Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[CyrusWuff]

The consultation map in post #1 (which shows the majority but not all included stations I believe) includes Tonbridge and south to Tunbridge Wells.

Correct, though given Phase 1 only covers 52 stations across six TOCs, I'd hazard a guess that it'll only go as far as Sevenoaks on SE to start with.

 

[Fazaar1889]

When will be find out which stations have been rolled out?

 

[Haywain]

When will be find out which stations have been rolled out?

I would be astonished if the roll out was not accompanied by fanfares and ministerial announcements. It will almost certainly be a 'big bang' roll-out with all 52 phase one stations going live at the same time, for maximum noise/impact of the "delivering for customers" type.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I would be astonished if the roll out was not accompanied by fanfares and ministerial announcements. It will almost certainly be a 'big bang' roll-out with all 52 phase one stations going live at the same time, for maximum noise/impact of the "delivering for customers" type.

Fair enough thanks

 

[londonbridge]

Thanks for replies, just (very!) advanced planning for when I might be able to use contactless whenever I go down to do Tonbridge parkrun was the reason for asking (I tour there a few times a year).

 

[Hadders]

I’m not familiar with fares to Tonbridge but if there are super off peak tickets available at weekends then it will almost certainly be cheaper to use these rather than contactless.

The convenience of contactless is fantastic but it potentially comes with the sting in the tail of significant price increases for many passengers.

 

[jon0844]

I would be astonished if the roll out was not accompanied by fanfares and ministerial announcements. It will almost certainly be a 'big bang' roll-out with all 52 phase one stations going live at the same time, for maximum noise/impact of the "delivering for customers" type.

If the last extension was anything to go by, many stations went live early without any fanfare and then were announced in one go - with some people thinking 'Huh? I've been using my card for xx weeks!'.

Grant Shapps even turned up to ride one of the first WGC to Sevenoaks trains when that launched last May, although I don't think any of the invited media turned up besides the local paper because it wasn't really that exciting!

I’m not familiar with fares to Tonbridge but if there are super off peak tickets available at weekends then it will almost certainly be cheaper to use these rather than contactless.

The convenience of contactless is fantastic but it potentially comes with the sting in the tail of significant price increases for many passengers.

People don't seem to care. They'd be mighty upset if their fare goes up nn pence, but then happily switch to a method that's more convenient and a lot more expensive. Some people will voluntarily pay more for the convenience, which gives a lot of flexibility too - like changing your mind on a return journey, or even what station you might wish to go to/from as you're travelling, while a lot of people probably simply do not know and aren't being told.

It's not like stations have any sort of poster that details the different methods of travel and example costs. At most you'll see what zone (if any) and what methods of payment/cards are accepted. You must then do your own research.

 

[Hadders]

If the last extension was anything to go by, many stations went live early without any fanfare and then were announced in one go - with some people thinking 'Huh? I've been using my card for xx weeks!'.

Grant Shapps even turned up to ride one of the first WGC to Sevenoaks trains when that launched last May, although I don't think any of the invited media turned up besides the local paper because it wasn't really that exciting!



People don't seem to care. They'd be mighty upset if their fare goes up nn pence, but then happily switch to a method that's more convenient and a lot more expensive. Some people will voluntarily pay more for the convenience, which gives a lot of flexibility too - like changing your mind on a return journey, or even what station you might wish to go to/from as you're travelling, while a lot of people probably simply do not know and aren't being told.

It's not like stations have any sort of poster that details the different methods of travel and example costs. At most you'll see what zone (if any) and what methods of payment/cards are accepted. You must then do your own research.

I’d expect a soft launch followed by a loud ‘fanfare’.

As for tickets my worry is if (or more likely when) the good value tickets get withdrawn. Passengers won’t get a choice then.

 

[jon0844]

Simplification always works like that funnily enough.

 

[island]

I’m not familiar with fares to Tonbridge but if there are super off peak tickets available at weekends then it will almost certainly be cheaper to use these rather than contactless.

There are super off peak day returns, as well as Southeastern's Weekender ticket (valid outbound on Friday after morning peak or anytime on Saturday, not valid to return the same day, only the rest of the weekend.

 

[telstarbox]

Thanks for replies, just (very!) advanced planning for when I might be able to use contactless whenever I go down to do Tonbridge parkrun was the reason for asking (I tour there a few times a year).

The parkrun route has tons of bridges!

 

[traji00]

I’ve just passed through Wraysbury station (Staines-Windsor line), and a pair of Cubic’s readers are being installed at the platform 2 exit.

No info on when they’ll go live though. (I asked)

 

[JaJaWa]

Picture here of readers at Upper Halliford

Source: https://twitter.com/EthanAfro/status/1636739351513116672

 

[JacobWrenn]

Will all stations need these new readers installed? Or are the commonly used gatelines with the yellow smartcard pads and barcode scanners capable of being changed in software?

 

[SWT_USER]

I’ve just passed through Wraysbury station (Staines-Windsor line), and a pair of Cubic’s readers are being installed at the platform 2 exit.

No info on when they’ll go live though. (I asked)

Great, hopefully the Windsor lines will be among the first to go live then - although I don't see why they can't just use the existing card readers.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Picture here of readers at Upper Halliford

Source: https://twitter.com/EthanAfro/status/1636739351513116672

Don't be shy.. Take off the blue things

Will all stations need these new readers installed? Or are the commonly used gatelines with the yellow smartcard pads and barcode scanners capable of being changed in software?

I had assumed that they'll use the yellow pads but it seems not...

 

[JonathanH]

Will all stations need these new readers installed? Or are the commonly used gatelines with the yellow smartcard pads and barcode scanners capable of being changed in software?

Stations with ticket gates (and no separate 'night access') don't need new readers, but probably need the software on the existing gates updated, based on previous installations.

 

[hwl]

Don't be shy.. Take off the blue things


I had assumed that they'll use the yellow pads but it seems not...

It depends how old the electronics behind the yellow pad is needed (many thousands of existing early ones need replacing in the next few years including many of the ones in buses which get recycled) and also potentially which firm did the installations and supplied the gates.
I think there are also some known lack of uptime issues with some equipment that TOCs previous procured (cooling related: sunlight, cats etc), so higher reliability equipment might be being installed. (TfL have higher standards than TOCs)

 

[Fazaar1889]

It depends how old the electronics behind the yellow pad is (many thousands of existing early ones need replacing in the next few years including many of the ones in buses which get recycled) need and also potentially which firm did the installations and supplied the gates.
I think there are also some known lack of uptime issues with some equipment that TOCs previous procured (cooling related: sunlight, cats etc), so higher reliability equipment might be being installed. (TfL have higher standards than TOCs)

Ah makes sense.

 

[traji00]

I’ve just passed through Wraysbury station (Staines-Windsor line), and a pair of Cubic’s readers are being installed at the platform 2 exit.

…

Sunnymeads and Datchet have now have covered readers.

 

[paul1609]

I’m not familiar with fares to Tonbridge but if there are super off peak tickets available at weekends then it will almost certainly be cheaper to use these rather than contactless.

The convenience of contactless is fantastic but it potentially comes with the sting in the tail of significant price increases for many passengers.

I suspect Tonbridge will be a difficult case it already has Not HS1, Plus HS1 and via Redhill (including Keygo) routes plus the products and limitations of 2 differing TOCs.

 

[Alex365Dash]

It depends how old the electronics behind the yellow pad is needed (many thousands of existing early ones need replacing in the next few years including many of the ones in buses which get recycled) and also potentially which firm did the installations and supplied the gates.
I think there are also some known lack of uptime issues with some equipment that TOCs previous procured (cooling related: sunlight, cats etc), so higher reliability equipment might be being installed. (TfL have higher standards than TOCs)

I believe the validators on SWR stations (of which Upper Halliford is one) are supplied by Vix rather than Cubic, so trying to get the current validators there added to the TfL PAYG system is likely a non-starter.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I suspect Tonbridge will be a difficult case it already has Not HS1, Plus HS1 and via Redhill (including Keygo) routes plus the products and limitations of 2 differing TOCs.

Overall that looks easy to solve:

I would think that in any rationalisation for pay-as-you-go, it would make sense for the via Redhill and via Sevenoaks fares to become equal, with either route being permitted.

Looking on brfares.com, I see you're correct that there are also via-HS1 tickets. Frankly, I'm a bit baffled by that. Outside times of disruption, I can't envisage any way that it would seriously make sense to travel from Tonbridge to London via HS1: To do so you'd either need to head right out to Ashford, or change at Paddock Wood and then again at Strood, neither of which looks like to me like a sensible route - so I'm going to hazard a guess that sales of Tonbridge-London via-HS1 tickets are close to zero. But at any rate, I can't see either of those causing an issue for Project Oval: Ashford is unlikely to be included in the Oval area, so anyone going via Ashford would have to buy a paper ticket anyway. And for anyone using HS1 between Gravesend and London, presumably you'd just apply a premium to pay-as-you-go fares, which will be very easy to detect and apply because of the separate HS1 gatelines at St Pancras International and Stratford International.

 

[Snow1964]

I believe the validators on SWR stations (of which Upper Halliford is one) are supplied by Vix rather than Cubic, so trying to get the current validators there added to the TfL PAYG system is likely a non-starter.

Would be a messy solution for the customer if there are two sets of validators, and customer has to decide which one to use. And what would happen if they touched in/out at wrong one.

The photo looks odd to me, why would validators be positioned to be obscured by a lamppost one side and put next to bike racks, where parked bikes might obscure anyone looking for them.

 

[jon81uk]

Would be a messy solution for the customer if there are two sets of validators, and customer has to decide which one to use. And what would happen if they touched in/out at wrong one.

The photo looks odd to me, why would validators be positioned to be obscured by a lamppost one side and put next to bike racks, where parked bikes might obscure anyone looking for them.

The bike racks are several feet lower than the area containing the validators.

 

[paul1609]

Overall that looks easy to solve:

I would think that in any rationalisation for pay-as-you-go, it would make sense for the via Redhill and via Sevenoaks fares to become equal, with either route being permitted.

Looking on brfares.com, I see you're correct that there are also via-HS1 tickets. Frankly, I'm a bit baffled by that. Outside times of disruption, I can't envisage any way that it would seriously make sense to travel from Tonbridge to London via HS1: To do so you'd either need to head right out to Ashford, or change at Paddock Wood and then again at Strood, neither of which looks like to me like a sensible route - so I'm going to hazard a guess that sales of Tonbridge-London via-HS1 tickets are close to zero. But at any rate, I can't see either of those causing an issue for Project Oval: Ashford is unlikely to be included in the Oval area, so anyone going via Ashford would have to buy a paper ticket anyway. And for anyone using HS1 between Gravesend and London, presumably you'd just apply a premium to pay-as-you-go fares, which will be very easy to detect and apply because of the separate HS1 gatelines at St Pancras International and Stratford International.

I think you're right for London terminals but for Stratford International (think Travelcard) the case is much more marginal and in some cases the quickest journey is via a single change at Ashford International. I believe the Tonbridge chapter of the West Ham Hooligans are known as the High Speed Firm

 

[Alex365Dash]

Would be a messy solution for the customer if there are two sets of validators, and customer has to decide which one to use. And what would happen if they touched in/out at wrong one.

The photo looks odd to me, why would validators be positioned to be obscured by a lamppost one side and put next to bike racks, where parked bikes might obscure anyone looking for them.

I imagine the current validators would probably be turned off after the new ones start use, after which they can be removed. As you would at the likes of St Albans City, you use the TfL validator even if you have a National Rail smartcard or KeyGo (or in this case SWR's Tap2Go).

 

[londonbridge]

I suspect Tonbridge will be a difficult case it already has Not HS1, Plus HS1 and via Redhill (including Keygo) routes plus the products and limitations of 2 differing TOCs.

That’s a point, if I tap in at Purley and out at Tonbridge the system needs to know whether I’ve gone via Redhill or whether I’ve gone up to London Bridge and back out….unless they put the equivalent of a pink reader which you have to tap at Redhill.

 

[miklcct]

My main concern will be Reading to Gatwick where the cheaper route doesn't involve a change of trains, then passengers may legitimately go via Farringdon without touching but being charged a cheaper fare once the system goes live on the direct line.

 

[Joe Paxton]

That’s a point, if I tap in at Purley and out at Tonbridge the system needs to know whether I’ve gone via Redhill or whether I’ve gone up to London Bridge and back out….unless they put the equivalent of a pink reader which you have to tap at Redhill.

I think a pink reader equivalent would make some sense. Though for some journeys (including perhaps Purley to Tonbridge?) the simplest thing would be to assume the cheaper route.