Process of getting refunds from Deutsche Bahn

[kristiang85]

Last week (Tuesday) I had a typical nightmare journey on DB as I was trying to get back from Wurzburg to London. Hoping someone here has experience of claiming money back from them, as I've not done it before but I've had a considerable outlay I'd like to get back.

My original itinerary was:
ICE720 - Wurzburg to Frankfurt (1255-1404), 1st Class + seat reservation
ICE14 - Frankfurt to Brussels (1426-1735), 1st Class + seat reservation
(This was all one booking via DB)

Then
EST9167 - Brusells to London (2055-2157)

I thought leaving a 3.5hr gap would suffice for any DB shenanegens, but clearly not!

The ICE720 was delayed massively, running over an hour late by the time it got to Frankfurt. I got messages saying that I would not make my connection and I should use another route where possible. On the Bahn.de website, any leaving from Frankfurt later seemed to take a lot longer and would endanger my connection time, and other DB trains to Belgium were cancelled due to strikes. So the best option seemed to be to continue to Cologne and get a train from there, as there were faster direct routes to Brussels, which the train crew concurred with. I then realised that the only viable connections were in fact with Eurostar/Thalys, so I checked with the crew again and they confirmed my ticket was not valid on those, but due to disruption and the fact that I would miss my Eurostar without it, they could let me on if there was space.

The EST9472 from Cologne to Brussels was also delayed, so was at the platform when I got to Cologne. After being shuttled between various people, what seemed to be the train manager confirmed I could not use my DB ticket on the train and I'd have to buy a new one for €72. Weighing up the likely cost of changing my Eurostar to the next day, I decided to get on this one. (Then he had the cheek to charge me €97 for buying on the train ("it is the surcharge" *shrug*, which would have been nice to have been told when I asked him how much it would cost me!). They told me to claim it back from DB).

Anyway, I made it to Brussels and made my connection.

However, it was a less than satisfactory day. DB gave me a bit of paper to manually claim back *by post* (!!), but told me I'd be entitled to 25% refund of my ticket for an hours delay and 50% for 2 hrs. My questions are:
- The form doesn't seem to be very flexible with describing the problems I had, can I add a letter or will that be ignored?
- Can I get a refund not just on the delay but also the difference in having a first class ticket which I didn't use on the second segment? (although I did get a very good advance price)
- Can i get refunds on my seat reservation for train #2?
- How likely is it I'll get my €97 back? Will I need to show evidence I had a connection in Brussels to make, or will they disregard that if there were connections to Brussels later on?
- Is there a German version of something like RealTimeTrains so I can check the journey history? (as they ask for specific times, and in my rushing about trying to sort things I did not record this myself).

Thanks for any help anybody can offer!

 

[rvdborgt]

Apparently, nobody knew how to handle Railteam HOTNAT (or that it even exists). At the Cologne ticket office, some staff know it (sometimes only after asking for it specifically) and they will give you a confirmation of the delay, and a new timetable with a Railteam stamp or something similar.
I can confirm Eurostar (ex-Thalys) won't let you board without any such confirmation and will charge full fare plus an on-board supplement if you board nevertheless.
I'd fill out the compensation form from DB. There's a tick box for extra expenses IIRC. If DB give you less than the delay compensation plus the refund of the extra ticket (which I think is probable), then send a complaint to söp.

 

[kristiang85]

Apparently, nobody knew how to handle Railteam HOTNAT (or that it even exists). At the Cologne ticket office, some staff know it (sometimes only after asking for it specifically) and they will give you a confirmation of the delay, and a new timetable with a Railteam stamp or something similar.
I can confirm Eurostar (ex-Thalys) won't let you board without any such confirmation and will charge full fare plus an on-board supplement if you board nevertheless.
I'd fill out the compensation form from DB. There's a tick box for extra expenses IIRC. If DB give you less than the delay compensation plus the refund of the extra ticket (which I think is probable), then send a complaint to söp.

Hmm interesting, I'll log that for the future! (I'm doing my best to cut down on flying in Europe, but days like last week make it so difficult...)

Although I note that it says "This service is free of charge and is subject to the following conditions : the connection that was missed must be between two high-speed trains of the Railteam Alliance. HOTNAT only applies at the station at which the passenger originally planned to change trains and in cases of train delays and train cancellations." - as I had stayed on beyond Frankfurt, I presume it would have been invalid? But it would have been helpful to know this before I made that decision I guess.

Thanks for the links!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Apparently, nobody knew how to handle Railteam HOTNAT (or that it even exists). At the Cologne ticket office, some staff know it (sometimes only after asking for it specifically) and they will give you a confirmation of the delay, and a new timetable with a Railteam stamp or something similar.
I can confirm Eurostar (ex-Thalys) won't let you board without any such confirmation and will charge full fare plus an on-board supplement if you board nevertheless.
I'd fill out the compensation form from DB. There's a tick box for extra expenses IIRC. If DB give you less than the delay compensation plus the refund of the extra ticket (which I think is probable), then send a complaint to söp.

I had good service from the Cologne information office / ticket office a few years back when arriving late from Hamburg (because of DB late running and connection problems) meant just missing my Brussels connection. They noticed that the next one would be too late for my (last) Eurostar from Brussels to London so immediately offered me a hotel for the night with a taxi to get me there. The next morning they said re-booking was a problem because engineering work at Brussels meant no Eurostars from there that day, so they put lots of scribbles and rubber stamps on my ticket and I ended up going via Paris to get to London. At every stage the people on the next station/train took it all in their stride and there was no problem. I presume this was HOTNAT or whatever at work. My Hamburg-Brussels was on one through ticket, as I remember it, but I'm not sure this was a relevant factor.

The experience was wonderfully reminiscent of "the old days" when all the railways in Europe were publicly owned, with a public service ethos, and being tied to specific companies (and even specific routes on a long journey) wasn't a thing. But it sounds like I was lucky?

 

[mad_rich]

It's mad that DB only accept claims by post. I've just had to send them a chaser, also by post, after they fobbed me off on a previous claim.

If you hadn't taken the Eurostar from Cologne, it sounds like there weren't any DB services that could have got you to Brussels in time for the London train?

And you gave then an opportunity to rebook you onto the Eurostar, which they refused to do.

 

[rvdborgt]

Although I note that it says "This service is free of charge and is subject to the following conditions : the connection that was missed must be between two high-speed trains of the Railteam Alliance. HOTNAT only applies at the station at which the passenger originally planned to change trains and in cases of train delays and train cancellations." - as I had stayed on beyond Frankfurt, I presume it would have been invalid?

That's a bit of a grey area... last time I tried to use HOTNAT we had a substantial delay on a train to Düsseldorf (there were only a few direct services from Berlin to Cologne because of engineering works), got to Cologne somehow and then they did try to accommodate us, but failed because their information system (RIS) broke down and then we were just a minute or so too late to get the Thalys by the time they had produced a hand-written note...

 

[30907]

- Can I get a refund not just on the delay but also the difference in having a first class ticket which I didn't use on the second segment? (although I did get a very good advance price)

Probably - I assume the Frankfurt-Koeln was full in 1st?

- Can i get refunds on my seat reservation for train #2?

Yes

- Is there a German version of something like RealTimeTrains so I can check the journey history? (as they ask for specific times, and in my rushing about trying to sort things I did not record this myself).

DB planner still has last week's scheduled times, or try Zugradar.de?

 

[Gaelan]

- Is there a German version of something like RealTimeTrains so I can check the journey history? (as they ask for specific times, and in my rushing about trying to sort things I did not record this myself).

https://bahn.expert/ is great for this.

If you're back in the UK now, note that (last time I used it, at least) it displays times in your local time - so all the times will be an hour off.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

On 5/12 the timings were:

ICE 720
Würzburg depart 12:35+56 = 13:31
Frankfurt arrive 14:04+61 = 15:05
Frankfurt depart 14:09+68 = 15:17
Cologne-Deutz arrive 15:15+82 = 16:37 (I guess you took an S-Bahn to Hbf?)

ICE 14
Frankfurt depart 14:26+24 = 14:50

EST 9472
Cologne Hbf depart 16:44+18 = 17:02
Brussels South arrive 18:35+18 = 18:53

As far as I know the rules, you should be able to get the new ticket back, as well as a refund of the reservation you couldn't use and the 25% compensation for between 60 and 120 minutes delay. Not sure how it works with 1st and 2nd class compensation.

If you bought a normal ticket through DB you should be able to claim online as well, avoiding any paper. In the DB Navigator app it's in the ticket view > More actions > Submit compensation request.

In the normal PDF form, you should enter the delay data and then check "I missed my connection at: Frankfurt", "My last change of trains was: Cologne Hbf", "Due to the delay (...) please submit original documents: Cologne Hbf" and then attach the Eurostar (Thalys) ticket. Otherwise in the app, I believe you'd be asked to upload a file (not done that before though).

Otherwise a letter is fine as well, needing the details of planned and actual journey itinerary.

If they don't answer the request to your satisfaction, you can always protest the reply and write a more detailed letter asking them to reconsider. If that doesn't work there's an arbitration institution (söp), or you can write to the Federal Railway Office: https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/fahrgastrechte/fahrgastrechte-schlichtung

 

[paul_munich]

There are two non-stop ICE services per hour and one RB train from Würzburg to Frankfurt, so why did you wait in Würzburg for an hour on the 720 that left Munich already 45' late???

 

[DanielB]

Probably the OP was unaware of either the delay or the ease of DB cancelling the "zugbindung". I've once had my zugbindung cancelled when my ICE from Würzburg was announced just 20 minutes late, allowing me to catch an ICE one hour earlier so I could easily make the last ICE back to the Netherlands of the day.
The OPs situation is relatively comparable, as he also needed to catch a late train back to London.

 

[30907]

Probably the OP was unaware of either the delay or the ease of DB cancelling the "zugbindung". I've once had my zugbindung cancelled when my ICE from Würzburg was announced just 20 minutes late, allowing me to catch an ICE one hour earlier so I could easily make the last ICE back to the Netherlands of the day.

How clear is the mail/text from DB about alternative services? It's some time since I had one, what's the wording?
From memory, the rule is anything above 20min at destination.

 

[kristiang85]

It's mad that DB only accept claims by post. I've just had to send them a chaser, also by post, after they fobbed me off on a previous claim.

If you hadn't taken the Eurostar from Cologne, it sounds like there weren't any DB services that could have got you to Brussels in time for the London train?

And you gave then an opportunity to rebook you onto the Eurostar, which they refused to do.

I did ask how I would go about it, and they said it was up to Thalys rather than something DB would do, but this was on board staff rather than station staff, which might have been different.

On 5/12 the timings were:

ICE 720
Würzburg depart 12:35+56 = 13:31
Frankfurt arrive 14:04+61 = 15:05
Frankfurt depart 14:09+68 = 15:17
Cologne-Deutz arrive 15:15+82 = 16:37 (I guess you took an S-Bahn to Hbf?)

ICE 14
Frankfurt depart 14:26+24 = 14:50

EST 9472
Cologne Hbf depart 16:44+18 = 17:02
Brussels South arrive 18:35+18 = 18:53

As far as I know the rules, you should be able to get the new ticket back, as well as a refund of the reservation you couldn't use and the 25% compensation for between 60 and 120 minutes delay. Not sure how it works with 1st and 2nd class compensation.

If you bought a normal ticket through DB you should be able to claim online as well, avoiding any paper. In the DB Navigator app it's in the ticket view > More actions > Submit compensation request.

In the normal PDF form, you should enter the delay data and then check "I missed my connection at: Frankfurt", "My last change of trains was: Cologne Hbf", "Due to the delay (...) please submit original documents: Cologne Hbf" and then attach the Eurostar (Thalys) ticket. Otherwise in the app, I believe you'd be asked to upload a file (not done that before though).

Otherwise a letter is fine as well, needing the details of planned and actual journey itinerary.

If they don't answer the request to your satisfaction, you can always protest the reply and write a more detailed letter asking them to reconsider. If that doesn't work there's an arbitration institution (söp), or you can write to the Federal Railway Office: https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/fahrgastrechte/fahrgastrechte-schlichtung

This is really helpful, thank you very much!

There are two non-stop ICE services per hour and one RB train from Würzburg to Frankfurt, so why did you wait in Würzburg for an hour on the 720 that left Munich already 45' late???

Becasue I had a reservation on the one I took? And when we got on it seemed it would make the connection still, as despite being an hour late the journey planner indicated that it would make up half an hour by the time it got to Frankfurt (I didn't know how, but I had to trust it!). And our connecting train was also late, so I thought there would have been plenty of time, but the ICE just kept crawling along...

And it was only when on the train that the notification came through that I'd miss the connection.

Probably the OP was unaware of either the delay or the ease of DB cancelling the "zugbindung". I've once had my zugbindung cancelled when my ICE from Würzburg was announced just 20 minutes late, allowing me to catch an ICE one hour earlier so I could easily make the last ICE back to the Netherlands of the day.
The OPs situation is relatively comparable, as he also needed to catch a late train back to London.

Indeed, I had no idea how this worked - I thought it might be like British trains where there is zero flexibilty on advance tickets, and decided not to risk making changes to my journey prior to official notifications.

How clear is the mail/text from DB about alternative services? It's some time since I had one, what's the wording?
From memory, the rule is anything above 20min at destination.

Not sure, as I didn't actually get any for some reason, but my friends who I was travelling with did. But as far as I recall it was just a short message saying "You will not make your connection; please use alternative trains to complete your journey" or words to that effect.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I made a claim online after having to buy a new ticket for Eurostar because of cancelled ICE Brussels to Koln. I got given 25% for over an hour late and half of the cost of the ticket I bought for Eurostar. So I took that and decided it was a good result.

I made my claim fully online without using any post though, you have to have an account to do so.

 

[rvdborgt]

I made a claim online after having to buy a new ticket for Eurostar because of cancelled ICE Brussels to Koln. I got given 25% for over an hour late and half of the cost of the ticket I bought for Eurostar. So I took that and decided it was a good result.

This should have been a standard rebooking free of charge under Railteam. Plus the delay compensation of course. You could still file a complaint with the söp.

 

[kristiang85]

I made a claim online after having to buy a new ticket for Eurostar because of cancelled ICE Brussels to Koln. I got given 25% for over an hour late and half of the cost of the ticket I bought for Eurostar. So I took that and decided it was a good result.

I made my claim fully online without using any post though, you have to have an account to do so.

Thanks, I'll investigate the online option then - can I retrospectively make an account to claim? I booked my tickets online but I suspect I bought as a 'guest'.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This should have been a standard rebooking free of charge under Railteam. Plus the delay compensation of course. You could still file a complaint with the söp.

I appreciate that but the Belgian ticket office was shut due to strikes so I did what I had to do to make the sleeper connection.

I must get a but more savvy with railteam stuff.

Thanks, I'll investigate the online option then - can I retrospectively make an account to claim? I booked my tickets online but I suspect I bought as a 'guest'.

Hmmm not sure. I had to log in.

 

[Goldfish62]

I made my claim fully online without using any post though, you have to have an account to do so.

I did just that last Friday when DB advised me that "Trip not possible" due to the short notice drivers strike. It was very straightforward to do. Curiously though they are apparently going to inform me of the outcome by post rather than email!

Re the OP's delay, would this not have been covered by CIV being an international journey, or does CIV just apply when a cross-border leg of a through journey is delayed?

 

[rvdborgt]

I did just that last Friday when DB advised me that "Trip not possible" due to the short notice drivers strike. It was very straightforward to do. Curiously though they are apparently going to inform me of the outcome by post rather than email!

My most recent claim (last month) resulted in a reply via email, containing the PDF that would previously have been printed and snail mailed.

Re the OP's delay, would this not have been covered by CIV being an international journey, or does CIV just apply when a cross-border leg of a through journey is delayed?

If the ICE and Eurostar were booked separately, then OP had two separate contracts. CIV doesn't change that.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the ICE and Eurostar were booked separately, then OP had two separate contracts. CIV doesn't change that.

But what about the cross border journey between Germany and Belgium, which was the main issue?

 

[Jamesrob637]

https://bahn.expert/ is great for this.

If you're back in the UK now, note that (last time I used it, at least) it displays times in your local time - so all the times will be an hour off.

Thanks: that'll be interesting for my clients.

 

[rvdborgt]

But what about the cross border journey between Germany and Belgium, which was the main issue?

CIV doesn't make your ticket valid on other operators' trains.

 

[30907]

CIV doesn't make your ticket valid on other operators' trains.

It would have allowed the OP to use Regional trains via Welkenraedt but (a) that's slower by nearly 2hr and (b) there was a strike disrupting things.

 

[Goldfish62]

CIV doesn't make your ticket valid on other operators' trains.

So how come a London International CIV ticket guarantees travel on a later Eurostar should the connection be missed?

 

[rvdborgt]

So how come a London International CIV ticket guarantees travel on a later Eurostar should the connection be missed?

I suppose that's an internal British agreement.

 

[Goldfish62]

I suppose that's an internal British agreement.

Presumably.

 

[30907]

I suppose that's an internal British agreement.

Partly, but the maincdifference is that between Koeln and Bruxelles DB and ES are competing, not to say uncooperative.

 

[kristiang85]

Hi all, me again - I've been trying to submit my claim online, as suggested above, for over a week now, but each time I try to log into my account on the DB site I just get "503 Service Unavailable". I've tried on different devices, still the same problem.

Does anybody else have this problem?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hi all, me again - I've been trying to submit my claim online, as suggested above, for over a week now, but each time I try to log into my account on the DB site I just get "503 Service Unavailable". I've tried on different devices, still the same problem.

Does anybody else have this problem?

Yes: if you're on Virgin Media you get nginx 503. Use data instead or tether

 

[kristiang85]

Yes: if you're on Virgin Media you get nginx 503. Use data instead or tether

Aah right, thanks! How odd.