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Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

CyrusWuff

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It may have been raised upthread, but the way the time restrictions for traditional tickets have been implemented means that for some journeys you need an Anytime ticket ridiculously early, whereas when Contactless eventually goes live it'll be based on the time you touch in at the origin.

For an extreme example: Shoeburyness to Windsor & Eton Riverside has a last off-peak departure of 13:27, connecting with the 15:33 from Waterloo. After that, the next off-peak service isn't until 19:08.
 
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JonathanH

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It may have been raised upthread, but the way the time restrictions for traditional tickets have been implemented means that for some journeys you need an Anytime ticket ridiculously early, whereas when Contactless eventually goes live it'll be based on the time you touch in at the origin.

For an extreme example: Shoeburyness to Windsor & Eton Riverside has a last off-peak departure of 13:27, connecting with the 15:33 from Waterloo. After that, the next off-peak service isn't until 19:08.
Yes, it is alluded to in the earlier discussion but it is useful to discuss it some more.

I think the restriction is not to join any train between 16:00 and 19:00. Therefore, journey planners see that the 13:57 from Windsor results in a passenger needing to get a post 16:00 train from Fenchurch Street.

I don't think this actually makes the 13:57 from Shoeburyness a peak train as such. It just means that someone taking the 13:57 can only go as far as London, then needs to stop, before rejoining a train after 19:00 from Waterloo.

Clearly, it is somewhat draconian that a train from Shoeburyness at 18:50 is treated as a peak service, when the passenger then passes through London well after 8pm.

Passengers will clearly be put off by this massively wide peak band. It can be circumvented to some extent by splitting tickets and using an off-peak travelcard.

Clearly similar issues already arise with Contactless for long journeys across London where a passenger clearly isn't travelling with a peak flow. It does make things very complicated.

Presumably, someone with an off-peak day return could leave Shoeburyness at 15:54, arrive Fenchurch Street at 16:59, then take the 19:03 from Waterloo to Windsor but journey planners aren't set up to show that.

I can see where they are coming from with this. If the restriction was defined only on the origin, passengers would buy long to circumvent restrictions at the London Terminal. Likewise, if only defined in London, people would circumvent the restriction into London from the outer destination. Hence the really wide peak band.
 
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CyrusWuff

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Yes, it is alluded to in the earlier discussion but it is useful to discuss it some more.

I can see where they are coming from with this. If the restriction was defined only on the origin, passengers would buy long to circumvent restrictions at the London Terminal. Likewise, if only defined in London, people would circumvent the restriction into London from the outer destination. Hence the really wide peak band.
Though, of course, when Contactless finally goes live it's when you touch in at the origin station that determines whether you're charged a peak or off-peak fare, rather than anything that happens in between (exceeding connection or OSI times so you break the journey notwithstanding, of course.)

Going back to the Shoeburyness to Windsor & Eton Riverside example again, with CPAY the last off-peak departure from Shoeburyness would be 15:37.

I'm struggling to think of a way of bringing the restrictions for traditional tickets closer to those for contactless, however, given the electronic data suggests that you can only apply restrictions at all stations or at specific stations. For example, restriction 9I between London Terminals and Manchester: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=MAN&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=7&tkt=SVR

Presumably going down that route would require specific restrictions to be maintained for the 53 Phase 1 stations plus all of the relevant/necessary stations in the existing CPAY area. With six new restriction codes being introduced, that's a lot of data to maintain!
 

JonathanH

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Going back to the Shoeburyness to Windsor & Eton Riverside example again, with CPAY the last off-peak departure from Shoeburyness would be 15:37.
There is also a 15:54 from Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Street. I can't see why someone has to follow a train with a connection at the other end, just the last train before 16:00.

With CPAY, they could also touch inbat 15:59 for the 16:03.

I'm struggling to think of a way of bringing the restrictions for traditional tickets closer to those for contactless, however, given the electronic data suggests that you can only apply restrictions at all stations or at specific stations.
Banning break of journey and starting short would do it, but it would be impossible to police without a fully gated system and mandatory use use of barcode tickets.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'm struggling to think of a way of bringing the restrictions for traditional tickets closer to those for contactless, however, given the electronic data suggests that you can only apply restrictions at all stations or at specific stations. For example, restriction 9I between London Terminals and Manchester: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=MAN&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=7&tkt=SVR

Presumably going down that route would require specific restrictions to be maintained for the 53 Phase 1 stations plus all of the relevant/necessary stations in the existing CPAY area. With six new restriction codes being introduced, that's a lot of data to maintain!

Wouldn't need to be that complex. Because the use case is basically "go to London and change there", a restriction code per TOC would near enough do it.

Mind you it's about time the systems allowed for "a connecting train may be used to continue a journey begun at a valid time", as that's very commonly found in the textual restriction but can't be easily implemented, and would allow this to be done just fine based on departure time from origin.
 

JonathanH

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Mind you it's about time the systems allowed for "a connecting train may be used to continue a journey begun at a valid time", as that's very commonly found in the textual restriction but can't be easily implemented, and would allow this to be done just fine based on departure time from origin.
That is explicity what they are looking to disallow, because (in my view) the most important thing they are seeking to manage is people travelling in the peak from London.

Applying restrictions based on the time someone leaves Windsor or Shoeburyness is frankly ridiculous, particularly if they are crossing London at 8pm.

As I note, it can be done with barcode tickets, where the start of the journey is registered at the initial station, but you need to be able to prevent people starting short to maintain the control of fares in the peak from London. With magnetic stripe tickets, it is a lot more challenging.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I acknowledge that the current implementation of Contactless considers only first touch in. However, even with that, we have seen people complain on this forum about touching in in Central London at 6.30pm, then travelling from the London Terminal after 7pm, and being charged a through peak fare.)
 

Bletchleyite

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That is explicity what they are looking to disallow, because (in my view) the most important thing they are seeking to manage is people travelling in the peak from London.

So you'd think, but it is NOT what contactless does. The idea is to make it equivalent to that. Otherwise why change it at all?
 

JonathanH

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So you'd think, but it is NOT what contactless does. The idea is to make it equivalent to that. Otherwise why change it at all?
Yes, I agree it isn't what Contactless does, based on what we know about the implementation so far. However, Contactless also doesn't allow you to start short, which is what a paper ticket does. It is the starting short bit that I think is being guarded against.
 

Hadders

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Diamond Geezer gives an easy to understand explanation of the changes on c2c:

The cost of travelling by train between London and Southend is changing.

It's quite a sudden change - announced three days ago and being introduced in three days time. It's being described as "a new and simplified fares and ticketing model" and is part of the upcoming rollout of contactless payment beyond the existing suburban boundary. That rollout has recently been delayed, kicked back from December to next spring, so c2c's move is somewhat premature. But as of Sunday 3rd December the fare changes are being implemented anyway and there will, as you might expect, be both winners and losers.

In today's post I'm going to focus on fares between Southend Central and Fenchurch Street to keep things simple but similar changes apply to other journeys. Also this kind of model is rolling out on other railways too, both this weekend and in the future, marking a significant shift to the way fares are structured in the London hinterland. Essentially things are being set up so passengers can tap and go, and this means setting peak and off-peak fares more in line with the way TfL operates.

whatschanging.jpg

A page on the c2c website explains what's going on but without giving specific details. A leaflet available at c2c stations additionally gives examples of fare changes, but deviously avoids showcasing any increases. National Rail have also introduced a summary page on their website, but you may feel your head explode as you work your way through it because their attempt at simplification necessarily isn't simple.

There are three main changes.

1) Single tickets will cost half of a Return ticket

(n.b. the official statement is "...cost around half of a Return ticket", but I'm trying to keep it simple)

Here's how that'll play out at peak times between Southend Central and Fenchurch Street.

Peak Until 2 Dec From 3 Dec
Single: £14.60 £11.30
Return: £22.60 £22.60

At present a single fare is more than half of a return fare - about two-thirds in this case. This is bad value for people who make single journeys (although they're the minority because most people obviously come back). From next week the single fare will be exactly half the return fare. This looks like common sense and also has the added benefit in the contactless world that the system doesn't need to remember whether you're coming or going - all legs cost the same.

At off-peak times tickets look like they're getting cheaper.

Off-Peak Until 2 Dec From 3 Dec
Single: £14.60 £9.60
Return: £21.60 £19.20

Again a single journey will cost exactly half of a return. And these are decent savings, one-third less for an off-peak single and 11% less for an off-peak return. But train companies aren't made of money so there's got to be a catch, and here it is...

2) Evening peak times will apply 16:00 to 19:00, Monday to Friday, from or via a London station.

At present there isn't an evening peak on c2c but as of next week bad luck, there is. Anyone catching a train out of Fenchurch Street between 4pm and 7pm will be affected (ditto West Ham, Barking, Upminster etc). This introduces the anomaly that the last train before 4pm and the first train after 7pm will suddenly get busier as people try to avoid the higher fare, something previously only seen on other lines. So that's a disappointing change.

It won't annoy commuters who travel in from Southend during the morning rush because they're already paying for a peak return. But it may annoy those whose journey into the capital avoids the morning peak because they now face financial restrictions on the return trip. In fact they'll still be saving money compared to this week, whenever they travel, but it may not feel like they are.

Returns Until 2 Dec From 3 Dec
Peak+Peak: £22.60 £11.30+£11.30 = £22.60
Peak+OffP: £22.60 £9.60+£11.30 = £20.90
OffP+Peak: £21.60 £11.30+£9.60 = £20.90
OffP+OffP: £21.60 £9.60+£9.60 = £19.20

Importantly the new evening peak only applies to journeys heading east towards Essex. Anyone heading back into London in the evening faces no such restrictions, so if you're planning a trip to the seaside you don't have to worry when to come back. This is similar to the way that TfL don't charge Oyster users peak fares in the evenings if they're travelling into zone 1, a rule now being applied more widely elsewhere.

Also importantly you don't have to use contactless, you can still buy a paper ticket. But you will have to buy the right paper ticket, so for example if you plump for an off-peak return you won't be able to leave the capital between four and seven (something which was never an issue before).

Railcard users, for example, should continue to buy paper returns rather than electronic singles. That's partly because the technology doesn't yet exist to link railcards to contactless cards, but also because many railcards set a minimum fare limit of £12. Previously all Southend to London fares exceeded £12 but now both kinds of single fall underneath so a discount won't apply.

For weekday passengers this is all sounding mostly positive so there must be another catch, and here it is.

3) There will no longer be Super Off-Peak tickets available on these routes

Super Off-Peak returns currently apply all day at weekends. They are all being scrapped, indeed Saturday is your very last chance to buy one. And they're much cheaper, so bad luck weekend travellers because you're the ones being shafted.

Weekends Until 2 Dec From 3 Dec
Return: £16.20 £9.60+£9.60 = £19.20

That is a massive 16% fare increase overnight between Saturday and Sunday, and that's on top of any inflation-related increase to be introduced next spring. In a world where leisure travel continues to thrive, this is a nice little earner for the rail companies and will help to balance out any cheaper single and return weekday fares.

There is a way round these weekend hikes and that's to book in advance.

An Advance return from Southend to London will cost just £11.50 at the weekend, which is 40% lower than the usual £19.20. That is a proper bargain, and can be used on any train not just a specific booked service. But it of course relies on you knowing you intend to travel on a particular date, so an impromptu dash to the seaside will always be full price. Also you can only buy these from the c2c website, not from stations or a competitor's app.


c2c is not the only train company introducing revised fares this weekend - SWR, Chiltern and London Northwestern are also tweaking fares to a first tranche of near-London stations. Again this is premature, they're reacting to a contactless implementation date which keeps being kicked further into the future, but the fare changes are real and they're happening now.

Project Oval, as the expansion of contactless is called, is all about introducing TfL-style tap and go convenience across a much wider range of stations. For many people the ability to turn up for a train without the faff of buying a ticket in advance will be transformative. But moving to a fare model where you simply swipe and trust the system to charge the right amount is also dangerous because, as many are about to find out, you might well end up paying more.
 

bakerstreet

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New prices are quite interesting when crossing London.

I’m quite relieved there is not too much of a jump (and some reductions). Mind you off peak not via London fares rather suffer a significant jump.

Given contactless can cope in principle with more layers of fares, and people just need to touch in and out, it is a shame that the only relatively recently introduced Evening Out / Sunday Out (effectively Super Off Peak) are for the scrapheap.

Presumably all the other Super Off-Peaks in the SE CPAY area are similarly doomed.

In some cases, especially on some weekend lines, this will be a significant increase. Around a 30-35 percent rise in a fare I use.

There are so many variations of fares Z1-9 (TfL only, National Rail only, TfL+NR and the other oddities on Overground Euston Watford etc etc) that I’m surprised the new system is so blunt. But there it is.


Bletchley to Staines (no discounts)

After 3 Dec paper and CPAY appear to be the same so I’ve not included a separate line for these.

(Now / From 3 Dec)

+Any Permitted

Anytime Single - 48.10 / 37.00
Anytime Return - 74.00 / 74.20 (2xsgl)
Off Peak Return - 61.80 / 41.80
Cheap Day Sgl - 41.70 / 20.90
Cheap Day Rtn - 41.80 / 41.80 (2xsgl)

Via Kensington Olympia / Not Via London

Anytime Single - 34.10 / 28.50
Anytime Return - 60.30 / 57.00
Off Peak Return - 41.20 / 39.40
Cheap Day Sgl - 33.00 / 19.70
Cheap Day Rtn - 33.10 / 39.40
Eve / Sun Rtn - 28.50 / 39.40 (equivalent)
Eve / Sun Sgl - 27.50 / 19.70 (equivalent)
 

hwl

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Is the Phase 2 map up-to-date? It seems that there are some anomalies including multiple islands where accessing the national network isn't possible without going through the contactless area, such as the Uckfield, Southminster and Braintree branches. And the whole of Kent become a big non-contactless island as well once Brighton gets included.
Yes it is. Those aren't anomalies, users in those area will just carry on with current existing ticketing arrangements.
 

MikeWh

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Is the Phase 2 map up-to-date? It seems that there are some anomalies including multiple islands where accessing the national network isn't possible without going through the contactless area, such as the Uckfield, Southminster and Braintree branches. And the whole of Kent become a big non-contactless island as well once Brighton gets included.
I think Brighton is really the anomaly, rather than the whole most of Kent. The one line which I think they ought to include for simplicities sake is Tonbridge to Maidstone West so that the whole Medway Valley line accepts contactless.
 

Roast Veg

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I think Brighton is really the anomaly, rather than the whole most of Kent. The one line which I think they ought to include for simplicities sake is Tonbridge to Maidstone West so that the whole Medway Valley line accepts contactless.
Yes this seems like a bizarre omission.
 

43066

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And the whole of Kent become a big non-contactless island as well once Brighton gets included.

Eh? Looking at the map phase 2 will incorporate rather more stations in Kent than it will in Sussex! As an aside there are some near-London Kentish stations that already accept contactless payment: Knockholt, Swanley, Dartford etc.

You do realise Kent extends from the south coast right up to the London boundary!? ;)
 
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Snow1964

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I think Brighton is really the anomaly, rather than the whole most of Kent. The one line which I think they ought to include for simplicities sake is Tonbridge to Maidstone West so that the whole Medway Valley line accepts contactless.
Yes it seems to be a very strange area, would expect roughly a circle around London, but instead the boundary line varies between about 28 miles to 50 miles from centre of London.
 

hwl

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Yes it seems to be a very strange area, would expect roughly a circle around London, but instead the boundary line varies between about 28 miles to 50 miles from centre of London.
I think Brighton is really the anomaly, rather than the whole most of Kent. The one line which I think they ought to include for simplicities sake is Tonbridge to Maidstone West so that the whole Medway Valley line accepts contactless.

Some of it based on:
a) fares levels and keeping journeys under older much lower only contactless caps in 2018
b) existing TOC infrastructure (gates, readers) at stations or on sections of route (Unsurprisingly more has had to be replaced than expected hence some of the delays)
c) user levels on section of routes
d) existing deployment of TOC smartcard systems that worked 4-5 years ago (e.g. not much in Southern and GA GEML areas)
e) how much could be rolled out before the next election (in 2024)

Busier (by passenger numbers) sections of line with staffed stations and lower fares / mile were much more likely to be included.

Brighton wasn't originally included (GTR's Key working well) but the passenger numbers who would use it swung it for inclusion.

An Oval phase 3 picking up some of the gaps would be a fairly easy to rollout policy for Labour
e.g. EWR/Bicester/Oxford/Newbury/Basingstoke/Haselmere/Horsham/Uckfield/Hastings/Ashford/Canterbury East/Ipswich & Essex Branches

(Albeit that awkward questions would be asked about the future of a large number of ticket offices afterwards...)
 

CyrusWuff

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An Oval phase 3 picking up some of the gaps would be a fairly easy to rollout policy for Labour
e.g. EWR/Bicester/Oxford/Newbury/Basingstoke/Haselmere/Horsham/Uckfield/Hastings/Ashford/Canterbury East/Ipswich & Essex Branches

(Albeit that awkward questions would be asked about the future of a large number of ticket offices afterwards...)
Entering speculative territory now, but I'd suggest that it would be logical to extend all the way to Banbury rather than stopping at Bicester North and Oxford.

Down side being Chiltern would have to remove Super Off-Peaks to Banbury...but then it always struck me as an anomaly having them on Chiltern flows within the Network Area anyway.
 

MrJeeves

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To be fair, Brighton is a big tourist destination from London for people visiting the UK, and they often get caught out trying to use Contactless to Brighton.
 

miklcct

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The rail-only distance (in miles, excluding Crossrail core) from the nearest London Terminal to the proposed Phase 2 boundary, in clockwise order from the Thames:

from London Bridge:
Rainham: 35.43
Maidstone East: 36.87
Maidstone West: 40.49
Tonbridge: 28.83
Tunbridge Wells: 32.58
Hurst Green: 21.22
Wivelsfield: 40.56
Preston Park: 49.19
Brighton: 50.54
Three Bridges: 29.17

from Vauxhall:
Dorking: 20.79
Guildford: 28.63
Farnborough: 31.89

from Paddington:
Reading: 35.94
Princes Risborough: 35.04

from Euston:
Milton Keynes: 49.85

from St Pancras:
Bedford: 49.99

from Kings Cross:
Hitchin: 31.95

from Liverpool Street:
Cambridge: 55.70
Witham: 38.60
Wickford: 29.02

The closest boundary is just 20.79 miles from London while the furthest one is 55.70 miles, a massive disperancy. I hope this is just temporary and will be rectified in a later stage.
 

Recessio

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To be fair, Brighton is a big tourist destination from London for people visiting the UK, and they often get caught out trying to use Contactless to Brighton.
Especially when tourists would jump straight on a Gatwick Express to Brighton, and Gatwick station is littered with posters showing you can easily get to London with a Contactless card. I can completely understand how a tourist would reasonably assume that would also be valid down to Brighton.
 

david1212

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Diamond Geezer gives an easy to understand explanation of the changes on c2c:


On the embedded graphic it is stated
... we are introducing an evening peak on services going into or leaving a London station between 16:00 and 19:00 Mondays to Fridays (excluding bank holidays)
(my bold)

The text written by Diamond Geezer states
Importantly the new evening peak only applies to journeys heading east towards Essex. Anyone heading back into London in the evening faces no such restrictions, so if you're planning a trip to the seaside you don't have to worry when to come back.

These two statements conflict.
If global which is correct?
If there are variations depending on e.g. route, boarding station where clearly are they stated? Given the final charge will not be known until the journey is complete unlike an upfront ticket purchase this is very important.
 

Hadders

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It’s always been the case with contactless that peak fares do not apply to journeys from outside Zone 1 into Zone 1.
 

etr221

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One of the issues with this announcement is reference to 'London stations', without making it clear what this means (i.e. what they are)...

Also a lack of clarity over timing for start of the 'evening peak' - is it 'barrier time' (which is what it will for contactless)? scheduled departure time? actual departure time? actual departure time after waiting replacement train after cancellation?
 

Joe Paxton

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It’s always been the case with contactless that peak fares do not apply to journeys from outside Zone 1 into Zone 1.

Assuming of course we're just referring to the evening peak period (1600-1900)...


No, it's not always been the case. Originally peak fares were charged for journeys into Zone 1 (from outwith of Zone 1)... then TfL introduced the benefit that such journeys would be charged at the off-peak rate - but at first this only applied to the TfL mode fare scale, i.e. London Underground, DLR and London Overground services (and those NR services which for legacy reasons are charged at the TfL rate).

It was then at least a year until National Rail adopted this convention for the NR fare scale, and for multi-modal (i.e. TfL+NR) rate journeys.
 

JonathanH

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No, it's not always been the case.
To be pedantic, has it always been the case on Contactless, but not on Oyster? That is, the peak fare into Zone 1 concession was made on Oyster, before Contactless was an option?
 

Joe Paxton

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To be pedantic, has it always been the case on Contactless, but not on Oyster? That is, the peak fare into Zone 1 concession was made on Oyster, before Contactless was an option?

A very fair point!

I therefore withdraw my earlier comments made in response to @Hadders!
 

aavm

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The loss of super off peak will make a big difference for some weekend travel.

Interesting that like TFL, some peak/off-peak fares are similar, while others have a 2:1 ratio. Fares are a real mess.
 

CyrusWuff

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The loss of super off peak will make a big difference for some weekend travel.

Interesting that like TFL, some peak/off-peak fares are similar, while others have a 2:1 ratio. Fares are a real mess.
The new fares are based on the previous structure, rather than starting again from scratch.

You'd hope that TOCs will have an opportunity to tidy things up at a later date, but that would need DfT approval no doubt.
 

MikeWh

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I've not seen this mentioned, so apologies if it has been. Have there been any changes to the fare structure on the lines that already have contactless PAYG? Ie Welwyn GC, Luton AP and Reading plus branches?
 

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