Pre-Nationisation coaching stock in blue and grey.

[Strathclyder]

This was posted in @Cowley's previous thread on this subject linked in post #27; it depicts a Western with a B/G Hawksworth coach directly behind.



The Brighton Belle (5-BEL or Class 403) in B/G has been mentioned a few times, here is a pic found on Flickr (from the Gordon Edgar collection) dated December 1970. It's perhaps sacrilege to say this, but I rather like it.

Brighton Belle

I only ever managed to point a camera at the 'Brighton Belle' on one occasion. This image was promptly rejected when I received it from the processors, however modern technology has helped to revive what is now a historic image. 'Brighton Belle' '5-BEL' units 3051 and 3052 pass Clapham Junction...

www.flickr.com

Though in terms of age, I don't think anything comes close to DE320104E - an ex-Great Eastern Railway 6-wheeler dating from 1898 - so well before the grouping, never mind nationalization! It's last notable use was as a generator van for the Cinema Coach (DM395017M, itself a former LNWR sleeper coach originally dating from at least 1909). Scrapped in 1971 apparently. Robert Carroll of Flickr has 2 pics of this incredible survivor, one being of it with said Cinema Coach at Waterloo dating from August 1966:

DE320104E_Wolverton_c1968

DE320104E at Wolverton works, c1968.

www.flickr.com

DE320104E_DM395017M_Wloo_8-66

Cinema coach DM395017M and its accompanying generator van DE320104E at Waterloo, August 1966.

www.flickr.com

 

[AdamWW]

Though in terms of age, I don't think anything comes close to DE320104E - an ex-Great Eastern Railway 6-wheeler dating from 1898 - so well before the grouping, never mind nationalization!

And if anybody fancies a model of one, last time I looked they were going pretty cheap (relatively speaking) in the Hornby Black Friday sale.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Though in terms of age, I don't think anything comes close to DE320104E - an ex-Great Eastern Railway 6-wheeler dating from 1898 - so well before the grouping, never mind nationalization! It's last notable use was as a generator van for the Cinema Coach (DM395017M, itself a former LNWR sleeper coach originally dating from at least 1909). Scrapped in 1971 apparently. Robert Carroll of Flickr has 2 pics of this incredible survivor, one being of it with said Cinema Coach at Waterloo dating from August 1966:

DE320104E_Wolverton_c1968

DE320104E at Wolverton works, c1968.

www.flickr.com

DE320104E_DM395017M_Wloo_8-66

Cinema coach DM395017M and its accompanying generator van DE320104E at Waterloo, August 1966.

www.flickr.com

The GE coach is the one I mentioned up-thread in connection with the ex LNWR cinema coach; I was wracking my brains about its origins, mis-remembering it as one from a Southern company. It had the W-irons outside the sole bar and springs behind them and generally looked ancient, much more so than DM395017.
My understanding is that the people at Qainton consider DM395017 is so fragile that it can't be moved. In the Cinema days of it - and the ex G.E. 6 wheeler - it was moved between locations in e.c.s. trains at Class 3 speeds...

 

[Towers]

Absolutely fascinating thread!

 

[WesternLancer]

This was posted in @Cowley's previous thread on this subject linked in post #27; it depicts a Western with a B/G Hawksworth coach directly behind.

View attachment 169979

The Brighton Belle (5-BEL or Class 403) in B/G has been mentioned a few times, here is a pic found on Flickr (from the Gordon Edgar collection) dated December 1970. It's perhaps sacrilege to say this, but I rather like it.

Brighton Belle

I only ever managed to point a camera at the 'Brighton Belle' on one occasion. This image was promptly rejected when I received it from the processors, however modern technology has helped to revive what is now a historic image. 'Brighton Belle' '5-BEL' units 3051 and 3052 pass Clapham Junction...

www.flickr.com

Though in terms of age, I don't think anything comes close to DE320104E - an ex-Great Eastern Railway 6-wheeler dating from 1898 - so well before the grouping, never mind nationalization! It's last notable use was as a generator van for the Cinema Coach (DM395017M, itself a former LNWR sleeper coach originally dating from at least 1909). Scrapped in 1971 apparently. Robert Carroll of Flickr has 2 pics of this incredible survivor, one being of it with said Cinema Coach at Waterloo dating from August 1966:

DE320104E_Wolverton_c1968

DE320104E at Wolverton works, c1968.

www.flickr.com

DE320104E_DM395017M_Wloo_8-66

Cinema coach DM395017M and its accompanying generator van DE320104E at Waterloo, August 1966.

www.flickr.com

great selection of images - well done for locating them.

 

[Strathclyder]

The GE coach is the one I mentioned up-thread in connection with the ex LNWR cinema coach; I was wracking my brains about its origins, mis-remembering it as one from a Southern company. It had the W-irons outside the sole bar and springs behind them and generally looked ancient, much more so than DM395017.

Ah, so it was, missed your previous post when I skimmed through the thread initally. Just thought I'd provide some images and a bit of background.

My understanding is that the people at Qainton consider DM395017 is so fragile that it can't be moved. In the Cinema days of it - and the ex G.E. 6 wheeler - it was moved between locations in e.c.s. trains at Class 3 speeds...

A shame really, considering it's rich history. Can't be that many LNWR coaches of that vintage (or generally) left either.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Ah, so it was, missed your previous post when I skimmed through the thread initally. Just thought I'd provide some images and a bit of background.

Your comments & attachment added to mine, wasn't criticising just mentioning that you had identified the coach I was hazy about. Very useful how different posts build up a fuller picture and add info'. Can't have too much.

 

[Strathclyder]

Absolutely fascinating thread!

Fascinating subject generally imho. Given the scope, longevity and wide application of BR Blue & Blue+Grey, several deep-dive threads on it are possible (firsts & lasts, oldest, newest and most unusual piece of rolling stock to receive it etc).

great selection of images - well done for locating them.

Not a problem. On this subject, I found a couple more pics of the aforementioned LNER coaches in Blue+Grey and posted them on another thread a while back, will go look for them and link them back here if I can find them again.

Your comments & attachment added to mine, wasn't criticising just mentioning that you had identified the coach I was hazy about. Very useful how different posts build up a fuller picture and add info'. Can't have too much.

Ah fair enough. As I say, this subject deeply fascinates me (having grown up well outwith the BR era generally, never mind BR Blue) and you're quite right in that one can't have too much info.

 

[Sun Chariot]

And if anybody fancies a model of one, last time I looked they were going pretty cheap (relatively speaking) in the Hornby Black Friday sale.

I thought you were kidding; until...

R40328 BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7

R40328, BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7, Hornby, Coaches & Coach Packs, 1:76 Scale 00 Gauge, OO

uk.hornby.com

Yes - Hornby actually has the blue & grey 'un

 

[Beebman]

When the Southern converted loco hauled Mk1s to the VEP/TC sets sequences of running numbers were converted (presumably to get absolutely-identical batches). Many of the target coaches were allocated to other Regions, and conversely the ones already on the S.R. weren't in the series, so there was a lot of inter-regional swaps. It seems that the Southern didn't have enough Mk 1s to transfer, so that some Bulleids were also transferred. They were repainted maroon, possibly before transfer. As they weren't repainted maroon until transferred it's possible that this was after the change to B&G but possibly dons as not to draw attention to them.

The Blood and Custard website has a list of Bulleid TSOs which were transferred to the Eastern and Scottish regions about two-thirds of the way down the page at this link:

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-CoachingSets-BulleidSO1462-1506.html

It gives the dates of the maroon repaints and the transfers - they were indeed all done before transfer with all but one being done before the end of 1965 (the final one was repainted on 14/01/1966) so I'd say these were done before the general start of B&G.

About the same time, I saw a green Mk2 FO in a Deltic-hauled train at Newcastle presumably after transfer as surplus by the S.R. and this would have been built after the changeover, but possibly in the old livery to avoid a clash with the rest of the S.R. fleet.

I've definitely seen a colour photo of a Woodhead Line train at Manchester Piccadilly in 1968/9 with a mixture of maroon and B&G Mk1s plus a green BSK.

 

[AdamWW]

I thought you were kidding; until...

R40328 BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7

R40328, BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7, Hornby, Coaches & Coach Packs, 1:76 Scale 00 Gauge, OO

uk.hornby.com

Yes - Hornby actually has the blue & grey 'un

Oh yes. And it's even better than that - another manufacturer came out with a rival version. Though their interpretation of blue and grey was a bit more blue and pale blue.

 

[Strathclyder]

I thought you were kidding; until...

R40328 BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7

R40328, BR InterCity, 6 Wheel Generator Coach - Era 7, Hornby, Coaches & Coach Packs, 1:76 Scale 00 Gauge, OO

uk.hornby.com

Yes - Hornby actually has the blue & grey 'un

So hyothetically (if I had a model layout), I could run a Blue Western or 47 (or most other period correct diesels; a two-tone green 29 sounds most appealing) with a rake of B/G Mk1s with this as the generator vehicle. That never happened in real life ofc, but such rules wouldn't stop me! lol

 

[AdamWW]

So hyothetically (if I had a model layout), I could run a Blue Western or 47 (or most other period correct diesels; a two-tone green 29 sounds most appealing) with a rake of B/G Mk1s with this as the generator vehicle. That never happened in real life ofc, but such rules wouldn't stop me! lol

Getting a bit off topic now, there's always rule 1 of modelling: "It's your (hypothetical) railway so you can do what you like."

 

[Strathclyder]

Getting a bit off topic now, there's always rule 1 of modelling: "It's your (hypothetical) railway so you can do what you like."

Too true!

 

[Merle Haggard]

The Blood and Custard website has a list of Bulleid TSOs which were transferred to the Eastern and Scottish regions about two-thirds of the way down the page at this link:

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-CoachingSets-BulleidSO1462-1506.html

It gives the dates of the maroon repaints and the transfers - they were indeed all done before transfer with all but one being done before the end of 1965 (the final one was repainted on 14/01/1966) so I'd say these were done before the general start of B&G.


I've definitely seen a colour photo of a Woodhead Line train at Manchester Piccadilly in 1968/9 with a mixture of maroon and B&G Mk1s plus a green BSK.

Thanks. Bearing in mind the REP and TC sets entered service around 7/67 then it would be reasonable for the donor coaches to be rounded up in late '65 thinking about it, so before B&G became standard.

Yes, I have a hazy memory of green BSKs being around on the L.M., too - more noticeable because of the area of green around the brake end, and usually at the end of the train of course, so eye-catching as the train ran in. May have just been standard inter-Regional transfers, there were a lot then.

The L.M.S. Coaches book says that the only L.M.S. design day stock painted B&G were the Porthole BSKs; I though I saw Porthole CKs but I might well be mistaken.

After years of absolutely total maroon (the last crimson & cream I remember seeing was spring 1960) these new liveries seemed very exciting - but maybe we were easily pleased!

 

[Beebman]

The L.M.S. Coaches book says that the only L.M.S. design day stock painted B&G were the Porthole BSKs; I though I saw Porthole CKs but I might well be mistaken.

Here's a link to a photo of B&G Porthole CK M24635M:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/34575086940/

And one to a pic of B&G Porthole SK M13167M:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/34151857223/

(the source of both photos is given as 53A Models of Hull Collection)

 

[Helvellyn]

I think the few Pullman Car Company vehicles that got reverse blue and grey (complete with BR Alphabet numbers/branding) looked odd. The modified blue and grey with some lining at least made concessions to the vehicles.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/13252443825/

 

[Ashley Hill]

I think the few Pullman Car Company vehicles that got reverse blue and grey (complete with BR Alphabet numbers/branding) looked odd. The modified blue and grey with some lining at least made concessions to the vehicles.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/13252443825/

That looks awful.

 

[Mr. SW]

This popped up in my YouTube recommendations. Look out for the reversed livery on the Golden Arrow... (Towards the end)

Video of Southern Region EMUs

 

[Strathclyder]

I think the few Pullman Car Company vehicles that got reverse blue and grey (complete with BR Alphabet numbers/branding) looked odd. The modified blue and grey with some lining at least made concessions to the vehicles.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/13252443825/

That's certainly, erm, different. The standard arrangement on the two coaches behind suits them far better imho, even if it does emphasize their age.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Here's a link to a photo of B&G Porthole CK M24635M:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/34575086940/

And one to a pic of B&G Porthole SK M13167M:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/34151857223/

(the source of both photos is given as 53A Models of Hull Collection)

Thanks.
Perhaps sadly I have a good memory for numbers and I nearly quoted M24635M as being B&G from memory but, reading the LMS Coaches book, which stated only BSKs were done, & thought I was mistaken. I have a memory of travelling on an AM10 on the Down Slow in late 1968 and being overtaken by a down 'Inter City' with an immaculate 24635 in the formation and it seems that this memory is correct after all.
Remembering it so clearly does suggest that there weren't many about, possibly the only CK. But the ones that were about were in front-line service, on Inter City trains to and from Euston.

 

[yorksrob]

That appears to simply be a case of NSE moquette being made available to preserved railways. The coaches won't have had that moquette in service.

I've seen some inauthentic applications of moquette before, but that takes the biscuit

This was posted in @Cowley's previous thread on this subject linked in post #27; it depicts a Western with a B/G Hawksworth coach directly behind.

View attachment 169979

The Brighton Belle (5-BEL or Class 403) in B/G has been mentioned a few times, here is a pic found on Flickr (from the Gordon Edgar collection) dated December 1970. It's perhaps sacrilege to say this, but I rather like it.

Brighton Belle

I only ever managed to point a camera at the 'Brighton Belle' on one occasion. This image was promptly rejected when I received it from the processors, however modern technology has helped to revive what is now a historic image. 'Brighton Belle' '5-BEL' units 3051 and 3052 pass Clapham Junction...

www.flickr.com

Though in terms of age, I don't think anything comes close to DE320104E - an ex-Great Eastern Railway 6-wheeler dating from 1898 - so well before the grouping, never mind nationalization! It's last notable use was as a generator van for the Cinema Coach (DM395017M, itself a former LNWR sleeper coach originally dating from at least 1909). Scrapped in 1971 apparently. Robert Carroll of Flickr has 2 pics of this incredible survivor, one being of it with said Cinema Coach at Waterloo dating from August 1966:

DE320104E_Wolverton_c1968

DE320104E at Wolverton works, c1968.

www.flickr.com

DE320104E_DM395017M_Wloo_8-66

Cinema coach DM395017M and its accompanying generator van DE320104E at Waterloo, August 1966.

www.flickr.com

Those look magnificent. Shame they didn't make it to sectorisation.

 

[D6130]

Thanks.
Perhaps sadly I have a good memory for numbers and I nearly quoted M24635M as being B&G from memory but, reading the LMS Coaches book, which stated only BSKs were done, & thought I was mistaken. I have a memory of travelling on an AM10 on the Down Slow in late 1968 and being overtaken by a down 'Inter City' with an immaculate 24635 in the formation and it seems that this memory is correct after all.
Remembering it so clearly does suggest that there weren't many about, possibly the only CK. But the ones that were about were in front-line service, on Inter City trains to and from Euston.

Does that mean that the 'portholes' had been fitted with ETH....or were they only used on such services in the Summer months?

 

[Beebman]

Does that mean that the 'portholes' had been fitted with ETH....or were they only used on such services in the Summer months?

On enlarging the Flickr photo of CK M24635M it does say on the coach end 'Dual Heated' and I think that's an ETH cable visible on it?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Does that mean that the 'portholes' had been fitted with ETH....or were they only used on such services in the Summer months?

From memory there were LMS design coaches fitted with electric heating on the West Coast A.C. lines, not sure whether it was just the 'Portholes'.
As an aside, there was some budgetary problem with fitting coaching stock with E.T.H.. It seems to have been confined to the A.C. lines but may have intended to be more widespread and cut back - some Mk I coaches on East Coast bore the following initials on the end below the code; 'DHEHNO' - which confused many, but was decoded as Dual Heated Electric Heating Not Operative. The cynics (who, me?) though that this meant the budget had run out after they bought the electric radiators...

 

[Sun Chariot]

some Mk I coaches on East Coast bore the following initials on the end below the code; 'DHEHNO' - which confused many, but was decoded as Dual Heated Electric Heating Not Operative. The cynics (who, me?) though that this meant the budget had run out after they bought the electric radiators...

Every day is new learning on here - brilliant, many thanks for sharing. I hadn't realised the blue-grey Portholes were DH.
I wonder if a 4mm transfer - for C1 restriction carriage ends, with DHEHNO - exists...

 

[36270k]

From memory there were LMS design coaches fitted with electric heating on the West Coast A.C. lines, not sure whether it was just the 'Portholes'.
As an aside, there was some budgetary problem with fitting coaching stock with E.T.H.. It seems to have been confined to the A.C. lines but may have intended to be more widespread and cut back - some Mk I coaches on East Coast bore the following initials on the end below the code; 'DHEHNO' - which confused many, but was decoded as Dual Heated Electric Heating Not Operative. The cynics (who, me?) though that this meant the budget had run out after they bought the electric radiators...

Remember often seeing Vacuum braked MK1 SK's at Paddington in the early 1970's labelled Dual Heated ( Electric Heat Not Operative ).
I believe that the explanation was that the vehicles were built with dual heating but the ETH was never comissioned as the WR had no ETH locos at the time.
The coaches later had jumper cables fitted and had the ETH activated when the Class 50's arrived

 

[Gloster]

By chance I came across a reference on the Cornwall Railways Society’s site that three Hawksworth SK made it in to blue and grey: W1719W, W2135W and W2283W. They appear to have gone by early 1968.

 

[nlogax]

Absolutely fascinating thread!

I concur. Love seeing ancient stock being all swept up into BR's new corporate image. Blue/grey was the great leveller!

 

[matchmaker]

Thanks.
Perhaps sadly I have a good memory for numbers and I nearly quoted M24635M as being B&G from memory but, reading the LMS Coaches book, which stated only BSKs were done, & thought I was mistaken. I have a memory of travelling on an AM10 on the Down Slow in late 1968 and being overtaken by a down 'Inter City' with an immaculate 24635 in the formation and it seems that this memory is correct after all.
Remembering it so clearly does suggest that there weren't many about, possibly the only CK. But the ones that were about were in front-line service, on Inter City trains to and from Euston.

24635 was also dual heated.

From memory there were LMS design coaches fitted with electric heating on the West Coast A.C. lines, not sure whether it was just the 'Portholes'.
As an aside, there was some budgetary problem with fitting coaching stock with E.T.H.. It seems to have been confined to the A.C. lines but may have intended to be more widespread and cut back - some Mk I coaches on East Coast bore the following initials on the end below the code; 'DHEHNO' - which confused many, but was decoded as Dual Heated Electric Heating Not Operative. The cynics (who, me?) though that this meant the budget had run out after they bought the electric radiators...

The 12 wheeled 1st class sleepers certainly had ETH. Whether or not the 8 wheeled second class ones had, I don't know.