticed someone on our carriage having a disagreement with whom we thought was a ticket conductor, but we would later discover that he was in fact a revenue protection inspector. From what I could hear from the conversation, this person was in a similar situation to us, and had arrived at the station late. It was at this point that I decided to purchase our tickets online using the trainline app, to show that I had intended to pay for our journey.

I would just like to clarify here that the tickets were purchased before we were approached by the revenue protection inspector. Unfortunately this was a waste of money, as the inspector would not even acknowledge the fact that we had tickets.

We were then pulled to one side at Truro station, read the riot act, and told that we would probably receive a fine in the post. He then printed us out some 'free' tickets for the remainder of our journey, although I'm not sure why, as the tickets I purchased 30 minuted prior to this were valid for the journey.

We both received letters in the post a couple of weeks later. They have requested me to pay £107.50, for the out of court settlement. They state in the letter that "This amount is made up of £7.50 for the outstanding fare, and our charges which are a contribution towards the cost of recovering what you owe." However, my partner has been requested to pay £87.50. I'm not sure why there is a £20 difference in costs for 2 people in the exact same situation.

So I have 2 questions really...

1. Is it worth me appealing the fine, based on the fact that I had purchased tickets?

2. Failing the appeal, would I be able to get my charge reduced to the same amount as my partners?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[ainsworth74]

So I have 2 questions really...

1. Is it worth me appealing the fine, based on the fact that I had purchased tickets?

2. Failing the appeal, would I be able to get my charge reduced to the same amount as my partners?

1. I'm not sure that there would be any grounds to do so. When using tickets via your mobile phone you need to activate them and they need to be activated before the train departs the station you're joining at. The time of activation shown would clearly be after the train departed meaning that you would not have complied with that requirement. The argument would then become "They only bought and activated tickets because they saw an inspector. If the inspector hadn't have been there they would not have bought tickets at all!". I feel that it might be a tough argument to counter and still wouldn't get around the fact that you did not comply with the requirement of a mobile ticket.

2. You could certainly ask for an explanation as to why the amounts for the same incident are different. They may, however, either withdraw the offer and proceed to prosecution or they could even make a revised offer to your partner increasing theirs!

 

[cuccir]

It's important to note that - based on what you've told us - the train company would likely have enough evidence to prosecute you in court if they wanted to. Note the phrase 'out of court settlement' - this is a fee that you're paying them to cover their costs, in return for an agreement that they won't proceed to prosecution. A prosecution would likely cost you more money and time and, if they went for the more severe of the legislation open to them, could result in a criminal record.

There's no formal appeals process for out of court settlements as it is simply agreement between you and GWR that you're both free to enter into or not.

I'd back-up what ainsworth74 says about the train company making the argument that you only purchased the tickets because you saw the inspector - this is exactly what your behaviour looks like; there's a long history of rail companies trying to tackle people who attempt to travel for free, and will only buy a ticket when proactively asked to or when they see an RPI or barriers ("pay when challenged"). I'm not saying that's what you did, but the actions you took are exactly the same as someone who might have been trying to do that.

If it were me, I would pay the fees. Unless there's some mitigation or the train company have made a mistake somewhere, it sounds like this would be an easy prosecution for the train company and while the £20 discrepancy is a bit weird it is probably not worth reflecting on too much.

 

[some bloke]

the ticket office was closed...We were unaware that a ticket dispensing machine had recently been installed.

I wouldn't want to encourage the OP to take an unnecessary risk, and acknowledge the point about the way the online purchase looks.

Apologies if this has been fully taken into account in earlier replies, but just to clarify:

If it could be established that a new machine was not obviously apparent to people going directly to the train as they have done legitimately in the past when the ticket office was closed, would that be a reasonable explanation?

Or would suspicion aroused by the online purchase mean it's not worth taking the risk?

 

[cuccir]

If it could be established that a new machine was not obviously apparent to people going directly to the train as they have done legitimately in the past when the ticket office was closed, would that be a reasonable explanation?

Or would suspicion aroused by the online purchase mean it's not worth taking the risk?

It's a fair question.

If it's possible to access the platform without passing the machine, and there's no sign saying that it's there, then potentially someone would be able to make the case that it was reasonable to miss it.

A couple of howevers:
1. If someone was to write to the train company and make this case, they might accept it and back down, or they might try their chances in court. It would depend I suspect on how reasonable it was to miss the machine, on how new the machine was, on the tone of the letter, on the strength of their evidence etc. I wouldn't like to speculate too much on waht the outcome would be as I think it would be very dependent on the specificiies of the case
2. Yes, the presence of the online purchase does complicate matters somewhat and might make it more likely that the train company would go down the court option

If I were making the appeal, I'd get evidence as to the visibility of the ticket machine - if it really is hidden away then I'd make a lot of that in any appeal.

 

[Clip]

If it could be established that a new machine was not obviously apparent to people going directly to the train as they have done legitimately in the past when the ticket office was closed, would that be a reasonable explanation?

No because they have already admitted that they were running late and got on the train - whether they saw a TVM or even an open ticket window doesn't matter because if they had stopped to buy one then they would've missed their train and had to wait an hour.

 

[Bola]

Thanks very much for all of your advice.

I've decided to pay the fine. Even though it wasn't my intention to ride the train without paying, I can understand that it may appear this way, and I have no real evidence to back up my case.

Oh well, lesson learnt.

 

[furlong]

Even after paying it, so everything is sorted out, there is nothing to be lost in writing a polite letter to the customer services department to see if they will agree the notification of the change and the signage was inadequate and refund some or all of what you paid.

 

[RPI]

I don't go west very often but I do know that the Ticket Vending Machine at Camborne is situated by the only entrance to the up platform, you can't access that platform without walking at most ten feet away from it. It's also clearly signed!

 

[maniacmartin]

Your opening paragraph isn't very convincing. If you were running late, you wouldn't have had any chance to use the ticket office even if it was open, or the TVM (self-service machine) even if you had spotted it, without waiting a whole hour.

One thing that might possibly convince the Train Company that you weren't chancing it is if you have a bank or credit card statement showing previous regular purchases from the station of the amount that the ticket costs.

 

[cjmillsnun]

By paying the administrative settlement, you've done the right thing. The matter is now closed as far as GWR are concerned.

If this is a regular journey it may be worth considering a season ticket. If not, buy tickets before travel and make a journey to the station to pick them up the night before. I'm always running late in the morning so make a point of doing that and putting the tickets in my pocket so that I know I have them.

 

[6Gman]

Or if you do end up on a train ticketless search out the Guard in order to make payment asap. Thus avoiding any accusation of intent to avoid payment.