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Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

Hadders

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Neither would you pass through underground gates at Farringdon coming via Stevenage, or Finsbury Park. Charging extra for Kings Cross (only) for the mixed mode premium would be consistent with what is done elsewhere, but weren't we originally talking about differentiation for Liverpool Street and Kings Cross for journeys that end in London.

Yes we were. But the complication is, people who do Cambridge to some other destination in London without ever using the exit gates at any London terminus (such as, touch in at Cambridge, touch out at Tottenham Court Road or at White City, etc.). Unless you provide pink validators, you have no idea whether the person has travelled via Stevenage or via Bishops Stortford, so have no idea which routing to charge for.

Indeed, so you remove the price differential and just charge the same fare. Is there a capacity need to continue to push passengers via Bishops Stortford once all the revenue goes to the same place?
You'll never ompletely replicate the current fares structure with contactless. Most people using contactless won't be aware of the fares they're being charged anyway and are highly unlikely to be swayed by a slightly differential fare on a particular route.

That said, every possible journey will have a default route. If desired an alternative route can be determined either by a pink validator (for a cheaper fare than the default)or by touches at an intermediate barrier lines en-route when changing (for a more expensive or cheaper journey).

In the specific case of Cambridge you could charge a more expensive fare by changing at Kings Cross or St Pancras or a cheaper fare by changing at Tottenham Hale or Liverpool Street. I suspect that only cheaper fares to Liverpool Street would exist in reality, fares to an underground station would probably be the same whichever route was taken.

The other thing to consider is daily caps as I don't think there's any facility for a differential cap delending on the route taken.
 
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duffield

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With the big caveat that weekends are my only experience of travelling to London, the fast trains to King's Cross are horribly overcrowded. The Liverpool Street trains aren't. But the semi-fast and stopping services to King's Cross/St Pancras also aren't overcrowded. If the price differential is no longer about TOC revenue (Greater Anglia versus Great Northern/Thameslink) and is actually about encouraging people to use the less busy trains, you need a way to differentiate "fast train to KGX" from "eveything else to KGX/STP and LST".
I suppose you could calculate the shortest possible journey time on the non-fast services and charge the higher rate for any journey taking less, as you've got the contactless tap in/out times. If you get from tap in to tap out in less than 1h5m in this case, you must have travelled on the fast service.
I guess a passenger could delay tapping out to get the lower fare but that would be self defeating! Also, the operator would have to accept that in times of disruption the lower fares might be charged "incorrectly".

Obviously adding capacity to the fast services would be better but it's not always feasible.
 

Sonic1234

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Most people using contactless won't be aware of the fares they're being charged anyway and are highly unlikely to be swayed by a slightly differential fare on a particular route.
This. Contactless is about growing ridership by convenience and hiding the fares. The traditional cash at a ticket office, or online sales, makes you very aware of the cost of the journey and if it's worth it. Contactless is "tap the magic card and go", without thinking of the cost for most. It makes the railway more like car travel, where pricing an individual journey is hard (yes, the fares are out there somewhere and you can register with TfL, or check your bank statement, but how many do?)

I doubt many Oyster and Contactless users set of on a journey thinking "this will cost me £x", or know about TfL, NR and mixed mode fares.
 

Kite159

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Or . . . dare I say . . . increase the 8 coach trains to 12 coaches? I know the Thameslink CBG - BTN trains are usually 12 car, but the "express" trains are normally 8 coach. My experience is similarly at weekends, but Cambridge is one of those "tourist magnets" . . . and Kings Cross Main Line is where tourists head for, rather than the Thameslink dungeon.

This is, of course, a drawback to Project Oval . . . harmonisation of fares isn't always the best way. Having said that, the cheaper fares from Liverpool Street obviously aren't working, if the GN trains are still overcrowded!!
Isn't the reason why they are normally only 8 coaches on the fast services is due to interworking with the stopping services to Letchworth/Cambridge which can only be 8 coaches due to the level crossings at a couple of the quieter stations?
 

JonathanH

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Contactless is "tap the magic card and go", without thinking of the cost for most. It makes the railway more like car travel, where pricing an individual journey is hard (yes, the fares are out there somewhere and you can register with TfL, or check your bank statement, but how many do?)
As we come back to from time to time, that is all very well when the fares are under £5, and there is a cap of £15, but looking at Reading, where the fares to Paddington are £29 single peak and £12.60 single off-peak, passengers need to give it a bit more thought.

However, the big caveat to that is that if single fares at those levels are the only fares available, then passengers don't really have an option, and can rely on a best price guarantee that Contactless is no more expensive than any other option. Then it does just become a matter of convenience and more like car travel. The lack of a railcard option at present is a problem in that context.
 

Trainbike46

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Under GBR those things shouldn't matter though. The journey is London to Cambridge with all money going into the same pot, and it isn't necessarily true that the services on the Liverpool Street line are cheaper to provide.
The reason to offer cheaper fares on one route vs the other would be to balance demand based on available capacity on each route
Having different fares for different services and different operators is one of the things which users of the railway find most confusing.

Clearly one approach would be to have a different price for touching out at Liverpool Street and Kings Cross or St Pancras, and the other places mentioned above, but is that desirable?

Project Oval is a matter of fares reform and simplification, which is what lots of people call for on this forum. As ever, it involves winners and losers.
If it helps balancing the loadings on the two routes, I would say it IS desirable.

Coming from Cambridge, you could change to a Stratford train anywhere between Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale, and then change to TfL services at Stratford. So you would need pink readers at Stratford too in your scenario (Stratford already has them on the Overground platforms but I'm not sure about the rest of the station).
There's also pink readers at the DLR platforms
Yes certainly at the weekend trains from Kings Cross to London are packed. You need to encourage some use of the capacity on the Liverpool Street line or lengthen services
Unfortunately there is limited possibility to lengthen services to/from Cambridge due to platform length restrictions at King's Cross

With the big caveat that weekends are my only experience of travelling to London, the fast trains to King's Cross are horribly overcrowded. The Liverpool Street trains aren't. But the semi-fast and stopping services to King's Cross/St Pancras also aren't overcrowded. If the price differential is no longer about TOC revenue (Greater Anglia versus Great Northern/Thameslink) and is actually about encouraging people to use the less busy trains, you need a way to differentiate "fast train to KGX" from "eveything else to KGX/STP and LST".
you could approximate that because the fast services would always use the NR gateline at KGX (they don't stop at Finsbury Park) - so charge more if those gatelines are used. This would still charge more if the passenger used a slow or semi-fast service into King's Cross, but would apply the discount to passengers travelling with the semi-fast Thameslink, as well as the Liverpool Street route, and slow service passengers travelling to Finsbury Park.

Isn't the reason why they are normally only 8 coaches on the fast services is due to interworking with the stopping services to Letchworth/Cambridge which can only be 8 coaches due to the level crossings at a couple of the quieter stations?
So at least 3 reasons for the 8-car length limit for most (not all) services on the route
 

akm

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I suppose you could calculate the shortest possible journey time on the non-fast services and charge the higher rate for any journey taking less, as you've got the contactless tap in/out times. If you get from tap in to tap out in less than 1h5m in this case, you must have travelled on the fast service.

What you have described is of course in principle possible, but it's not part of the existing functionality of the TfL contactless back office.
 

DynamicSpirit

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What you have described is of course in principle possible, but it's not part of the existing functionality of the TfL contactless back office.

I'm not sure that's quite true. The existing functionality does check your journey times, both so that it can charge a maximum fare if you've exceeded the maximum allowed journey time between two places, and also to check interchange time at Out of Station Interchanges, in order to determine if your journey counts as a single journey or two separate journeys. So it probably wouldn't be that much different to charge different rates depending how long your journey takes.

However, I don't think the idea of charging more for faster journeys from Cambridge (assumed to be on faster trains) would work: It would break down as soon as you consider journeys that require a change of train that can be made without exiting ticket gates at Kings Cross/Liverpool Street (Cambridge to Kentish Town, Cambridge to Tottenham Court Road, etc.) because the variable timings when you change train would make it almost impossible to devise any simple rule that could determine with any accuracy which route you took.
 

Harryeurostar

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I'm not sure when this went live, but the new Stations have now been added to the TfL single fare finder for the first trains today!
 

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DynamicSpirit

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I think some TfL's single fare finder needs some work for Project Oval destinations.

A journey from Embankment to Staines comes up as £9.80 off-peak, but with an alternative fare of £7.80 if you avoid Zone 1. Answers on a postcard to how you travel from Zone 1 while avoiding Zone 1. The explanation of the 'Avoiding Zone 1' fare appears to include a disclaimer: "Avoiding Zone 1 - Changing between National Rail, London Underground or London Overground - Touch Pink reader where available. Or for journeys that finish within Zone 1 that include a change onto London Overground before completing the journey.". I assume the bit that I've italicised is supposed to be the bit that allows an Embankment-Staines journey, but the wording seems baffling: I cannot make out how it applies - especially since I can't think of any sensible route that would use the London Overground at any point.

There's also a third option. Via Zone 1 / London terminals, which funnily enough is the same price as the 1st option - £9.80 off-peak.

I can only think of two sensible routes from Embankment to Staines: Via the District line to Richmond, or via Waterloo National Rail, touching in/out at Waterloo. So what's the 3rd option for?

Abbey Wood to Staines is similarly confusing: For that route, I can think of about 4 options that would probably justify different fares:

1. National Rail all the way, changing at Waterloo
2. Elizabeth line/LUL to Waterloo or Vauxhall, then National Rail.
3. District line to Richmond - hence no touching in/out en-route.
4. Avoiding Zone 1 by using either the MildMay line Stratford-Richmond, or the Windrush line WhiteChapel-Clapham Junction. A slow route which you'd expect would save a bit of money.

But the single fare finder shows only two options: A default option for £7.10 off-peak, or "via Zone 1 / London Terminals" for £10.30 off-peak. It's not at all clear whether that means, "via zone 1 OR via London terminals" or "via zone 1 AND including a London terminal touch-in", which means for some of the possible routes, I have no idea what fare I'd actually be charged.
 

akm

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I'm not sure that's quite true. The existing functionality does check your journey times, both so that it can charge a maximum fare if you've exceeded the maximum allowed journey time between two places, and also to check interchange time at Out of Station Interchanges, in order to determine if your journey counts as a single journey or two separate journeys. So it probably wouldn't be that much different to charge different rates depending how long your journey takes.
It wouldn't be that much different, no. It would however be more than zero different, because it's not part of the current functionality of the back office software...
 

JonathanH

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The current fare structure at GTR stations getting Contactless later this year seems to have survived next month's fare increase, so I think we can assume that the Project Oval extension is towards the end of the year, but there is something like a 10.8% increase in the weekend super off peak day return fares from 2 March.
 

winks

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The current fare structure at GTR stations getting Contactless later this year seems to have survived next month's fare increase, so I think we can assume that the Project Oval extension is towards the end of the year, but there is something like a 10.8% increase in the weekend super off peak day return fares from 2 March.
Can you elaborate on this ?
 

JonathanH

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CyrusWuff

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Yes, but in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/2025-fares-from-2-march-2025-now-in-journey-planners.281125/

The purpose of my message above was primarily to note that I didn't observe any fare structure changes to the 47 stations mentioned here as being in the next phase of Project Oval https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-42#post-7126917
Changes for all the stations in Phase 1 should have taken place in December 2023.

My guess is that the intention for Phase 2a (at least I'm assuming that's what it's being referred to as, given the overall plan was for 200+ stations and there are currently around 100 accounted for) will be to have traditional fares changing on the same day as it goes live.
 

vmlemon

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Have they given up on updating the "London's Rail, and Tube Services" map, under the weight of the complexity, of all of the recent changes? It looks like the last version, on TfL's Website, is from September 2024, and includes the Luton DART, but not the High Wycombe extension, which went live, a while ago.
 

A S Leib

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Have they given up on updating the "London's Rail, and Tube Services" map, under the weight of the complexity, of all of the recent changes? It looks like the last version, on TfL's Website, is from September 2024, and includes the Luton DART, but not the High Wycombe extension, which went live, a while ago.
Not directly related, but projectmapping.co.uk's given me a privacy error whenever I've tried accessing it in the past few weeks, either on a phone or laptop.
 

mattdickinson

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Have they given up on updating the "London's Rail, and Tube Services" map, under the weight of the complexity, of all of the recent changes? It looks like the last version, on TfL's Website, is from September 2024, and includes the Luton DART, but not the High Wycombe extension, which went live, a while ago.
The London and South East 2025 map is now present on the National Rail website.

London and South East map

I wouldn't expect the coverage of the London map to extend any further.
 
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zero

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Not directly related, but projectmapping.co.uk's given me a privacy error whenever I've tried accessing it in the past few weeks, either on a phone or laptop.
They haven't renewed their SSL certificate, but it doesn't matter because we are not giving them any personal information
 

Adam Williams

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They haven't renewed their SSL certificate, but it doesn't matter because we are not giving them any personal information
TLS is just as important for data integrity as it is for confidentiality. If you aren't happy with the idea of being redirected to download malware or being served a zero-day exploit, then perhaps not great to get into the habit of ignoring cert warnings.
 

Verulamius

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Now that the St Albans Abbey line is contactless does Watford Junction need the touch in/out points in the subway for the mainline platforms?
 

Bletchleyite

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Now that the St Albans Abbey line is contactless does Watford Junction need the touch in/out points in the subway for the mainline platforms?

Watford Junction is still the boundary for Oyster card users.

I suppose it depends how many might continue to MKC and beyond on a separate e-ticket. I'd imagine at least some Avanti passengers will.

Are there any already? People might arrive on the Overground, touch out and continue on an e-ticket.
 

JonathanH

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Another story about an impatient member of parliament trying to find out about the roll out of Contactless in their area.
Contactless train tickets rollout questioned by MP

Emily Sinclair
BBC News, South East
Published
8 hours ago

A Surrey MP has written to the Minister for Rail, Lord Hendy, to ask for clarity on the rollout of a contactless payment system at the county's railway stations.

Chris Coghlan, the Liberal Democrat MP for Dorking and Horley, told BBC Radio Surrey that he wanted to know why some stations had not been included in the plans, and a clear timeline for those that have.

The letter comes after eight more stations across Surrey joined the rollout scheme on 2 February.

A spokesperson from the Department for Transport (DfT) said: "We recently announced that throughout 2025 contactless ticketing will be rolled out at Dorking, Box Hill and Westhumble, Reigate and Leatherhead stations, and we are looking at the next phase of the rollout across the country."

'Reduces queues'
The latest stations to receive the contactless payment system are Ashford (Surrey), Staines, Egham, Virginia Water, Kempton Park, Sunbury, Upper Halliford and Shepperton.

The rollout had been delayed after a cyber attack, Transport for London (TfL) confirmed in September.

"It's a great scheme, it's great for convenience and reduces queues," Mr Coghlan said.

The DfT said the ticketing system was "too complicated" and that the contactless system meant passengers would be "guaranteed the best fare available" when they travel.

Mr Coghlan said: "It's quite easy to buy the wrong ticket so hopefully it should address that."

Jaqueline Starr, chief executive of Rail Delivery Group, said: "We want our customers to travel with ease with fares that reflect travellers' needs."

Passengers will still be able to continue to use pre-paid barcode and paper tickets, said the Rail Delivery Group.
Many of the usual clichés about convenience, complicated tickets, and best prices in this story.
 

778

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There still does not seem to be any 1600-1900 restrictions on off peak fares on the GWML as far as Reading (including the Thames Valley branches) like there is in the rest of the contactless area? An off peak ticket from Hemel Hempstead to Slough is £27.80. It is not valid for trains arriving in London before 10am Mondays to Fridays but you can return on any train. Or if you use contactless you will only be charged the peak fare if you arrive in London before 10am.
 
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wildcard

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Now that the St Albans Abbey line is contactless does Watford Junction need the touch in/out points in the subway for the mainline platforms?
Subway readers at Watford Junction have been in place for many years - longer than I can remember . They can be found at the foot of the stairs from platforms 7/8 and the subway entrance/exit to the Abbey platform - possibly similarly for 9/10 and the steps to 1-4. There is also a reader at the entrance/exit to the car park on platform 9 . It's just possible if you sit in the right carriage to step off a London bound train , tap in and jump back on. I use this when arriving on a paper ticket . Contactless beyond Watford is not much use to me at present as my Senior railcard is not supported - but for the odd peak time journey to London, I can tap contactless in at my station , contactless out on the platform 9 reader, then tap in on the same reader with Oyster after 9:30. You can't use this method going north - there isn't enough time to run down to the foot of the 7/8 stairs , tap and return hoping to re-join your train.
 

JonathanH

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Or if you use contactless you will only be charged the peak fare if you arrive in London before 10am.
The single fare finder shows that Hemel Hempstead to Slough has the usual peak restrictions for Contactless PAYG in both directions - ie peak fare applies for a touch in between 0630 and 0930 and between 1600 and 1900. There is no facility for Contactless PAYG to charge fares based on the time a touch happens in London.

It looks like the 'paper' ticket has a not before 10am in London restriction and nothing in the afternoon as you say, but the electronic restrictions prevent travel on GWR from Paddington between 4pm and 7pm.

There doesn't appear to be any sign of DfT's 'best price guarantee' on Contactless PAYG here. However, as paper tickets allow break of journey, it is near impossible for the restrictions to apply in exactly the same way.
 
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