Preserved EMUs and alternative power.

[Ashley Hill]

After reading the thread about the possible Bluebell extension I started wondering, could a 3rd rail EMU such as the 2BIL be converted to run on battery power?

There has been much written throughout the Forums about modern battery technology for new trains and their ability to run for miles on a single charge.

Could similar be achieved in preservation?

 

[Cowley]

After reading the thread about the possible Bluebell extension I started wondering,could a 3rd rail EMU such as the 2BIL be converted to run on battery power? There has been much written throughout the Forums about modern battery technology for new trains and their ability to run for miles on a single charge. Could similar be achieved in preservation?

That’s funny, I was actually thinking about starting a similar thread.

I know we’ve got some clever electrical experts on here so I’d be curious to know. I was wondering if something like an MLV packed with batteries might be a good starting point as a form of propulsion? Mainly because it wouldn’t involve drastically altering a more historic vehicle like the 2-BIL or even a 4VEP.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't sticking a 33 on the end the classic way to power a Southern EMU in preservation?

 

[Cowley]

Isn't sticking a 33 on the end the classic way to power a Southern EMU in preservation?

Only if you’ve got the correct type of 33 and it’s mainline registered (if we’re talking about the Bluebell’s potential extension).

 

[JonathanH]

This of course is where 769s will come into their own, as preserved 319s with a generating unit.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I just used the 2BIL as an example as it would be ideal and very prototypical on a Bluebell extension to Ardingly. There are many EMUs in various states of repair standing idle where there could be technology available to have them mobile without being dragged.

 

[AM9]

I just used the 2BIL as an example as it would be ideal and very prototypical on a Bluebell extension to Ardingly. There are many EMUs in various states of repair standing idle where there could be technology available to have them mobile without being dragged.

Itb would be nice to see 306017 tarted up and running again.

 

[Graham H]

That’s funny, I was actually thinking about starting a similar thread.

I know we’ve got some clever electrical experts on here so I’d be curious to know. I was wondering if something like an MLV packed with batteries might be a good starting point as a form of propulsion? Mainly because it wouldn’t involve drastically altering a more historic vehicle like the 2-BIL or even a 4VEP.

MLV plus EPB ran at the MidHants recently didnt it. I think a class 33 helped but at least part of the trip was all electric. MLV + Cep would be prototypical based on the Kent boat trains

 

[gc4946]

Eden Valley Railway uses its 2 MLVs to power one of their 4CEPs and has done that on and off since 2006.

Eden Valley Railway, Warcop, Cumbria The Cumbrian Boat Train

Eden Valley Railway page about the operation of Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and a 4-CEP in a recreation of the Folkestone Boat Trains in May 2019 in Warcop in Cumbria on the Eden Valley Railway

www.evr-cumbria.org.uk

 

[Graham H]

Eden Valley Railway uses its 2 MLVs to power one of their 4CEPs and has done that on and off since 2006.

Eden Valley Railway, Warcop, Cumbria The Cumbrian Boat Train

Eden Valley Railway page about the operation of Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and a 4-CEP in a recreation of the Folkestone Boat Trains in May 2019 in Warcop in Cumbria on the Eden Valley Railway

www.evr-cumbria.org.uk

From the sounds on that video I assume the MLV battery power is actually reaching the CEP rather than just the MLV acting as a push pull unit for a dead EMU ??

 

[43096]

MLV plus EPB ran at the MidHants recently didnt it.

It did! For part of the time it ran as 2EPB + MLV + MLV + 33/1, with the 33 powering from the rear in true Southern style.

 

[Ashley Hill]

From the sounds on that video I assume the MLV battery power is actually reaching the CEP rather than just the MLV acting as a push pull unit for a dead EMU ??

Ah,the happy thump of the compressors,that takes me back. This is good to see.

 

[gc4946]

Eden Valley Railway uses its 2 MLVs to power one of their 4CEPs and has done that on and off since 2006.

Eden Valley Railway, Warcop, Cumbria The Cumbrian Boat Train

Eden Valley Railway page about the operation of Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and a 4-CEP in a recreation of the Folkestone Boat Trains in May 2019 in Warcop in Cumbria on the Eden Valley Railway

www.evr-cumbria.org.uk

Although most MLVs survive, some have parts missing, however several 2EPB motor brake coaches which ended up in departmental service without their driving trailer composites survive (also possibly the ex-2HAP DMBS converted for Gatwick Airport luggage van use as well)

BR 65379 2-EPB EMU: Driving Motor Brake Second Open built 1955

BR 65302 2-EPB EMU Driving Motor Brake Second Open built 1955

BR 65304 2-EPB EMU: Driving Motor Brake Second Open built 1955

BR 65382 2-EPB EMU: Driving Motor Brake Second Open built 1955

all of which could be fitted with banks of batteries to power EMUs

 

[D365]

It will be worth paying attention to the Class 483 battery conversions.

 

[Jagdpanther]

It is certainly possible. At the North Tyneside Railway, a preserved ex-Harton Colliery electric loco has been run using a connected coal wagon filled with batteries.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It is certainly possible. At the North Tyneside Railway, a preserved ex-Harton Colliery electric loco has been run using a connected coal wagon filled with batteries.

That’s interesting,it proves it can be done. I’m not suggesting hooking up the 82 to a CCT full of batteries,but theoretically could it be done with an EMU ? I presume all early ones must have been quite simple electrically.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Ok. So at present a couple of railways do use EMUs but usually hauled by

A. A MLV - Eden Valley, More recently mid hants diesel Gala
B. Hauled by a diesel of some form - Spa Valley with 3CIG 1497, East Kent with 4COR Motor end and 4VEP trailer

the other option is to run a 4-TC hauled by a CL33 which is what Swanage Plan to do (https://www.facebook.com/SwanageTCgroup/) slight OT i know.

At present the 400 Series group (Owners of 4VOP 3905) have a batteries included project which currently they are converting MBSO 62364 from 1394 (http://www.400series.co.uk/). When i last checked the vechile was still being worked on at Ramparts.

As for the 4SUB 4732. It is one of our objectives to "Design and installation of bi-mode technology to make the 4-SUB unit 4732 self propelled". At present our main aim is to get the 4SUB cosmetically good. The inital plan is carraige 12796 will be the 1st to be done (as it is near the exit ramp). On this subject the work will NOT be carried out as Margate as the agreement we have is storage only. (https://www.hett.org.uk/).

The main issue with the above or to be honest all EMUs and alternative power is down to cost at the end of the day. It was part of the reason why the HETT was setup in the 1st place.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thanks @4SubAsociation for replying. It’s good to know that this is already being progressed. Seeing EMUs running under their own power rather than being dragged will give both the public and enthusiasts the most realistic experience of vintage 3rd rail traction away from the juice.

 

[MarkyT]

A very interesting thread. Electric traction has always had the disadvantage of not being able to operate generally on preserved lines except where hauled, and this has led to a fair number of electric unit designs especially not being represented at all in preservation, or suffering the ignomony of being scrapped after initially being saved by groups because sufficient enthusiasm could not be garnered or maintained for their restoration with no prospect of useful operation. These developments raise the prospect of electric units with batteries becoming useful assets on a number of heritage lines, particularly for edge season and very hot weather use when steam might be difficult to justify or impossible to use and where diesel has been dominant up until now.

 

[D365]

A very interesting thread. Electric traction has always had the disadvantage of not being able to operate generally on preserved lines except where hauled, and this has led to a fair number of electric unit designs especially not being represented at all in preservation, or suffering the ignomony of being scrapped after initially being saved by groups because sufficient enthusiasm could not be garnered or maintained for their restoration with no prospect of useful operation. These developments raise the prospect of electric units with batteries becoming useful assets on a number of heritage lines, particularly for edge season and very hot weather use when steam might be difficult to justify or impossible to use and where diesel has been dominant up until now.

Certainly there's a better chance of bi-mode rolling stock seeing further use past their mainline careers, however I don't think that this will generate a significant increase in the interest of electric vehicles, which only really comes down to nostalgia.

 

[MarkyT]

Certainly there's a better chance of bi-mode rolling stock seeing further use past their mainline careers, however I don't think that this will generate a significant increase in the interest of electric vehicles, which only really comes down to nostalgia.

Many of the older classes that might generate that nostalgia among older enthusiasts have gone forever today. I suppose some of the more modern designs may be remembered fondly by younger people in the future. It's difficult to determine which will be the classics of the future. Anyone interested yet in a Hitachi 8xx preservation society?

 

[gc4946]

I hope one of the 769s will be preserved.
My preferred choice would be 769 008 (former 319 008 Cheriton) which ran through the Channel Tunnel in 1993 and 1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319#Notable_units

 

[Ashley Hill]

The thing is Horstead Keynes to Ardingly was 3rd rail so it would be nice to see an EMU operate in its own right over it.
Likewise a battery 1938 stock set could operate out to Ongar. Talking of preserving a 769 before one even enters service is like forming an IET preservation society.

 

[reddragon]

There is a growing industry converting classic cars to EVs so there is a base industry in lace to do a conversion.

I would say that it is only supply & cost issues that stop this happening at this time. Connecting a car battery pack onto a DC bus to do a conversion has already been demonstrated on the class 319s.

 

[DelW]

The thing is Horstead Keynes to Ardingly was 3rd rail so it would be nice to see an EMU operate in its own right over it.

It would, but I'd accept that the necessary safety protocols, volunteer training, and visitor safety concerns, would almost certainly rule it out.

However a number of voluntary heritage organisations run systems with overhead DC wiring for trams (Crich, Beamish and Wirral at least). It might be possible to operate a single EMU at low speed from such a system, using a collector either mounted on the train itself, or using another vehicle (one of the MLVs?) to carry the collector.

One obvious downside is the unavoidable visual intrusion which might spoil the effect for spectators, though possibly less so for those on the train. The current draw might make the contact wire size excessive too.

However, such an installation might be longer-lasting than batteries, which have a limited lifespan even when used with sophisticated charging systems.

Talking of preserving a 769 before one even enters service is like forming an IET preservation society.

I suspect a number of 769s (possibly all of them) will be surplus to TOC fleets long before IETs are.

 

[AM9]

the other option is to run a 4-TC hauled by a CL33 which is what Swanage Plan to do (https://www.facebook.com/SwanageTCgroup/) slight OT i know.

At present the 400 Series group (Owners of 4VOP 3905)kk have a batteries included project which currently they are converting MBSO 62364 from 1394 (http://www.400series.co.uk/). When i last checked the vechile was still being worked on at Ramparts.

As for the 4SUB 4732. It is one of our objectives to "Design and installation of bi-mode technology to make the 4-SUB unit 4732 self propelled". At present our main aim is to get the 4SUB cosmetically good. The inital plan is carraige 12796 will be the 1st to be done (as it is near the exit ramp). On this subject the work will NOT be carried out as Margate as the agreement we have is storage only. (https://www.hett.org.uk/).

The main issue with the above or to be honest all EMUs and alternative power is down to cost at the end of the day. It was part of the reason why the HETT was setup in the 1st place.

 

[DustyBin]

MLVs are the “ready made” (and authentic) solution, although there’s obviously a finite supply of them. It may be possible to install modern battery systems without having to carry out major alterations, they are after all a largely empty compartment internally!

I’ve mentioned it a few times, but I once travelled the length of the EKLR on the MLV+2EPB formation when it was there. The sound effects were fantastic, as close to an authentic experience as you’ll get away from an actual third rail.

 

[zwk500]

Specifically for the Bluebell Ardingly branch, 3rd rail has no chance. They have a 4VEP in storage, which could feasibly be fitted with batteries, if a charging solution can be found (it'd spend the majority of it's time off the juice rail). Alternatively a Push/pull fitted Class 73 would appear to be a perfectly suitable 'Southern' and 'heritage' option. The small diesel power would not be a problem from 4 Cars at low speed, and there are locos available.

An overhead conductor is more unlikely than 3rd rail, due to the need to extensively modify the units to fit the collector arm. Even if it's structurally possible, its almost certainly financially not.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Might I suggest they could install a non-connected "dead" length of 3rd rail for visual purposes while using the batteries for power?

That would seem to me to be a good compromise - as well as being a lot cheaper to do.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Might I suggest they could install a non-connected "dead" length of 3rd rail for visual purposes while using the batteries for power?

That would seem to me to be a good compromise - as well as being a lot cheaper to do.

Yes cosmetically it would look good.