Proposed new SWT services for Yeovil, including Pen Mill via Westbury/Frome

[swt_passenger]

Its Official now.

Isn't a track access application (TAA) official anyway? This is just a public announcement effectively drawing attention to the TAA; it doesn't make the proposals any more or less likely.

 

[D6975]

There are intended to be additional DMUs available following the full 458/5 and 456 introduction because as well as the Lymington shuttle going EMU 7/7 there are other DMU diagrams running purely on third rail that will go full time EMU - probably on a one for one 450 replace 159 basis.

Does a 159 run a Pompey via Eastleigh service all day still? I recall seeing it at Eastleigh last year a couple of times. That gives one extra set.

 

[21C101]

Isn't a track access application (TAA) official anyway? This is just a public announcement effectively drawing attention to the TAA; it doesn't make the proposals any more or less likely.

It's one thing sending in a form that is only circulated within the rail industry (available to the public if you know where to look but not adbvertised to the public)

Its another thing issuing a press release to all and sundry saying you are going to do it providing the regulator allows you to. No backing down now without losing credibility.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does a 159 run a Pompey via Eastleigh service all day still? I recall seeing it at Eastleigh last year a couple of times. That gives one extra set.

Not all day, but some of the peak extras on the overall route (collectively the 'South Hampshire locals'), up in the morning and down in the afternoon (e.g. from Basingstoke to various destinations) are still 159 operated.

There's a 158 that comes down in the mid afternoon from Salisbury, ECS to Portsmouth Harbour, then runs to Eastleigh about 1700 ish, then sits in the siding at Eastleigh until forming the 0030 to Portsmouth Harbour.

There's one particular oddball in the evening peak, a stopper that runs from Winchester to Totton - and reverses in Totton sidings so needs to be a DMU unless they do something else with it.

 

[DaveHarries]

There's one particular oddball in the evening peak, a stopper that runs from Winchester to Totton - and reverses in Totton sidings so needs to be a DMU unless they do something else with it.

Just been looking on RTT. The train from Winchester arrives in Totton at 1711 so perhaps this relates to it? A rather long ECS if so.

5B98 1713 Totton to Basingstoke Bartn Ml C.S.D.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W94515/2015/03/12/advanced

Looking at RTT I can't see what else might relate to that terminating Winchester to Totton service despite the differing platforms.

Dave

 

[Drsatan]

Not all day, but some of the peak extras on the overall route (collectively the 'South Hampshire locals'), up in the morning and down in the afternoon (e.g. from Basingstoke to various destinations) are still 159 operated.

Is the 0751 service from Southampton Central to Portsmouth Harbour still 159-worked? When I used the service 12 months ago it was 159 operated.

Seeing as it's a busy service popular with commuters (many of whom have bikes) and schoolkids, it needs something longer than a 159

 

[swt_passenger]

Just been looking on RTT. The train from Winchester arrives in Totton at 1711 so perhaps this relates to it? A rather long ECS if so.

5B98 1713 Totton to Basingstoke Bartn Ml C.S.D.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W94515/2015/03/12/advanced

Looking at RTT I can't see what else might relate to that terminating Winchester to Totton service despite the differing platforms.

Dave

Yes that's the return ECS to Barton Mill, but what I was getting at is that the reverse in Totton Yard DGL is on an unelectrified line, so cannot be replaced 'as is' by an EMU.
Looks like today's run didn't reverse in the Yard because it ran a half hour late, tomorrow shows the normal move from P2 then back into P1.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes that's the return ECS to Barton Mill, but what I was getting at is that the reverse in Totton Yard DGL is on an unelectrified line, so cannot be replaced 'as is' by an EMU.
Looks like today's run didn't reverse in the Yard because it ran a half hour late, tomorrow shows the normal move from P2 then back into P1.

Would there be enough time to run it through to Brockenhurst I wonder?

I didn't realise that Portsmouth Harbour/Eastleigh 158 so wasteful of a unit.

Of course there also used to be the 16 & 17:24s from Basingstoke to Southampton / Portsmouth Harbour which also used to use one of the 158/159s which sat in Basingstoke for the majority of the day which changed to Electric at last year. Does the 22:XX to Portsmouth Harbour still use a 158 or has that now gone to a EMU?

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course there also used to be the 16 & 17:24s from Basingstoke to Southampton / Portsmouth Harbour which also used to use one of the 158/159s which sat in Basingstoke for the majority of the day which changed to Electric at last year. Does the 22:XX to Portsmouth Harbour still use a 158 or has that now gone to a EMU?

Dec 2014 Working Notices for this timetable period show:

1624 PMH now runs as a 450 at 1626

1724 SOU still 3.159

2221 PMH still 3.159

I keep meaning to produce a current list of all the odd SWT DMU workings that cover third rail from end to end, it seems a regular discussion point, so here's an attempt, any updates/corrections welcome:

SWT DMU passenger workings over third rail - Dec 14 timetable

(Lymington Branch not included to save repetition)

2L88 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo 6.159

2B89 0655 Basingstoke to Southampton Ctrl 3.159

2B93 1724 Basingstoke to Southampton Ctrl 3.159

2T69 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth Hbr 3.159

2T75 0030 Eastleigh to Portsmouth Hbr 2.158

2T14 0500 Portsmouth Hbr to Basingstoke 6.159

2E24 0933 Portsmouth Hbr to Southampton Ctrl 3.159

2T92 1649 Portsmouth Hbr to Eastleigh 2.158

2B98 0542 Southampton Ctrl to Eastleigh 6.159

2E13 0751 Southampton Ctrl to Portsmouth Hbr 3.159

2B94 1817 Southampton Ctrl to Winchester 3.159

2B91 1638 Winchester to Totton 3.159

2B95 1905 Winchester to Southampton Ctrl 3.159

 

[HarleyDavidson]

2T14 0500 Portsmouth Hbr to Basingstoke & 2L88 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo are the same train, it's used as a congestion buster for Fleet & Farnborough, it then goes 0820 Waterloo - Exeter. It's also a way of keeping traction knowledge for FR crews. Just as the late one's are.

It also does stock rotation to get the units back to Sarum for their maintenance cycles. So it may seem wasteful but it serves those two purposes.

 

[swt_passenger]

2T14 0500 Portsmouth Hbr to Basingstoke & 2L88 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo are the same train, it's used as a congestion buster for Fleet & Farnborough, it then goes 0820 Waterloo - Exeter. It's also a way of keeping traction knowledge for FR crews. Just as the late one's are.

I was aware of that but decided to simplify the table, and order it by origin station. As they run under two separate head codes I don't think they are shown as a through service in the public timetable?

Thing is, with what's leaking out about the possible changes this December, will maintaining traction knowledge for Fratton crews actually be necessary at all? It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation - in an ideal world the only DMUs you'd see at Fratton would be FGW's...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I was aware of that but decided to simplify the table, and order it by origin station. As they run under two separate head codes I don't think they are shown as a through service in the public timetable?

Thing is, with what's leaking out about the possible changes this December, will maintaining traction knowledge for Fratton crews actually be necessary at all? It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation - in an ideal world the only DMUs you'd see at Fratton would be FGW's...

They also do some of the Romsey Rockets via Chandlers Ford (don't remind me of it!) to give some of the SA crews their necessary PNBs.

FR are quite protective about the diesel work and I think if they lost it there would be a bit of an exodus from there to either AXC or DBS/FLMM/FLHH, because there's an awful lot of "Double London's" there.

So you may do a 1Pxx up, 2Pxx down, 1Txx up & 1 or 2Txx down or variations on that theme, which makes things very boring, repetitive & monotonous! I never minded it. It's a darn sight better than dealing with the SW London suburban drivel.

 

[TEW]

2T14 0500 Portsmouth Hbr to Basingstoke & 2L88 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo are the same train, it's used as a congestion buster for Fleet & Farnborough, it then goes 0820 Waterloo - Exeter.

There's a way of easily sorting out that interworking though. Currently a 6-159 off the 0543 Salisbury-London Waterloo goes ECS to Basingstoke Sidings, sits there all day and splits to form the two evening peak diagrams for 159 on the Hampshire Locals. With a small amount of shuffling in Waterloo in the morning you can resource a 6-159 set for the 0820 London Waterloo-Exeter. An 8-car 450 can then be allocated to 2T14/2L88, run ECS to Basingstoke and then cover the two evening peak Hampshire Locals. Indeed AFAIK this is the plan once more 450s are available.

 

[evergreenadam]

Saturday observations - the three car 159s on the Salisbury-Waterloo diagrams are not sufficient to meet the demand in both directions - Salisbury has strong contra-flow demand from tourists, thank goodness those services don't stop at Clapham Junction. They will be even busier if they are extended to Yeovil. The 6 car 159s from Exeter are also very busy, so two trains an hour to Yeovil would help to spread the demand.
A mix of four and eight cars would be more sensible off-peak - shame the route is not electrified as then EMUs would be the perfect length!

 

[TEW]

Loading may have been greater today because of the diverted FGW passengers, the fares promotion and the bank holiday. In my experience the 3-car 159s have ample capacity for Off Peak Salisbury terminators.

 

[evergreenadam]

It appears that SWT are planning a lot of new services on the West of England route from December 2015. Roughly speaking

1) Six trains a day from Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill, reopening the line.

2) Two a day Waterloo to Yeovil Junction via Westbury & Pen Mill

3) One a day Yeovil Pen Mill to Exeter.

4) One extra a day Honiton to Exeter.

5) Summer Saturdays: Waterloo - Salisbury - Gillingham Yeovil Jn - Yeovil Pen Mill - Weymouth, two each way per day.

6) Sats Waterloo - Wareham (with 159), then Wareham - Bourne - Bournemouth Wareham - Wareham Waterloo - I wonder where that might go before long.....

Details here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 22 - closes 23 march 2015/58th sa form p.pdf

The Network Rail PDF link is broken, does anyone have a copy or a new link?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Network Rail PDF link is broken, does anyone have a copy or a new link?

Ah, that will be because the consultation period has ended so it will have been moved to the 'completed consultations' sub-section of the track access web pages:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 22 - closes 23 march 2015/58th sa form p.pdf

Incidentally these TAAs are still pretty hard to find if you don't already know where to look, why the heck don't NR have a logical way to navigate to them rather than just a link on the freight pages?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, I'm joking. or am I (strokes cat)....




If both lines are under the same management, the management will concentrate their efforts on the current main intercity route to Paddington, they will welcome any revenue the Southern route brought but you would find an end to attractive fares to London on the Southern route, Waterloo trains caped at Yeovil Junction when GW trains are diverted that way (which used to happen under BR and in the early days of SWT until SWT put a stop to it - meaning longer journey times for diverted GW trains and fewer of them) etc.

The management just won't have the time for much initiative on a "secondary route" and will find it very tempting to borrow some of the 159s to overcome the famous GW stock shortages elsewhere, leading to unreliablity and overcrowding. You certainly wouldn't see initiatives such as the proposed trains to Yeovil Pen Mill.

Do you think any of the Evergreen upgrades would have happened if Marylebone to Birmingham had been part of the West Coast Main Line Franchise? The route would still be largely single track with one an hour venturing north of High Wycombe and terminating at Banbury.

It would also be disastrous for operational reasons, meaning more than one operator into congested Waterloo (which is why the plan to move it to Wessex Trains got canned) and disrupting the current successful SWT NR alliance and amounting to an Orcats raid on SWT between Basingstoke and Waterloo.

Agree. 100%.

 

[embers25]

I see that this week there are what are presumably route learners for the summer Weymouth SWT service:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q31202/2016/01/25/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q31320/2016/01/25/advanced

Does this mean tehs ervice is definitely going ahead?

 

[swt_passenger]

I see that this week there are what are presumably route learners for the summer Weymouth SWT service:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q31202/2016/01/25/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q31320/2016/01/25/advanced

Does this mean the service is definitely going ahead?

Summer Saturdays only, it was approved by ORR in the 58th supplementary agreement. SWT have the rolling stock, so is there any reason now why it wouldn't go ahead?

 

[TEW]

You can already see the services in Open Train Times.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W96674/2016-05-28

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W97039/2016-05-28

 

[Taunton]

Orcats raid on GW's Yeovil to Weymouth summer daytripper traffic?

 

[455driver]

Orcats raid on GW's Yeovil to Weymouth summer daytripper traffic?

That's the way I read it!

There is a lot of 'mucking about' around Yeovil way with the Councils (not GWR) wanting to extend the Devon Metro out to Axminster (even though GWR havent got the stock to do it yet) and this is SWTs way of retaliating.

Of course if they (SWT) showed any interest in running the extra Exeter to Axminster services there wouldn't be any of this nonsense would there!

 

[TEW]

Orcats raid on GW's Yeovil to Weymouth summer daytripper traffic?

Probably trying to attract some new traffic with a well timed service for daytrips to Weymouth from stations which previously faced a rather difficult or long journey to get to Weymouth. Stations Overton-Sherborne are the ones I'm thinking of.

 

[Taunton]

There's quite a bit of summer day trip traffic from Yeovil to Weymouth (its nearest resort), always has been, and the service capacity is really run for the convenience of operating it all the way from Bristol. Not unknown for southbound trains to arrive at Pen Mill on a busy summer weekend morning with all seats already taken.

 

[30907]

Orcats raid on GW's Yeovil to Weymouth summer daytripper traffic?

Does an ORCATS raid work where a different station is involved? The Pen Mill stop isn't public.

 

[Muzer]

Does an ORCATS raid work where a different station is involved? The Pen Mill stop isn't public.

Looks public to me?

 

[dgl]

definatly public, there is a poster at pen mill with the times from junction to waterloo/Exeter and it includes the new services from junction to pen mill and vice versa. they are shown seperatly though (well except for the one that goes via castle cary)

 

[30907]

Looks public to me?

I was referring to the summer Weymouth train as per the OTT link above, as was Taunton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course if they (SWT) showed any interest in running the extra Exeter to Axminster services there wouldn't be any of this nonsense would there!

It isn't up to SWT to 'show interest' in running the extra services, as DfT have already clearly stated (in the 2015 GW franchise agreement) that they will be operated by the GW franchisee.

It was also to be a GW franchise responsibility in the previous 2012 franchise spec that was abandoned.