Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[cle]

But isn't there a plan to icnrease said capacity? Everyone here is a bit focused on the now, when this intention is already underway.

Separately, running 'ECS' from St Pancras to Stratford, where the trains received passengers (also Ebbsfleet/Ashford if desired) - might be workable. The cars can line up on the platform, overload of attendants (which they need to cut back on) - and fundamentally humans need to use their brains. This happens at Shinagawa and Ueno every few minutes - people board quickly and it goes.

You can control this through ticketing as well (if St P was in the mix) - either incentivize boarding at other stations by price, sell a specific quantity, or don't sell at all - and tickets are invalid from St Pancras. And consider it a P2P set up, like an airline. Stratford and St Pancras being different ports. Tons of solutions.

 

[Mawkie]

The ORR have suggested there is space for other operators at Temple Mills.

Rail regulator says some capacity can be made available at Eurostar depot​

31 March 2025
The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) says Eurostar’s London depot would be able if required to accommodate additional trains, following its receipt of an independent report it commissioned to investigate the matter. The report, published today, assessed the capacity at the operator’s Temple Mills International facility.

The rail regulator added that changes to operational and maintenance arrangements at the depot, as well as possible alterations to infrastructure, would be required to access extra capacity and allow more trains to be stabled/maintained there.
The independent report was commissioned by ORR following growing interest in providing extra services between St Pancras and continental Europe. Access to a suitable depot close to London for maintenance and storage has been cited by industry as a critical requirement for more operators to take on the route.

Following publication of the report, stakeholders are now being asked to provide evidence that they believe would support or change ORR’s initial findings.
Stakeholders have until 28 April to submit their evidence, and ORR’s final conclusions will be published after the regulator has considered their responses

 

[TheGrew]

I was about to post this similar story https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ins-eurostar-competition-virgin-b1219745.html
It sounds like there is some capacity but not lots. Hopefully enough to allow an operator to prove the market before Temple Mills is expanded or another depot is built.

 

[TheWierdOne]

The ORR have suggested there is space for other operators at Temple Mills.

Does anyone have details on what exactly the ORR have decreed? More capacity could cover a range from 1 extra train per day to multiple extra trains per hour, although I would assume it’s somewhere around in the range of 5-6 extra trains per day up to 1-2 extra trains per hour subject to St Pancras border capacity upgrades.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone have details on what exactly the ORR have decreed? More capacity could cover a range from 1 extra train per day to multiple extra trains per hour, although I would assume it’s somewhere around in the range of 5-6 extra trains per day up to 1-2 extra trains per hour subject to St Pancras border capacity upgrades.

My understanding is that there is now a chance for all parties to reply with their views on the report, and the ORR will then make their decision.

 

[MarkyT]

My understanding is that there is now a chance for all parties to reply with their views on the report, and the ORR will then make their decision.

Clearly there's capacity on the depot for processing and stabling more sets. There's no discussion on the commercial aspects. Who would do the servicing and maintenance of the sets. Would a new operator be forced to contract such work to EIL or could a part of the depot be set aside for them and their own staff? Clearly they'd still have to use some common services such as the tanking/CET and washer roads. Could maintenance here be limited to light tasks only, not extending to bogie drops, wheel reprofiling etc, assuming a new operator had facilities elsewhere for that work on the continent?

 

[TheWierdOne]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2025-03/ipex-temple-mills-depot-independent-capacity-assessment-2025.pdf

There’s a link to the ORR report on Temple Mills here!

The key point is that the consultants reckon an extra 4-8 sets could be accommodated, rising to 5-9 extra sets if a decommissioned Eurostar unit is removed. Both would require some rejigging of current operational practices.

 

[martin2345uk]

The report says the whole depot has a 5kph speed limit, but it’s actually 25kph, and 8kph within the main shed. (Bogie drop/wheel lathe excluded obviously).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The report says the whole depot has a 5kph speed limit, but it’s actually 25kph, and 8kph within the main shed. (Bogie drop/wheel lathe excluded obviously).

Since 8km/h is almost exactly 5mph, maybe some coversion issues happened.

 

[Trainman40083]

Does anyone have details on what exactly the ORR have decreed? More capacity could cover a range from 1 extra train per day to multiple extra trains per hour, although I would assume it’s somewhere around in the range of 5-6 extra trains per day up to 1-2 extra trains per hour subject to St Pancras border capacity upgrades.

The press appear to be reporting today, that Virgin have got access to Temple Mills depot and will be running trains to Europe in time

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone have details on what exactly the ORR have decreed? More capacity could cover a range from 1 extra train per day to multiple extra trains per hour, although I would assume it’s somewhere around in the range of 5-6 extra trains per day up to 1-2 extra trains per hour subject to St Pancras border capacity upgrades.

Capacity at Temple Mills International​

ORR has received an independent report, which indicates that Eurostar’s London depot would be able if required to accommodate additional trains. The report, commissioned by ORR, assessed the capacity at the operator’s Temple Mills International facility. Stakeholders are now being asked to provide evidence that they believe would support or change the findings. Stakeholders have until 28 April to submit their evidence, and ORR’s final conclusions will be published after the regulator has considered their responses

Office of Rail and Road April 2025 newsletter | Office of Rail and Road

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[zwk500]

The press appear to be reporting today, that Virgin have got access to Temple Mills depot and will be running trains to Europe in time

The ORR have decided that there is space available for an additional operator, but I don't believe they have granted any access rights to specific TOCs yet.

 

[Meerkat]

Still interested who owns the depot, as it really doesn’t seem fair that Eurostar lose their flexibility and potential for expansion, and suffer significant inconvenience, for the gain of a competitor

 

[crablab]

Eurostar lose their flexibility and potential for expansion, and suffer significant inconvenience, for the gain of a competitor

Eurostar show no sign of using that capacity or increasing provision to meet demand, choosing to raise prices instead.
Why should a competitor be blocked from challenging Eurostar, because the incumbent is flexing a monopoly position over the only UIC depot in the UK?

 

[Peterthegreat]

That cannot currently raise capacity due to the constraints at St Pancras.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Still interested who owns the depot.

Eurostar International Limited.

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar International Limited.

Is that confirmed? I thought Eurostar had a long-term lease from HS1 Ltd.

HS1 publishes a document stating that Eurostar is the operator of the depot, and gives detail for access applications. The fact that HS1 publishes this, suggests to me that they are involved in some way.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221006154314/https://highspeed1.co.uk/media/kpfhrm2h/eil-tmi-sfd-final-2022-v1.pdf

Though I cannot find the up to date version on the St Pancras high speed website's regulatory page: https://stpancras-highspeed.com/our-company/regulatory/regulatory-docs/

Still interested who owns the depot, as it really doesn’t seem fair that Eurostar lose their flexibility and potential for expansion, and suffer significant inconvenience, for the gain of a competitor

I assume Eurostar will take the chance to respond to the report and highlight any issues they see

 

[zwk500]

Is that confirmed? I thought Eurostar had a long-term lease from HS1 Ltd.

HS1 publishes a document stating that Eurostar is the operator of the depot, and gives detail for access applications. The fact that HS1 publishes this, suggests to me that they are involved in some way.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221006154314/https://highspeed1.co.uk/media/kpfhrm2h/eil-tmi-sfd-final-2022-v1.pdf

Though I cannot find the up to date version on the St Pancras high speed website's regulatory page: https://stpancras-highspeed.com/our-company/regulatory/regulatory-docs/


I assume Eurostar will take the chance to respond to the report and highlight any issues they see

In HS1's Network Statement there is this line:

2.4.10 HS1 Emergency Access Code
...
(b) in respect of Temple Mills Depot, the Depot Facility Owner is EIL. EIL is currently in the process of recalculating charges for Temple Mills Depot. Information and rates will be advised by the contact person for Temple Mills Depot specified in section 1.8.2;

 

[Trainbike46]

In HS1's Network Statement there is this line:

That seems pretty definite

 

[Meerkat]

So it’s a bit like the council telling you that you must let a neighbour park on your drive, even if it means you can’t park in the garage any more and have less flexibility.

 

[LLivery]

If it was always meant to allow multiple operators, how did Eurostar end up owning the Depot?

 

[RT4038]

If it was always meant to allow multiple operators, how did Eurostar end up owning the Depot?

Do they own it?

In HS1's Network Statement there is this line:

2.4.10 HS1 Emergency Access Code
...
(b) in respect of Temple Mills Depot, the Depot Facility Owner is EIL. EIL is currently in the process of recalculating charges for Temple Mills Depot. Information and rates will be advised by the contact person for Temple Mills Depot specified in section 1.8.2;

Is not really conclusive legal proof as to the owner, as opposed to lessor and/or operator?

 

[zwk500]

If it was always meant to allow multiple operators, how did Eurostar end up owning the Depot?

Was it always meant to allow multiple operators?

Is not really conclusive legal proof as to the owner, as opposed to lessor and/or operator?

AIUI LCR are themselves a Concessionaire, so the answer as to who ultimate owns the depot may well be the DfT.

 

[LLivery]

Do they own it?


2.4.10 HS1 Emergency Access Code
...
(b) in respect of Temple Mills Depot, the Depot Facility Owner is EIL. EIL is currently in the process of recalculating charges for Temple Mills Depot. Information and rates will be advised by the contact person for Temple Mills Depot specified in section 1.8.2;

Is not really conclusive legal proof as to the owner, as opposed to lessor and/or operator?

Actually, you're right - this is from the ORR:

The operator of a depot is known as a depot facility owner. Other train operators, or third parties procuring depot services on behalf of a train operator (known as beneficiaries), who want to use the depot must enter into an access agreement with the depot facility owner. If the agreements are not approved by us, they are invalid.

Interestingly, there's a diagram on the same webpage, which calls Depot Facility Owners leaseholders.

In a document linked from that page, it says:

The majority of depots in Great Britain are leased by Network Rail to a depot
facility owner (DFO). The DFO operates the facility. Most depots are operated by
a train operating company operating in accordance with an agreement awarded by
DfT or Scottish Ministers. Some depots, however, are operated by train
manufacturers or other third parties.

So, sounds like it's owned by HS1.

Was it always meant to allow multiple operators?

AIUI LCR are themselves a Concessionaire, so the answer as to who ultimate owns the depot may well be the DfT.

According to Richard Thorp (HS1 COO), yes.

The depot was always intended to be a shared facility and it’s positive that some of this spare capacity can be accessed without any changes and further capacity can be unlocked through targeted upgrades and operational changes.

Whether that's true in reality...

 

[TheWierdOne]

According to Richard Thorp (HS1 COO), yes.

Whether that's true in reality...

Why was the whole ORR showdown necessary? Surely HS1/LSHS would’ve been able to clear the debate up themselves?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do they own it?


2.4.10 HS1 Emergency Access Code
...
(b) in respect of Temple Mills Depot, the Depot Facility Owner is EIL. EIL is currently in the process of recalculating charges for Temple Mills Depot. Information and rates will be advised by the contact person for Temple Mills Depot specified in section 1.8.2;

Is not really conclusive legal proof as to the owner, as opposed to lessor and/or operator?

Eurostar are the Depot Facility Owner, ie they lease the depot from London St Pancras High Speed (the concessionairre formerly known as HS1).

AIUI, only the Depot Facility Owner can perform maintenance at a depot they lease, so if the ORR do find that Eurostar have to provide capacity for maintenance of other operators’ trains at the depot, then those other operators will have to reach an agreement with Eurostar for the costs of the maintenance services provided, and arrangements for it. I will leave others to figure out how that might work in practice.

 

[RT4038]

Why was the whole ORR showdown necessary? Surely HS1/LSHS would’ve been able to clear the debate up themselves?

I should imagine that there would a conflict of interest between the owner and the lessor, and that a more neutral party was required to clear up the debate?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The train service could be split I.e. An English service between London and Berwick and a Scottish between Berwick and Edinburgh with the border and controls between the two. That would avoid needing passport controls at multiple stations. Eurostar and competitors have fewer options than services that cross land borders.

That sounds awful, who would want to vote for that

 

[Chester1]

That sounds awful, who would want to vote for that

The EU doesn't pre negotiate as a point of principle therefore it's unlikely to promise a Schengen opt out during an independence referendum. That means Scots would have to vote hoping for continuation of the CTA but being prepared for border controls at some point if the EU refuses to grant an opt out or Westminister decides it doesn't want an open border. The two options for border controls are basically what I have described (used lot outside of Europe) or how border controls work for Eurostar (I.e. border controls and segregated platforms at intermediate stops). The relevance to Eurostar is that it's kinda stuck because the rail border is under the sea and that makes serving intermediate stops harder because they need passport control. Lack of domestic passenger flows has a knock on affect on the viability.

 

[crablab]

So it’s a bit like the council telling you that you must let a neighbour park on your drive, even if it means you can’t park in the garage any more and have less flexibility.

I'm not sure the analogy really works
a) as discussed above, Eurostar don't actually own the depot - it's leased to them by the infrastructure maintainer
b) the lease and users of the depot are regulated by the ORR