Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[MikeWh]

I've just read through the last two pages or so. Very interesting stuff. I do, however, have a word of caution. The TfL PAYG fares database is the master guide to what will be charged. The entries in the database used by brfares are a copy made by humans and have often been found to be inconsistent.

The only sections which have definitely had work done on the TfL database AFAIK are c2c, TL/SE to Sevenoaks and Reigate.

Am I alone in hoping that Reigate might get added to Oyster in the same pseudo-zone as Merstham to Horley?

 

[PeterC]

Most occasional travellers will do that. But what about commuters at Reading who have got completely used to using contactless to get to London, and who are likely to be already aware that the slower route exists so feel no need to check a map. If one day some reason comes up to use the slower route (disruption on GWR? Or maybe one day you actually want to go to Richmond or somewhere in SW London?) than it's very plausible that you'll just touch in at Reading and hop on the Waterloo train on the basis that you 'know' contactless is valid from Reading to London.

Never underestimate the ability of the public to misunderstand things. At this point I normally cite the passenger insisting to an RPI that their Capitalcard (precursor of the Travelcard) was valid throughout Network SouthEast

 

[paok]

Machines have appeared on Chiltern Line. Noticed them at Seer Green (see photo) and also Denham Golf Club. Might finally signal the demise of the Permit to Travel machine at the latter.

 

[Minstral25]

I've just read through the last two pages or so. Very interesting stuff. I do, however, have a word of caution. The TfL PAYG fares database is the master guide to what will be charged. The entries in the database used by brfares are a copy made by humans and have often been found to be inconsistent.

The only sections which have definitely had work done on the TfL database AFAIK are c2c, TL/SE to Sevenoaks and Reigate.

Am I alone in hoping that Reigate might get added to Oyster in the same pseudo-zone as Merstham to Horley?

You are not alone.

Locally we have asked, asked and asked again but they won't put Reigate in the Oyster zone. Really annoying as every other station with Reigate and Banstead is within the zone.

Also, we have heard there are unexplained infrastructure problems that mean Reigate may not be in first rollout now. (I can only guess this is Internet/WiFi/Power issues for the gates, although there are KeyGo & Contactless gates already in place).

 

[JonathanH]

Expectation of a large take up of Contactless on the c2c route.

Presumably some other MPs will make announcements welcoming the 'Oysterisation' of their local routes regardless of the prices offered.

https://www.yellowad.co.uk/rail-line-set-to-go-ticketless/

Rail line set to go ticketless

Christine Sexton
Local Democracy Reporter

The busy c2c Fenchurch Street rail line is set to go ticketless by the end of the year, making ticket machines and offices “surplus” to requirements it has been revealed.

The route from Shoebury to the capital is to launch a pilot scheme which will allow travellers to use credit or debit cards to “pay as you go”, or smart tickets – digital tickets which are loaded onto smart cards or stored on mobile phones.

Announcing the scheme, Sir James Duddridge, Conservative MP for Rochford and Southend East, said the move could put an end to time-consuming queues at ticket machines.

It comes after commuters regularly complained of broken ticket machines at stations.

Sir James said: “By the end of the year we should be getting touch-in touch-out cards so c2c will be one of the pilots and we’ll be able to use our Visa cards and debit cards.

“I was always in favour of what was going to be the Oysterisation of c2c. Now tech supports that in a slightly different way.

“The focus with c2c will be having people at the station but not necessarily being in the ticket office. I suspect the ticket machines will remain for the longer journeys. In some cases you would need to collect tickets so there may be a machine for that but the vast majority of users, the people behind the screens and indeed the machines will be surplus to use.”

The East Beach Residents’ Association recently gave a 600-signature petition to save the Shoebury ticket office from closure to Mr Duddridge to present to Parliament.

Spokesman Louise Wilcox said: “We are extremely disappointed to hear that residents’ concerns appear to have been disregarded. We have consistently made the point that not all travellers wish to use their debit cards. There should be a variety of ticket purchase options. Additionally, the ticket office staff assist with planning journeys and finding the cheapest and quickest route.”

A spokesman for c2c said timings of the scheme would be announced shortly, adding: “This will offer more smart ticketing options and will help customers travel more flexibly and conveniently as well as supporting the wider economic recovery of the region through easier access to rail travel.”

 

[Hadders]

Expectation of a large take up of Contactless on the c2c route.

Presumably some other MPs will make announcements welcoming the 'Oysterisation' of their local routes regardless of the prices offered.

https://www.yellowad.co.uk/rail-line-set-to-go-ticketless/

An unfortunate choice of words in this report!

Some would already argue that the c2c line has had ticketless travel for years

MPs referring to Oysterisation when Oyster isn’t valid is poor.

It would’ve been good if they had pointed out that some journeys will be more expensive because railcards cannot be used.

 

[akm]

Expectation of a large take up of Contactless on the c2c route.

Presumably some other MPs will make announcements welcoming the 'Oysterisation' of their local routes regardless of the prices offered.

https://www.yellowad.co.uk/rail-line-set-to-go-ticketless/

There is certainly much to whatever-is-the-opposite-of-admire in this 'news' article!

 

[Verulamius]

Machines have appeared on Chiltern Line. Noticed them at Seer Green (see photo) and also Denham Golf Club. Might finally signal the demise of the Permit to Travel machine at the latter.

Machines are now at St Albans Abbey. Given that the line has ticket inspections on most trains you would think that the guard/inspectors would be able to check the cards correctly.

 

[centraluser]

Checking fares from Shoeburyness, I think we may be able to identify 47 of the 52 stations in the first phase.

Sevenoaks, Dunton Green

Bat & Ball, Otford, Shoreham, Eynsford

Reigate

High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham

Great Missenden

Shoeburyness, Thorpe Bay, Southend East, Southend Central, Westcliff-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Leigh-on-Sea, Benfleet, Pitsea, Basildon, Laindon, West Horndon

Stanford-le-Hope, East Tilbury, Tilbury Town

Luton, Leagrave

Watford North, Garston, Bricket Wood, How Wood, Park Street, St Albans Abbey

Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhampstead, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton

However, I also note a Contactless fare priced from Reading to Sevenoaks 'via Guildford', which might be imagined to be something for the next phase, as almost every station on the way is outside the planned area.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=RDG&dest=SEV

Great Missenden is not in Phase 1.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A thought has occurred to me about one possible disadvantage of contactless: If you are buying an off-peak paper ticket into London, then the restrictions on the ticket will typically be based on the time you arrive into London, not the time you depart. For example, from Alton, it's fine to use an off-peak return ticket on the 08:44 departure from Alton because, with a change at Woking, you don't get to Waterloo until 09:55, after the peak restriction ends.

But contactless, as implemented by TfL, goes by your original departure time. If Project Oval applies the same logic, then leaving at 08:44 would probably count as peak time and get charged a full anytime fare. Now I guess they could make the system more sophisticated, and charge an off-peak fare if, based on your touch-in time, you couldn't possibly arrive at Waterloo in the rush hour, but that would require knowledge of the timetable to be incorporated into the system - I'd be very surprised if they did that.

Is it possible that will lead to hidden price rises for some people?

Also there's a much more minor issue that you'll very often need to touch in a few minutes before your train leaves. That means that, if your train departs within a minute or so of the start of off-peak times, you could possibly be charged a peak fare, even though you're not actually travelling until an off-peak time.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Is it possible that will lead to hidden price rises for some people?

But a price drop for those departing before 0630. Winners and losers.

 

[MikeWh]

Also there's a much more minor issue that you'll very often need to touch in a few minutes before your train leaves. That means that, if your train departs within a minute or so of the start of off-peak times, you could possibly be charged a peak fare, even though you're not actually travelling until an off-peak time.

The peak charging periods start a few minutes later (5) and end a few minutes earlier (3) to allow for minor discrepancies in the clock time. However, the whole PAYG system revolves around touch in time, it's not attached to trains at all.

 

[akm]

Now I guess they could make the system more sophisticated, and charge an off-peak fare if, based on your touch-in time, you couldn't possibly arrive at Waterloo in the rush hour, but that would require knowledge of the timetable to be incorporated into the system - I'd be very surprised if they did that.

It's already the case that the time at which the morning peak (for capping purposes, but not for charging purposes) ends can vary by location, as shown here on MikeWh's site. It's "left as an exercise for the reader" to speculate whether this list of exceptions might be extended with Oval, or not.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's already the case that the time at which the morning peak (for capping purposes, but not for charging purposes) ends can vary by location, as shown here on MikeWh's site. It's "left as an exercise for the reader" to speculate whether this list of exceptions might be extended with Oval, or not.

Really worth emphasising the bit in bold - to paraphrase @MikeWh's description, certain stations at the extremeties of the Oyster/contactless area benefit from an earlier start to the off-peak cap.

It's broadly equivalent to an easement resulting in an earlier start time to the validity of an Off-peak Day Travelcard from certain stations.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's already the case that the time at which the morning peak (for capping purposes, but not for charging purposes) ends can vary by location, as shown here on MikeWh's site. It's "left as an exercise for the reader" to speculate whether this list of exceptions might be extended with Oval, or not.

Interesting. Seems a bit strange that they still charge peak fares although counting towards the off-peak cap though. If I'm touching in at - say - Amersham at 09:15 then there's no way I'm going to be travelling on any train that could reasonably be seen as a rush hour one, no matter what my destination is going to be, so being charged a peak fare but contributing to an off-peak cap doesn't make much sense.

 

[Snow1964]

DfT has published list of 53 which stations will be operational by end of 2023, some are lot further from London, than others not on list, eg Shepperton but not Esher

Full list of stations that will have Pay As You Go technology by the end of this year:

• Apsley
• Ashford (Surrey)
• Basildon
• Bat & Ball
• Beaconsfield
• Benfleet
• Berkhamsted
• Bletchley
• Bricket Wood
• Chalkwell
• Cheddington
• Datchet
• Denham
• Denham Golf Club
• Dunton Green
• East Tilbury
• Egham
• Eynsford
• Garston
• Gerrards Cross
• Hemel Hempstead
• High Wycombe
• How Wood
• Kempton Park
• Kings Langley
• Laindon
• Leigh-on-Sea
• Leighton Buzzard
• Otford
• Park Street
• Pitsea
• Seer Green & Jordans
• Sevenoaks
• Shepperton
• Shoeburyness
• Shoreham (Kent)
• Southend Central
• Southend East
• St Albans Abbey
• Staines
• Stanford-le-Hope
• Sunbury
• Sunnymeads
• Thorpe Bay
• Tilbury Town
• Tring
• Upper Halliford
• Virginia Water
• Watford North
• West Horndon
• Westcliff
• Windsor & Eton Riverside
• Wraysbury

53 train stations to benefit from tap-in tap-out rollout

Passengers across the South East of England will benefit from 'Pay As You Go' technology by the end of December 2023.

www.gov.uk

 

[DynamicSpirit]

DfT has published list of 53 which stations will be operational by end of 2023, some are lot further from London, than others not on list, eg Shepperton but not Esher

53 train stations to benefit from tap-in tap-out rollout

Passengers across the South East of England will benefit from 'Pay As You Go' technology by the end of December 2023.

www.gov.uk

Quickly scanning that list, it looks like the routes getting contactless by the end of the year are the lines to:

• Shoeburyness
• St Albans Abbey
• Bletchley
• High Wycombe
• Windsor and Eton Riverside
• Virginia Water via Staines
• Shepperton
• Sevenoaks via Dunton Green
• Sevenoaks via Otford

 

[jon0844]

I didn't quite catch the BBC London News report this morning as it was on in the background, but I am sure it said that from today you would be able to use your card - not that today was merely when they've announced they're adding more stations (for the end of the year).

 

[alholmes]

I didn't quite catch the BBC London News report this morning as it was on in the background, but I am sure it said that from today you would be able to use your card - not that today was merely when they've announced they're adding more stations (for the end of the year).

Correct - that’s exactly what they said on the 8.30 report. But when has accuracy ever mattered on these news reports?

 

[MKJai]

Quickly scanning that list, it looks like the routes getting contactless by the end of the year are the lines to:

• Shoeburyness
• St Albans Abbey
• Bletchley
• High Wycombe
• Windsor and Eton Riverside
• Virginia Water via Staines
• Shepperton
• Sevenoaks via Dunton Green
• Sevenoaks via Otford

Looks quite interesting that the PAYG will be extended to BLY while MKC is missed out. I guess it is because of the opposition by Avanti?

 

[Snow1964]

Looks quite interesting that the PAYG will be extended to BLY while MKC is missed out. I guess it is because of the opposition by Avanti?

London NorthWestern Railway have issued press release about 14 of their stations getting it, I assume Milton Keynes Central is not one of theirs.

Fourteen London Northwestern Railway stations to receive Pay As You Go upgrade

Fourteen stations operated by London Northwestern Railway (LNR) are to receive upgraded Pay As You Go technology as part of a major £20 million government...

www.mynewsdesk.com

 

[JaJaWa]

DfT have posted a map of the 53 stations going live in December 2023



Source: https://twitter.com/transportgovuk/status/1676124212921094144

 

[Haywain]

DfT have posted a map of the 53 stations going live in December 2023

View attachment 138538

Source: https://twitter.com/transportgovuk/status/1676124212921094144

I wonder where the extension from St Albans Abbey is going to, and when it opens? Seriously, it's a poor map because it gives the impression that Virginia Water to Reading will be included.

 

[Ibex]

Looks quite interesting that the PAYG will be extended to BLY while MKC is missed out. I guess it is because of the opposition by Avanti?

MKC, Wolverton, Northampton and Long Buckby are in phase 2 but when that is I don't know!

 

[Sunil_P]

DfT has published list of 53 which stations will be operational by end of 2023, some are lot further from London, than others not on list, eg Shepperton but not Esher

• Apsley NEED
• Ashford (Surrey) GOT
• Basildon GOT
• Bat & Ball NEED
• Beaconsfield NEED
• Benfleet GOT
• Berkhamsted NEED
• Bletchley GOT
• Bricket Wood GOT
• Chalkwell GOT
• Cheddington NEED
• Datchet NEED
• Denham GOT
• Denham Golf Club GOT
• Dunton Green NEED
• East Tilbury NEED
• Egham NEED
• Eynsford NEED
• Garston GOT
• Gerrards Cross NEED
• Hemel Hempstead NEED
• High Wycombe GOT
• How Wood NEED
• Kempton Park GOT
• Kings Langley NEED
• Laindon NEED
• Leigh-on-Sea GOT
• Leighton Buzzard NEED
• Otford GOT
• Park Street NEED
• Pitsea GOT
• Seer Green & Jordans NEED
• Sevenoaks GOT
• Shepperton GOT
• Shoeburyness GOT
• Shoreham (Kent) NEED
• Southend Central GOT
• Southend East GOT
• St Albans Abbey GOT
• Staines GOT
• Stanford-le-Hope GOT
• Sunbury GOT
• Sunnymeads NEED
• Thorpe Bay GOT
• Tilbury Town NEED
• Tring NEED
• Upper Halliford GOT
• Virginia Water GOT
• Watford North GOT
• West Horndon NEED
• Westcliff GOT
• Windsor & Eton Riverside GOT
• Wraysbury NEED

 

[JonathanH]

Seriously, it's a poor map because it gives the impression that Virginia Water to Reading will be included.

The interim fare from Reading to Virginia Water will be interesting, as one will be defined, even if only valid via Ealing Broadway (or Paddington).

I wonder where the extension from St Albans Abbey is going to, and when it opens?

It will be interesting to see if there is an Out of Station Interchange defined between St Albans Abbey and St Albans (City).

 

[swt_passenger]

…Seriously, it's a poor map because it gives the impression that Virginia Water to Reading will be included.

Also, their Windsor & Eton Riverside seems to be a through station…

 

[Richardr]

Watford North is also misplaced on that map - it isn't on the line to Bletchley.

 

[Benjwri]

Also, their Windsor & Eton Riverside seems to be a through station…

To be fair there could be a via Windsor fare defined, and changing by walking between the two is something journey planners do offer.

 

[Haywain]

Watford North is also misplaced on that map - it isn't on the line to Bletchley.

Whereas Pitsea is misplaced, in reality having a direct connection to Stanford-le-Hope.