Proposing new rail services that currently do not exist!

[4-SUB 4732]

Ok you have been tasked to create direct links between stations which currently do not exist.

No new infrastructure should be required to create the service you propose

I'll start:

extend LNER's Lincoln service twice a day to Cleethorpes via Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes using Class 800's.

Do you have shares in something that pay out when you tout this one?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Extend (or introduce a new service) the Brighton to Southampton Central services to Bournemouth to provide links across the south coast

Introduce an additional hourly Southampton to Bristol/Cardiff GWR service (extending to Brighton every two hours)

Norwich to York (via ECML?) to improve Norfolk's connections with the North?

Extend to Milton Keynes - East Croydon service to Brighton southwards, (or Gatwick if no paths south of Three Bridges), and Birmingham northwards.

The idea of an hourly Brighton - Bournemouth to give connectivity across the South Coast is vastly better than that ludicrous Portsmouth - Weymouth and would be welcomed. Either that, or offer it from Victoria and do a major ORCATS raid and fill it up with advance ticket holders.

Not sure about Norwich to York when you’re surely better just giving a ~15 minute connection each way off the Newark, Doncaster, York and stations to Edinburgh train?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It is a shame.

I was thinking of another one, what about Hull to Southampton and Reading by diverting the Newcastle to reading service this may free up space for a Saltburn/Middlesborough to Newcastle service. The reason for this service is to improve connections to Hull.

The only way to make this work is to remove the Manchester - Hull (via Leeds at least), and then turn over the Cross Country Leeds route service to go to Hull.

In reply, make the Cross Country Doncaster route service go north to Scotland, with TPE picking up the slack (or just make people change at York!).

It seems likely the new Manchester - Sheffield fast will be extended to Hull via Doncaster anyway and as it’s been slowed down to pick up old Northern stops like Mossley a Premier South TPE service would do the trick.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What about extending the Hull-Manchester Piccadilly service to Manchester Airport?

Can you prove capacity exists for this?

Why must everything be a direct service instead of people just getting super frequent shuttles to the Airport?!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why not extend the Northern Liverpool-Leeds service to Hull, extend the Crewe-Nottingham service to Manchester Airport and introduce an hourly Liverpool to Leicester service

The first one lacks paths, the second would only work if the Northern service is revoked (capacity) and the third is that ludicrous TfN idea that quite frankly just needs to be in the bin.

First post... or first for many years but I’ve long had a weird obsession with the Northern City Line () and reckon a first class only Leeds-Moorgate and Edinburgh-Newcastle-Moorgate service l would be cool, one down for each route in the morning and back up in the evening, aimed at people with meetings in the city, similar to the LCY-JFK flights that ba do.... perhaps they could use 6 car Azumas

Or 717s with ‘mega facilities’ - an all First Class with silver service dining and the units can do 110mph with minor mods. It would be a bit hellfire to have a ~0915 arrival (just after the bulk of peak) from Leeds, and a ~1645 back. Start it at Bradford Forster then fast to Leeds, Wakefield and non-stop to Moorgate. I’d have to give it a go for novelty value alone!

Leeds - Stansted via Cambridge

Not in love with this one but who knows what the future holds!

Manchester I can see demand for maybe from Piccadilly (Manchester-Leicester and East Midlands Parkway), I can also see demand for a St Pancras to Leeds service for people of Leicester and Derby to Leeds BUT not to Glasgow, the East Coast struggled to compete post WCML upgrade so the MML would be even worse.

Demand from Manchester to Leicester and Derby hinges on speed. You’d have to re-open Bakewell as a main line (let’s be honest that would be good for the Hope Valley anyway just getting the freight off) before you can make a meaningful punch into that market.

It also really only works if the trains stop at Bedford (East West) and Kettering (for Corby etc) then Leicester, East Mids Parkway and then off to wherever.

 

[RLBH]

Glasgow Queen Street to Dundee via Fife. I reckon there's a fair bit of latent demand for Fife to Glasgow and vice versa. Dundee is just a convenient place to terminate it.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Glasgow Queen Street to Dundee via Fife. I reckon there's a fair bit of latent demand for Fife to Glasgow and vice versa. Dundee is just a convenient place to terminate it.

Well this one is interesting. A station at Kirkliston and routing the train ‘direct’ up via Kirkcaldy etc would be better if a solid connection could be provided each direction at Inverkeithing to/from Dunfermline.

 

[krus_aragon]

There is no Crewe - Nottingham service; it's Crewe - Derby.

It used to go to the Airport. It was very, very little used.

EMR have said they'll be extending the Crewe-Derby service to Nottingham, though.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The only way to make this work is to remove the Manchester - Hull (via Leeds at least), and then turn over the Cross Country Leeds route service to go to Hull.

In reply, make the Cross Country Doncaster route service go north to Scotland, with TPE picking up the slack (or just make people change at York!).

It seems likely the new Manchester - Sheffield fast will be extended to Hull via Doncaster anyway and as it’s been slowed down to pick up old Northern stops like Mossley a Premier South TPE service would do the trick.

To be fair, most people from Hull on the TPE service aren't going any further west than Leeds anyways, although at the same time I doubt XC would do so, at least from a revenue perspective, seen as though they wanted to reroute the Doncaster service to go via Leeds recently. I also don't know anyone who would want to go to Birmingham or further south instead of Manchester.

I'm not particularly against XC serving Hull though.

 

[RLBH]

Well this one is interesting. A station at Kirkliston and routing the train ‘direct’ up via Kirkcaldy etc would be better if a solid connection could be provided each direction at Inverkeithing to/from Dunfermline.

Exactly my thinking - it's ridiculous that to get from East Fife to Glasgow you have to travel into Edinburgh and back out again, nearly doubling the length of the journey. I had to buy a car because of the impracticality of doing the trip without one.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

Would there be any advantage in, or scope for, squeezing any trains from Finsbury Park to connect to the Overground going south to Shoreditch etc?
Or put the other way around, services from south London and Shoreditch, instead of terminating at Highbury & Islington, heading north to connect to Victoria line and great northern lines at Finsbury Park?

 

[JKF]

That would be a handy connection (for Thameslink too) but I think the connnecting spur is single track in a tunnel so would need major engineering to build a link. Would ideally need grade separation too as it’s a busy line and a flat crossing would be disruptive. Not really worth it given there is a direct connecting service from H&I.

 

[Ken H]

The first one lacks paths, the second would only work if the Northern service is revoked (capacity) and the third is that ludicrous TfN idea that quite frankly just needs to be in the bin.



Or 717s with ‘mega facilities’ - an all First Class with silver service dining and the units can do 110mph with minor mods. It would be a bit hellfire to have a ~0915 arrival (just after the bulk of peak) from Leeds, and a ~1645 back. Start it at Bradford Forster then fast to Leeds, Wakefield and non-stop to Moorgate. I’d have to give it a go for novelty value alone!



Not in love with this one but who knows what the future holds!



Demand from Manchester to Leicester and Derby hinges on speed. You’d have to re-open Bakewell as a main line (let’s be honest that would be good for the Hope Valley anyway just getting the freight off) before you can make a meaningful punch into that market.

It also really only works if the trains stop at Bedford (East West) and Kettering (for Corby etc) then Leicester, East Mids Parkway and then off to wherever.

a few Manchester -Chesterfield - Derby -Nottingham services that don't do the sheffield reversal would do that. Is the Dore south curve usable by passenger trains?

Edit - serving Derby, Nottingham and leicester will always be difficult.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That would be a handy connection (for Thameslink too) but I think the connnecting spur is single track in a tunnel so would need major engineering to build a link. Would ideally need grade separation too as it’s a busy line and a flat crossing would be disruptive. Not really worth it given there is a direct connecting service from H&I.

If you could re-build Drayton Park significantly (which is needed anyway!), then it could be advantageous but as is already said it’s single track from Highbury Vale to Canonbury West; and therefore you are somewhat limited in terms of how many trains per hour could be provided. Peak time might be the only time it works but it wouldn’t be possible to go through to Shoreditch, perhaps Stratford Platform 12.

 

[The Ham]

I've suggested this on this forum before, however:

A new Ascot to Basingstoke service it would require a new grade separated junction at Frimley Green, but that's about it as there's likely to be enough paths North of there and West of there.

It could extend to Manydown (new housing development between Basingstoke and Oakley of a few thousand homes) which would require a short extension of electrification (but would then reduce the costs for any future electrification project for the WofE line). By doing so it would mean that there was no extra movements across the flat junction at Basingstoke.

It could also allow new stations to be opened as well as giving Camberley a new route to London (via a change at Farnborough Main) which would be faster than the existing options and at a station with lifts.

An hourly service could require 3 units, whilst at 2tph it would be 5 units.

Given tne length of the layover at Ascot for the existing services, which limits the platform availablity, it could well be that the two would be worked as a single diagram.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

That would be a handy connection (for Thameslink too) but I think the connnecting spur is single track in a tunnel so would need major engineering to build a link. Would ideally need grade separation too as it’s a busy line and a flat crossing would be disruptive. Not really worth it given there is a direct connecting service from H&I.

If you could re-build Drayton Park significantly (which is needed anyway!), then it could be advantageous but as is already said it’s single track from Highbury Vale to Canonbury West; and therefore you are somewhat limited in terms of how many trains per hour could be provided. Peak time might be the only time it works but it wouldn’t be possible to go through to Shoreditch, perhaps Stratford Platform 12.

Ok fair enough.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

What about through services Kings Cross - Cambridge - Newmarket - Bury St Edmunds.

I imagine there must be capacity issues but even if it was diverting Ely services to Newmarket (at least ELy has some direct services), you could have some combination of through (peak?) services to/from Newmarket/Bury with additional substitute Cambridge-Ely services?

Could even King Cross to Norwich via Cambridge be competitive time/cost wise for some operator?

 

[Tobbes]

What about through services Kings Cross - Cambridge - Newmarket - Bury St Edmunds.

I imagine there must be capacity issues but even if it was diverting Ely services to Newmarket (at least ELy has some direct services), you could have some combination of through (peak?) services to/from Newmarket/Bury with additional substitute Cambridge-Ely services?

Could even King Cross to Norwich via Cambridge be competitive time/cost wise for some operator?

KX-Cambs-Norwich won't be time competitive with the GEML end-to-end (c. 2 hours vs c. 100 mins), but it would depend on where you were coming from/going to in London as getting somewhere other than the City isn't great with Liverpool St at the moment - but CR1 should ease that. Electrification and faster Norwich-Cambs would be welcome, though.

 

[Clip]

Be good if there was something that went to Blackburn via that junction just after Leyland - its a bit of a pain having to change at Preston at times - especially if the Colne one is on one of the bays and you're on 1

 

[CaledonianBlue]

KX-Cambs-Norwich won't be time competitive with the GEML end-to-end (c. 2 hours vs c. 100 mins), but it would depend on where you were coming from/going to in London as getting somewhere other than the City isn't great with Liverpool St at the moment - but CR1 should ease that. Electrification and faster Norwich-Cambs would be welcome, though.

Interesting. If Norwich-Cambs electrified and speeded up - a big if, perhaps - then some time could be shaved off, on top of saving of transfer time at Cambridge added in?

I'm not saying it would be my top priority; and if a nationalised railway you can see why they'd prioritise GEML as you said; but for a difference of what would be less than 20 mins, it seems like the kind of thing a privatised railway ought to be trying for, though? esp if it could compete on fare, other service factors, etc. (is there any parallel with Chiltern line to Oxford?)

 

[Tobbes]

Interesting. If Norwich-Cambs electrified and speeded up - a big if, perhaps - then some time could be shaved off, on top of saving of transfer time at Cambridge added in?

I'm not saying it would be my top priority; and if a nationalised railway you can see why they'd prioritise GEML as you said; but for a difference of what would be less than 20 mins, it seems like the kind of thing a privatised railway ought to be trying for, though? esp if it could compete on fare, other service factors, etc. (is there any parallel with Chiltern line to Oxford?)

You'd want to speed up the Breckland Line to 100mph as much as possible (current 75-90, IIRC, I'm not sure if any of it is capable of being increased to 125?) and then it would be Norwich - Ely - Cambs North - Cambs - KX. I don't know the size of the Norwich to London flows, but I'm not sure that even on the current part-privatised railway would see enough of a margin to run such a service, even if electrification were complete (and I don't see the Breckland Line getting electrified soon, unless @Bald Rick knows differently.)

 

[Bald Rick]

No chance.

 

[Tobbes]

No chance.

Thanks, I feared not.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

OK so if there is no chance to make London-Norwich via Cambridge competitive, one wonders for the vision of different private companies competing over different routes?

For starters, off the top of my head, clockwise from the Thames to the ECML, how many cases are there? London-Southend? London-Hertford?

I mean London-Hull is the same route (LNER/Hull trains).... etc. But it seems it is not viable to attempt alternative competitive routes anywhere else?

 

[NoMorePacers]

OK so if there is no chance to make London-Norwich via Cambridge competitive, one wonders for the vision of different private companies competing over different routes?

For starters, off the top of my head, clockwise from the Thames to the ECML, how many cases are there? London-Southend? London-Hertford?

I mean London-Hull is the same route (LNER/Hull trains).... etc. But it seems it is not viable to attempt alternative competitive routes anywhere else?

I wouldn't really say that LNER and Hull Trains are competing. As in, I rarely see LNER marketing/advertising around Hull (if at all), whereas Hull Trains have quite a bit of advertising set up here. Also it's one train a day versus seven.

 

[MontyP]

Having just made a tortuously slow journey from Woking to Bristol, I’d suggest a direct Woking to Reading service.

Also Bristol to Oxford.

 

[The Ham]

Having just made a tortuously slow journey from Woking to Bristol, I’d suggest a direct Woking to Reading service.

Also Bristol to Oxford.

Woking to Reading would be a difficult one to facilitate, even going via Heathrow once both the Southern and Western Approaches are built you'd be looking at 47 minutes with a 5 minutes change at Heathrow. This is about the same time as it takes on the trains (ignoring the time taken to change trains at Basingstoke) currently.

I'm now sure that any other route would gain you any extra time, unless there was a way to get a train between Farnborough North and Woking which could get it sub 40 minutes between Woking and Reading rather than the current ~1 hour.

Oxford Bristol would be more likely.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Liverpool is due to get direct services to Glasgow and Cardiff in the next few years but a direct service linking Liverpool and Bristol would probably be just as popular. I'm not sure what route would be possible but Bristol > Cheltenham > Hereford > Chester > Liverpool would provide a lot of useful new connections between the West Country and the Welsh marches.

 

[JKF]

Liverpool to Bristol (via New St) and onwards to Plymouth or Cornwall was a regular service in the 80s, often with a Class 50 on the front from Birmingham. When did those services stop?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If you want something along the Marches, you'll be better off looking to emulate the Holyhead premier every 2 hours throughout the day. Some examples:

- Continue the two-hourly Holyhead 'Premier', with stops at Newport / Cwmbran / Abergavenny / Hereford / Ludlow / Shrewsbury / Wrexham / Chester etc.
- Add another two-hourly service from Cardiff, stopping only at Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe before continuing north to Preston etc. Seek a headline journey time from Cardiff to Crewe of just 2h19. This would provide countrywide connections including, for example, South Wales to Liverpool / Manchester / Scotland without needing to use Birmingham.