Print at Home Ticket / 'e-ticket' - Refused travel

[mattr2102]

Quick summary:

Booked London to Manchester ticket with bike reservation a few months in advance.

Visited station a few months in advance and printed bike reservation tickets from machine in attempt to be fully prepared. Received numerous tickets from machine and assumed train ticket was in there too.

Turned up for train with bike reservation tickets and was told at gate that I needed actual train ticket.

Fair enough, thought this was no problem so showed him the e ticket on my phone. (Also had ticket on trainline app but this isn’t valid for travel either, this is displayed on app as ‘e-ticket’).

Was told that it had to be printed and so was refused travel, had to miss train, buy new full price ticket and take different longer route (due to bike reservations not being available later in the day).

Was not even allowed to board train (so I could use hard to secure bicycle reservation) and if there was an issue confirming validity of ticket then buy a full price ticket at that point.

Points:

- I now acknowledge that printing the ticket is an actual condition of travel.

- Can anyone tell me WHY this is a condition? I’m struggling to see the difference between the ticket displayed on a device screen and a piece of paper? Can somebody enlighten me as to why this condition exits?
- The two station gate staff could not tell me why it was required.
- The ticket desk staff I spoke to afterwards could not tell me why it was required (and suggested she wasn’t paid enough to know)
- The ticket desk manager could not tell me why it was required or what the difference was.
- Virgin online live assistant has been unable to tell me why this ticket is not valid on a device screen yet ‘e-tickets’ are.

- I was emailed the day before travel by thetrainline.com which suggested I download their app which would display my ticket info and ensure I was ‘ready for anything’:

“Get our app and you're ready for anything, with live delay, departure and platform info.”

- It doesn’t feel like great customer service when I have paid for a ticket and attempted to comply and print bike reservation tickets etc in advance yet due to overly complicated numerous ticket options, procedures and what to me seems like an unexplained technicality I am point blank refused travel, discussion/explanation or assistance.



Full ticket details attached.



Details:

Ticket purchase date - 13/06/2016

Travel date - 03/09/2016
Departs - 11:20 London Euston
Arrives - 13:28 Manchester Piccadilly


Bicycle reservation reference -
Date bicycle reservation printed: - 29/06/2016

Original ticket vendor - thetrainline.com

Other - Myself and a friend were meant to be travelling but in the end it was just me. This is why there are some references to ‘2 adults’

 

[Llanigraham]

Quite simple, and is stated on at least 2 of the documents you have linked to; you bought a PRINT AT HOME ticket and you did not print it, therefore you were correctly refused travel.

Why? Because that is how the system works, and the what you agreed to do when you bought the ticket.

You may be able to get a refund on the unused ticket.

And I would suggest in future you don't use Trainline as there are much better and cheaper ticket sellers available.

 

[sarahj]

Well one of the reasons is you could (but I'm sure you would never), print the ticket, hand it to a 'mate', then go, ooo it never printed, here is my email confirmation, can I travel.

 

[mattr2102]

Or by your logic I could print two copies and do the same, no?

It's not an email confirmation that I showed, it's a .pdf of the exact ticket that is printed.

 

[AlterEgo]

The reason it must be printed is because it is designed to be printed and scanned, like an airline boarding pass.

I don't think VTWC actually have any scanners which renders the point moot - unless this has changed recently.

I don't feel Virgin's logic stacks up here, and even when I used to work for them I felt the same. I'd push this. Complain to customer relations, and if no success there, escalate to Transport Focus.

 

[LexyBoy]

If it were accepted you wouldn't have had to hand over more cash for another ticket no?

There's a strong "rules is rules" culture in some industries and it is alive and well in parts of the railway. There's no good reason not to accept a PDF, but unless it's printed - and on the exact size and colour of paper specified - it's not valid. TOCs were put under pressure to introduce "modern" ticketing methods, and have by and large done it in a half-arsed fashion with no consistency between different operators and with "e", "m" and "print@home" tickets.

In future, don't use thetrainline (they are always more expensive than buying the ticket at the station), and use proper tickets - newfangled ticket types are very rarely cheaper and come with extra restrictions and loss of flexibility.

 

[mattr2102]

Interesting, you can use airline boarding passes on your mobile though (British Airways so this), they don't have to be printed.

I don't believe that a scanner differentiates between paper and a phone screen?

Virgin Trains sell e-tickets that are valid on a device screen - https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets/get-your-ticket - so I would think they have the technology.

Why is this ticket I bought special?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it were accepted you wouldn't have had to hand over more cash for another ticket no?

There's a strong "rules is rules" culture in some industries and it is alive and well in parts of the railway. There's no good reason not to accept a PDF, but unless it's printed - and on the exact size and colour of paper specified - it's not valid. TOCs were put under pressure to introduce "modern" ticketing methods, and have by and large done it in a half-arsed fashion with no consistency between different operators and with "e", "m" and "print@home" tickets.

In future, don't use thetrainline (they are always more expensive than buying the ticket at the station), and use proper tickets - newfangled ticket types are very rarely cheaper and come with extra restrictions and loss of flexibility.

Agreed, if their aim was to increase short term revenue at the expense of long term custom then it worked.

I used thetrainline for convenience as they offered an email alert to tell me when the tickets were available and travelling to a station to buy tickets costs time, though I agree that there's no need for their booking fees etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting, you can use airline boarding passes on your mobile though (British Airways so this), they don't have to be printed.

I don't believe that a scanner differentiates between paper and a phone screen?

Virgin Trains sell e-tickets that are valid on a device screen - https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets/get-your-ticket - so I would think they have the technology.

Why is this ticket I bought special?

Actually the BA boarding passes are very much different to each other. One is A4 size and one is the size of a phone screen. I don't think it would work if you had a printed boarding pass on a PDF and tried to scan it at Heathrow. The difference is you booked a printed ticket and not a mobile ticket (there are some of those on the railway too).

Where the systems are different is that with BA you can always download a mobile boarding pass (where locations allow it), even if you originally selected a printed one.

With Virgin you can't do that. It's half-arsed.

 

[LexyBoy]

The only reason it's not accepted is because the T&Cs say it must be printed.

I'd go with AlterEgo's advice to keep pestering customer relations until you get a refund.

Was it made clear to you at the point of purchase that you were not buying a conventional ticket and that it must be printed (at your expense and risk) before travel?

 

[mattr2102]

Actually the BA boarding passes are very much different to each other. One is A4 size and one is the size of a phone screen. I don't think it would work if you had a printed boarding pass on a PDF and tried to scan it at Heathrow. The difference is you booked a printed ticket and not a mobile ticket (there are some of those on the railway too).

Where the systems are different is that with BA you can always download a mobile boarding pass (where locations allow it), even if you originally selected a printed one.

With Virgin you can't do that. It's half-arsed.

British Airways boarding passes both contain the same information.

They contain a slightly different format of qr code/barcode. The qr code is machine readable on a display or printed on a piece of paper.

 

[TheEdge]

Was it made clear to you at the point of purchase that you were not buying a conventional ticket and that it must be printed (at your expense and risk) before travel?

Does the big double size font on the confirmation email to the effect of "Print your own ticket" not count? :roll:

 

[bb21]

Was it made clear to you at the point of purchase that you were not buying a conventional ticket and that it must be printed (at your expense and risk) before travel?

I believe both the confirmation email and the ticket itself make it clear that the ticket must be printed. They could probably do with being in bigger fonts though to draw people's attention to them.

The only reason it's not accepted is because the T&Cs say it must be printed.

I'd go with AlterEgo's advice to keep pestering customer relations until you get a refund.

There is no guarantee that a refund will be offered. They might, and they might not.

There is also a point which can be reached where you pester too much and end up annoying the caseworkers. Remember that you are asking for their discretion in this case as strictly speaking the terms were not adhered to.

Worth a try, but be prepared for a "no".

 

[mattr2102]

The only reason it's not accepted is because the T&Cs say it must be printed.

I'd go with AlterEgo's advice to keep pestering customer relations until you get a refund.

Was it made clear to you at the point of purchase that you were not buying a conventional ticket and that it must be printed (at your expense and risk) before travel?

A lot of times you are told to print items for your records. Technically it does say print it so by their terms and conditions I did not and it's not valid. I am yet to receive a response as to why a paper copy of the .pdf is any different to the electronic copy of the same .pdf so lack any understanding of the reasoning behind this condition.

To me it makes as much sense as a condition that you must stand on your left leg and whistle while presenting the ticket.

If I have an app showing my ticket, calling it an 'e-ticket' then it's not unreasonable to think that it's of some use as a ticket. In this case it was not.

 

[bb21]

A lot of times you are told to print items for your records. Technically it does say print it so by their terms and conditions I did not and it's not valid. I am yet to receive a response as to why a paper copy of the .pdf is any different to the electronic copy of the same .pdf so lack any understanding of the reasoning behind this condition.

There is no obligation to offer any explanation so you may well not get one, or one that is to your satisfaction.

 

[LexyBoy]

Does the big double size font on the confirmation email to the effect of "Print your own ticket" not count? :roll:

"At the point of purchase", not after purchase...

I'm not arguing that it is valid without being printed BTW. I do think it's a stupid rule and these tickets should be made a lot more customer-friendly or scrapped.

 

[Agent_c]

The reason it must be printed is because it is designed to be printed and scanned, like an airline boarding pass...

Except one can get a Virgin Atlantic (and other airlines) Boarding pass on their phone, which can be scanned.

If TheTrainLine has told you just to use their app, and not print it, and they have sold the ticket, then I think there is a breach-of-contract argument here, with TheTrainLine repsonsible for it as they told you to bring a ticket in a way that would not be accepted.

 

[mattr2102]

There is no obligation to offer any explanation so you may well not get one, or one that is to your satisfaction.

Agreed, I wouldn't think it's great long term PR/Customer Service to alienate your customers but I'm not confident that they will offer an explanation.

 

[LexyBoy]

I am yet to receive a response as to why a paper copy of the .pdf is any different to the electronic copy of the same .pdf so lack any understanding of the reasoning behind this condition.

Well, a PDF isn't printed on white A4 paper as required. If you'd printed it on letter size paper, or yellow paper it would not be valid.

I feel sorry for you and hope that you are successful in getting your additional ticket refunded, but I don't think that arguing the details with Virgin will get you far. Perhaps better to make your point in a more public arena - the consumer rights column of a newspaper for example - so that others will know to avoid these products in future.

 

[sheff1]

Does the big double size font on the confirmation email to the effect of "Print your own ticket" not count? :roll:

Indeed. Not only that, but a reminder was sent the day before travel. I do not use Trainline for obvious reasons, but those communications are certainly clearer than some of the ones from other booking agents.

Whether the requirement to print is 'reasonable' is a matter of opinion, but from the attachments provided by the OP it is very obvious that they were clearly advised that the ticket does need to be printed and on A4 paper.

 

[AlterEgo]

British Airways boarding passes both contain the same information.

They contain a slightly different format of qr code/barcode. The qr code is machine readable on a display or printed on a piece of paper.

OT, but as you say the barcodes are different. Don't think the paper ones would work as an image or PDF on your phone if you held it to the reader.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Except one can get a Virgin Atlantic (and other airlines) Boarding pass on their phone, which can be scanned.

We have already dealt with boarding passes. Virgin Atlantic are a separate company, it's just that a controlling group happens to have shares in both Atlantic or Trains.

Virgin also offer m-tickets anyway, but you cannot have both an m-ticket and an e-ticket for the same journey.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/mobile-app
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of times you are told to print items for your records. Technically it does say print it so by their terms and conditions I did not and it's not valid. I am yet to receive a response as to why a paper copy of the .pdf is any different to the electronic copy of the same .pdf so lack any understanding of the reasoning behind this condition.

To me it makes as much sense as a condition that you must stand on your left leg and whistle while presenting the ticket.

If I have an app showing my ticket, calling it an 'e-ticket' then it's not unreasonable to think that it's of some use as a ticket. In this case it was not.

You are taking the wrong approach.

It's not "technically it does say" - it does say, in very clear writing, three times between purchase and travel that you must PRINT THE TICKET.

Your proper approach is to accept you were wrong, forget about the moralities or ethics of the situation, and ask for a refund of one of the tickets, nicely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OT, but as you say the barcodes are different. Don't think the paper ones would work as an image or PDF on your phone if you held it to the reader.

They would and they do. Some airlines actually do it this way - you get emailed a PDF you can either print or scan from your phone.

M-tickets (which is what Trainline are talking about in their app) are different because you don't need ID - the phone is the ID.

 

[mattr2102]

They would and they do. Some airlines actually do it this way - you get emailed a PDF you can either print or scan from your phone.

M-tickets (which is what Trainline are talking about in their app) are different because you don't need ID - the phone is the ID.

Agreed, it's a barcode not a piece of magic, it would work if it was printed on a potato.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, it's a barcode not a piece of magic, it would work if it was printed on a potato.

To be fair some older barcode readers did have trouble with backlit screens, and a cracked screen can be a problem, but modern technology is fine with it - and if it wouldn't work with a PDF barcode on a screen, it wouldn't work with an mTicket either. Or indeed one printed on a bit of orange card with "National Rail" printed on it many times over
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed, it's a barcode not a piece of magic, it would work if it was printed on a potato.

I now want to see someone try to board a train or flight with a barcode printed on a potato.

FWIW, I doubt the condition of it being on A4 is enforced - the reason for A4 is so it isn't printed far too small. I'd imagine plenty of American tourists turn up with them printed on US Letter and have them accepted, nor do I expect it'd be a problem if it was printed to A4 form factor on half an A3. A5 might however be too small to read.

 

[bb21]

Can we try and discuss airline boarding pass mechanisms in a separate thread please so that we can keep things on topic here?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I feel sorry for you and hope that you are successful in getting your additional ticket refunded, but I don't think that arguing the details with Virgin will get you far. Perhaps better to make your point in a more public arena - the consumer rights column of a newspaper for example - so that others will know to avoid these products in future.

I agree with this approach.

 

[sauropod99]

Well one of the reasons is you could (but I'm sure you would never), print the ticket, hand it to a 'mate', then go, ooo it never printed, here is my email confirmation, can I travel.

You can print as many copies as you like. Whenever I've used them, I've printed multiple copies and kept them in different places in case I lose or forget my ticket. VTWC has never scanned the ticket and I've always kept it. It doesn't even work at the ticket barriers.

Therefore, what's the difference between a pdf displayed on a tablet, laptop or phone and one that's been printed on A4 paper?

 

[najaB]

There's a strong "rules is rules" culture in some industries and it is alive and well in parts of the railway.

The problem is, when does having a "bend the rules" culture become a free for all? If the rules don't make sense, then change them rather than bend them.

 

[mattr2102]

FWIW, I doubt the condition of it being on A4 is enforced - the reason for A4 is so it isn't printed far too small. I'd imagine plenty of American tourists turn up with them printed on US Letter and have them accepted, nor do I expect it'd be a problem if it was printed to A4 form factor on half an A3. A5 might however be too small to read.

This highlights the point.

You believe that the condition would only be enforced when there is a valid understandable reason to do so, i.e. if you had printed it on a postage stamp, which would not be readable.

You would probably be surprised if it was refused on US Letter, as although it is a condition to print on A4, there is no reason for it to be enforced in this case.

 

[sauropod99]

Well one of the reasons is you could (but I'm sure you would never), print the ticket, hand it to a 'mate', then go, ooo it never printed, here is my email confirmation, can I travel.

You are supposed to have the card you used to pay for the ticket, so nobody else can use the ticket. I had a problem with this a few years ago when the card I had used for the ticket was cancelled because somebody had tried to hack an online account. The new card had a different expiry date and last 4 digits.

 

[itfcfan]

I purchased advance Euston-Chester (return) e-tickets yesterday from virgintrains.co.uk - having seen this thread I expected I'd need to print these tickets (as only "m-tickets" can be shown on a screen without printing). However, the instruction on the email I received states:

How to use your e-ticket(s):

* Show the ticket(s) on your device or
* Access the ticket(s) via our mobile app. Download it here, or
* Print the ticket(s)

It therefore appears this e-ticket does not need to be printed but can simply be shown on the (mobile) device.

Has the Virgin (West Coast) policy changed recently? I realise the original ticket discussed in this thread was a different format from a third party website, but I'm pretty sure previous e-tickets from virgintrains.co.uk needed to be printed...

I've attached a screenshot of the ticket email for clarification. The ticket attachments themselves (not attached) feature a large QR code at the top of the image, followed by the ticket details (date, origin, destination, departure time, etc) and is formatted to be a narrow portrait that would not fit any usual paper size if it was printed.

 

[TheEdge]

Virgin offer that on tickets purchased through them, OP purchased tickets via TheTrainline.

Reason #16284 to not use that awful site.