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Prosecution for Invalid Railcard with no information printed out

js123

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I bought a 16-25 railcard when I was 17 and was given to me without any of the expiry dates or any other information printed out on the second card. My main card still had my name, picture and card reference. As my first one I assumed this was how they came and used it. I was never asked for a railcard until recently at 22 years old in Bristol as I also don't take the trains as often to be asked. When I provided my railcard I was taken to be interviewed and when the railcard was put in the system it also highlighted that it was valid on October 2023 and had no history in the system. I explained my misunderstanding and I assumed there would be some fault in the rail system providing an invalid card but have settlement offer of 625.90 for 5 rail tickets which add up to £61.85. Is there a valid argument to being provided an invalid card from the start or is this not worth fighting? The inspector agreed that he has never seen a fault like this before with a railcard so I wasn't sure what would happen if there was a case against me. I could use some insight into this if anyone has any?

I understand the argument of you should've know but as a teenager I just didn't know as I assume railcard would run from 16-25.

In the picture was my railcard which would have my ID and then the other card which would have all the information on it that I gave to the employee to be printed but would just have the labels but no information I gave or about the card printed.
 

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transportphoto

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You mention two cards. Did the first card have an expiry date? I’m guessing you took it out of your wallet once that expiry date had been and gone.

The photo card clearly says it’s only valid with a railcard bearing the same number.

I’m not sure how you’ve been provided with an invalid card “from the start”?
 

AlterEgo

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I bought a 16-25 railcard when I was 17 and was given to me without any of the expiry dates or any other information printed out on the second card. My main card still had my name, picture and card reference. As my first one I assumed this was how they came and used it. I was never asked for a railcard until recently at 22 years old in Bristol as I also don't take the trains as often to be asked. When I provided my railcard I was taken to be interviewed and when the railcard was put in the system it also highlighted that it was valid on October 2023 and had no history in the system. I explained my misunderstanding and I assumed there would be some fault in the rail system providing an invalid card but have settlement offer of 625.90 for 5 rail tickets which add up to £61.85. Is there a valid argument to being provided an invalid card from the start or is this not worth fighting? The inspector agreed that he has never seen a fault like this before with a railcard so I wasn't sure what would happen if there was a case against me. I could use some insight into this if anyone has any?

I understand the argument of you should've know but as a teenager I just didn't know as I assume railcard would run from 16-25.

In the picture was my railcard which would have my ID and then the other card which would have all the information on it that I gave to the employee to be printed but would just have the labels but no information I gave or about the card printed.
Were you given back the other part of the railcard? Where is that now?
 

js123

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You mention two cards. Did the first card have an expiry date? I’m guessing you took it out of your wallet once that expiry date had been and gone.

The photo card clearly says it’s only valid with a railcard bearing the same number.

I’m not sure how you’ve been provided with an invalid card “from the start”?
Hi there,

There was a second card which has a section where it would have the expiry date printed when I received it, however this was not the case and almost no information was on it but it still had the railcard bearing on it. Almost like a form that hadn't been filled out. The inspector said this can happen when the ink gets rubbed off but then said mine clearly had nothing printed on it. Unfortunately I don't have it as he took it for 'evidence' or to be destroyed which is why I'm checking as my main piece of evidence he took. When they scanned that card in the system had 1 record of my railcard being used in Oct 2023. I did try to keep the railcard but he said I wasn't allowed to leave with that part as it would allow me to use it again.

I've attached a picture of what I think the second card used to look like but of course without the rest of the information, the only bit that was on it was the number and Issued to.
 

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Haywain

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I bought a 16-25 railcard when I was 17 and was given to me without any of the expiry dates or any other information printed out on the second card.
Where did you obtain this 'railcard' - did you buy it at a station or did someone sell it to you, and how much did you pay? It sounds to me as if you might have been scammed.
 

js123

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Where did you obtain this 'railcard' - did you buy it at a station or did someone sell it to you, and how much did you pay? It sounds to me as if you might have been scammed.
I bought it from Westbury Railstation at the Ticket office and paid £30 for it
 

Snow1964

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I bought it from Westbury Railstation at the Ticket office and paid £30 for it

Do you know when it was bought (by checking a credit card or bank statement), although you might have paid cash.

The £30 version is a one year card.

Unfortunately the ones printed by a till use ink that is nowhere near as robust, as those of years ago when a rubber date stamp was stamped on a ink pad and good mark of ink added the date
 

WesternLancer

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So your Railcard (the part taken from you by staff to prevent further use - for obvious reasons if it no longer showed an expiry date) would indeed have looked a bit like the one you have shown and should have had a date under 'Expiry Date' - a few questions that may help people give you the best advice

a) are you really sure that the bit of the Railcard you gave up had no sort of date under the 'Expiry Date' section - from when you bought it? (this is relevant but given you no longer have the card or an image of it you can't prove that to the Railway now - ie that it was a mis print, although it would seem likely that it might have once had a date but in the subsequent years this has rubbed off - if you failed to read the date and understand it's expiry then I don't think you have much of a defence on that point...)

b) You say you got it when you were 17 but are now aged 22. Roughly when (just the year) did you buy it and thus when did it expire - 1 year later ?

c) Have you ever had another Railcard since? (I don't understand why they told you when stopped that it was valid in October 2023 if it expired about a year after you bought it when you were 17

d) Which Railway company are you dealing with now - in terms of who has written to you?

e) They are asking for: "£625.90 for 5 rail tickets which add up to £61.85."
so this is 61.85 worth of tickets and a fairly large admin fee to settle the case? (it might help to upload the letter you have had without your personal details showing)

If you had no railcard that was valid since you were 18 this might be to cover a fair few journeys, but they are only asking for 5 tickets worth of journeys.

So the question to me is what is the make up of the balance that gets this to £625? That may be a question you could ask them but as this is an unusual case it will probably help if you weigh up other people's thoughts on how to progress this. there is no doubt you will be asked other questions so people can try to understand what has happened and give you the best advice on the way forward/ what to do.
 

Haywain

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I bought it from Westbury Railstation at the Ticket office and paid £30 for it
Well, that doesn't sound right but as it was 5 years ago there isn't much you can do about it now if it really didn't have an expiry date. You should have been given the leaflet when you made the purchase, which would have been stamped as a receipt and should have shown the expiry date there as well.
nfortunately the ones printed by a till use ink that is nowhere near as robust,
Thermal printing, no ink required. It can fade though.
 

js123

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Do you know when it was bought (by checking a credit card or bank statement), although you might have paid cash.

The £30 version is a one year card.

Unfortunately the ones printed by a till use ink that is nowhere near as robust, as those of years ago when a rubber date stamp was stamped on a ink pad and good mark of ink added the date
I believe i paid cash as I was 16-17 and can't see it on my bank statements and specifically looked at the dates they provided me from my history which makes me more confused as at the train station in Bristol they said they found no historical records when they searched it
 

Haywain

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the train station in Bristol they said they found no historical records when they searched it
Railway stations do not have access to historical railcard purchase information.
 

js123

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So your Railcard (the part taken from you by staff to prevent further use - for obvious reasons if it no longer showed an expiry date) would indeed have looked a bit like the one you have shown and should have had a date under 'Expiry Date' - a few questions that may help people give you the best advice

a) are you really sure that the bit of the Railcard you gave up had no sort of date under the 'Expiry Date' section - from when you bought it? (this is relevant but given you no longer have the card or an image of it you can't prove that to the Railway now - ie that it was a mis print, although it would seem likely that it might have once had a date but in the subsequent years this has rubbed off - if you failed to read the date and understand it's expiry then I don't think you have much of a defence on that point...)

b) You say you got it when you were 17 but are now aged 22. Roughly when (just the year) did you buy it and thus when did it expire - 1 year later ?

c) Have you ever had another Railcard since? (I don't understand why they told you when stopped that it was valid in October 2023 if it expired about a year after you bought it when you were 17

d) Which Railway company are you dealing with now - in terms of who has written to you?

e) They are asking for: "£625.90 for 5 rail tickets which add up to £61.85."
so this is 61.85 worth of tickets and a fairly large admin fee to settle the case? (it might help to upload the letter you have had without your personal details showing)

If you had no railcard that was valid since you were 18 this might be to cover a fair few journeys, but they are only asking for 5 tickets worth of journeys.

So the question to me is what is the make up of the balance that gets this to £625? That may be a question you could ask them but as this is an unusual case it will probably help if you weigh up other people's thoughts on how to progress this. there is no doubt you will be asked other questions so people can try to understand what has happened and give you the best advice on the way forward/ what to do.
I'll try to answer you're questions as best as possible to my knowledge, unfortunatley the information they told me to what I've recieved 6 months later is different which is why I am confused.

a. I am certain it had no expiry date from when I bought it, this was something I expressed to him while he recorded the interview. He even commented that usually rubbed off would be the case but he said it looked so clean and I said I have never had to provide it to anyone for years there would be no rubbing that would get rid of all the ink, smudges included which he agreed.

b. I bought it when I was 16 or 17, most likely 17 so I would assume expired in 2019, but on the system when he took me to the ticket office to pull the data from the card it said it was valid from October 2023. This was one big confusion for me and both staff members.

c. No railcard since which is why they were more confused why it was valid.

d. Great Western Railway

e. So this is more confusing as he asked me to show my trainline account history which only had 6 tickets, then in the email I have recieved it now says a total of 16 rail journeys "between 22 September 2019 to 18th July 2023." so this can be the additional costs and I am trying to find this information but I don't understand where it came from as I was told the railcard had no history in person.

I think my biggest issue is I understand the reasoning and I have potentially been guilty due to negligence as a teenager, but the problem I'm having is none of the facts are adding up from what I was told inperson to now being sent a bill. I assume I can request the evidence of the inspectors recording and the card he took?
 

WesternLancer

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I'll try to answer you're questions as best as possible to my knowledge, unfortunatley the information they told me to what I've recieved 6 months later is different which is why I am confused.

a. I am certain it had no expiry date from when I bought it, this was something I expressed to him while he recorded the interview. He even commented that usually rubbed off would be the case but he said it looked so clean and I said I have never had to provide it to anyone for years there would be no rubbing that would get rid of all the ink, smudges included which he agreed.

b. I bought it when I was 16 or 17, most likely 17 so I would assume expired in 2019, but on the system when he took me to the ticket office to pull the data from the card it said it was valid from October 2023. This was one big confusion for me and both staff members.

c. No railcard since which is why they were more confused why it was valid.

d. Great Western Railway

e. So this is more confusing as he asked me to show my trainline account history which only had 6 tickets, then in the email I have recieved it now says a total of 16 rail journeys "between 22 September 2019 to 18th July 2023." so this can be the additional costs and I am trying to find this information but I don't understand where it came from as I was told the railcard had no history in person.

I think my biggest issue is I understand the reasoning and I have potentially been guilty due to negligence as a teenager, but the problem I'm having is none of the facts are adding up from what I was told inperson to now being sent a bill. I assume I can request the evidence of the inspectors recording and the card he took?
OK - thanks for answering those questions.

I think the focus is on question (e)

Back office GWR they can look at any online ticket purchasing history (and potentially any ticket purchasing with a bank card linked to you I suspect) - so they might have come up with 16 rail tickets from that research, not just trainline. The ticket purchasing has no link to the specific Railcard records for your railcard as I understand it - so the fact they can not find the railcard record would have no bearing on that.

I suspect that what you would need to do is to ask them if they would give you a breakdown of the journeys that they think you have taken with the Railcard discount - this being so you can subject them to some sort of reality check as to whether they sound like journeys you might well have made over the years concerned since your Railcard expired in 2019 - unless you have a diary record that you could consult which would be fairly unlikely given you are talking about a few years back. Such a breakdown would give you an idea of if the sum they are asking for is proportionate to the fares not correctly paid.

The problem is that if thy have grounds to prosecute you in court you would have to persuade the magistrates that the card expiry was unknown to you and that you could reasonably be expected to assume that it was just valid until you were 25 years old. And I suspect that this would be a difficult thing to persuade the Magistrates of.
 

Snow1964

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The expiry date conundrum might be the old magnetic strip where the data is just few bits of binary. From memory it is 10 bit (2 to power 10) = 1024, so expiry date repeats every 1024 days (about every 3 years).

My guess is Op got it near 18th birthday (there is a 16-17 railcard that gives bigger discounts, so presumably would have got that if younger). If then expired nearer 19th birthday, add 1024 days and get to 22 years old which sounds consistent with what has been said.
 

AlterEgo

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The expiry date conundrum might be the old magnetic strip where the data is just few bits of binary. From memory it is 10 bit (2 to power 10) = 1024, so expiry date repeats every 1024 days (about every 3 years).

My guess is Op got it near 18th birthday (there is a 16-17 railcard that gives bigger discounts, so presumably would have got that if younger). If then expired nearer 19th birthday, add 1024 days and get to 22 years old which sounds consistent with what has been said.
The 16-17 Saver likely didn’t exist when the 22-year-old OP was 17; it launched in August 2019
 

js123

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Thank you for the help, at the moment all I am doing is just disbuting the compensation costs as I've looked through all my statements and i think they have included 3 train tickets which aren't within the specified dates but have been included as I got them days after I was interviewed but didn't use a railcard. Two of these were refunded due to rail strikes and cancelled trains, even if I include these trains the total sum is still short of the sum being asked after admin fees so I will email to request the transcript of the interview and hopefully the statments of when I paid for train tickets as I have all my statements. Hopefully there is no issue with that and can simply cover the 1/3 price reduction I didn't pay
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you for the help, at the moment all I am doing is just disbuting the compensation costs as I've looked through all my statements and i think they have included 3 train tickets which aren't within the specified dates but have been included as I got them days after I was interviewed but didn't use a railcard. Two of these were refunded due to rail strikes and cancelled trains, even if I include these trains the total sum is still short of the sum being asked after admin fees so I will email to request the transcript of the interview and hopefully the statments of when I paid for train tickets as I have all my statements. Hopefully there is no issue with that and can simply cover the 1/3 price reduction I didn't pay
It may take a dose of luck for them to allow you to pay the shortfall of 1/3rd you didn't pay. It seems to usually be the case that the railways consider a ticket bought with a non valid Railcard to have no validity at all and charge for a complete new ticket, sometimes at the most expensive 'Anytime' rate - so you will have to be prepared for that eventuality.

Good luck with getting this resolved without too much financial pain.
 

furlong

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b. I bought it when I was 16 or 17, most likely 17 so I would assume expired in 2019, but on the system when he took me to the ticket office to pull the data from the card it said it was valid from October 2023. This was one big confusion for me and both staff members.

These railcards aren't meant to last for such a long time. It's very possible for the printing to disappear after this length of time, particularly if it was faint in the first place, and if the date was actually October 2019 then the system would have displayed it as October 2023 - that's just how the system works and should have been no mystery to anyone. (The scan would have shown other useful information too.)

Fundamentally though, whatever the reason, the railway will still feel entitled to the difference in fares.
 

SussexMan

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We all have to take some personal responsibility for things and I put to you (js123) that you knew all along that there should have been an expiry date on the card and that an error had occurred but you chose to ignore it hoping that you could claim that you assumed the card was valid until your 26th birthday. If someone purchased the card on their 16th birthday, did you really believe that it was valid for 10 years and for £3 a year you could get a third off train fares? Did you believe that when you ticked the application form for the railcard that by selecting the "One Year £30" tick box and not the "Three Year £70" box that this was not relevant to the validity period of the railcard?

I suggest that you knew all along there was an issue, chose to ignore it and now it has come back to be a problem for you. At anytime, from the date of purchase onwards, you could have asked a member of train staff whether there was an issue.

The ticket office that issued it clearly should have checked and an error or mistake occurred but that doesn't remove all responsibility from you.
 

Deafdoggie

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We all have to take some personal responsibility for things and I put to you (js123) that you knew all along that there should have been an expiry date on the card and that an error had occurred but you chose to ignore it hoping that you could claim that you assumed the card was valid until your 26th birthday. If someone purchased the card on their 16th birthday, did you really believe that it was valid for 10 years and for £3 a year you could get a third off train fares? Did you believe that when you ticked the application form for the railcard that by selecting the "One Year £30" tick box and not the "Three Year £70" box that this was not relevant to the validity period of the railcard?

I suggest that you knew all along there was an issue, chose to ignore it and now it has come back to be a problem for you. At anytime, from the date of purchase onwards, you could have asked a member of train staff whether there was an issue.

The ticket office that issued it clearly should have checked and an error or mistake occurred but that doesn't remove all responsibility from you.
Let's assume this ends up in court, and let's just ignore strict liability for now.

The court would take a view of what a reasonable person would think. I can't believe a reasonable person would expect a £30 railcard to last 5 years. If you'd been stopped a week after expiry, then maybe, just maybe, you could argue a case. But 5 years? I can't see any magistrate buying that.
 

AlterEgo

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Let's assume this ends up in court, and let's just ignore strict liability for now.

The court would take a view of what a reasonable person would think. I can't believe a reasonable person would expect a £30 railcard to last 5 years. If you'd been stopped a week after expiry, then maybe, just maybe, you could argue a case. But 5 years? I can't see any magistrate buying that.
Well quite. And a completely blank railcard is so completely and obviously incorrect it is not reasonable for the OP to claim ignorance in this regard.
 

Titfield

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Let's assume this ends up in court, and let's just ignore strict liability for now.

The court would take a view of what a reasonable person would think. I can't believe a reasonable person would expect a £30 railcard to last 5 years. If you'd been stopped a week after expiry, then maybe, just maybe, you could argue a case. But 5 years? I can't see any magistrate buying that.
Magistrates are not usually lawyers but members of the public from a broad range of backgrounds and have a wide range of experience of "life".

They are given training and there are a great deal of guidelines they work to.

IMHO it is highly unlikely that a magistrate would accept the notion that you genuinely believed that a railcard would last for such an extended period of time.

Likewise it is a reasonable expectation that if something is not right , for example a blank railcard, that you would make suitable enquiries at the time to get the matter resolved.

Claiming not to be aware of this will simply do you no favours and again imho the magistrates will not find this at all credible.
 

AlterEgo

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and if the date was actually October 2019 then the system would have displayed it as October 2023 - that's just how the system works and should have been no mystery to anyone. (The scan would have shown other useful information too.)
There's a much simpler reason to explain why a completely blank railcard would show it was from a batch in 2023 - with no "history in the system" while being paired with a photocard from 2019.
 

kristiang85

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Let's assume this ends up in court, and let's just ignore strict liability for now.

The court would take a view of what a reasonable person would think. I can't believe a reasonable person would expect a £30 railcard to last 5 years. If you'd been stopped a week after expiry, then maybe, just maybe, you could argue a case. But 5 years? I can't see any magistrate buying that.
Didn't student bank accounts used to offer "free" rail cards for the duration of a degree? I'm not saying it's the case here, but I'm sure there used to be some generous offers that might make people think such a low amount was reasonable.

And many younger people might not realise the value of things, eg railway tickets/railcards, due to generous discounts when under 18, or simply because they didn't pay for them and family did instead. Certainly I remember being shocked the first time I got a train on my own at 18 at how much it cost! (And this was in 2003!)

If the original story is true in that no expiry date was printed, surely there must be some benefit of doubt given here. After all, it would be a mistake on the railway's part if so - a small one indeed, but when small mistakes are made by passengers they are heavily sanctioned. So it should be the other way round too.
 

js123

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I've been given a settlement offer which is due on the 17/03/2024 and recieved the email on the 26/02/2024 and I have sent an email with evidence on the 27/02/2024 with an automated responce saying they'll respond within 15 to 20 working days. This would mean they respond way past the date the offer will last to, does this mean they'll delay it as the response time is so long or I lose that offer. I have sent in evidence just questioning the data they have as my transation statments don't show I've paid for the number of trains they've said I have and submitted evidence and requested the data/info they have to show how they came to that sum.
 

WesternLancer

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I've been given a settlement offer which is due on the 17/03/2024 and recieved the email on the 26/02/2024 and I have sent an email with evidence on the 27/02/2024 with an automated responce saying they'll respond within 15 to 20 working days. This would mean they respond way past the date the offer will last to, does this mean they'll delay it as the response time is so long or I lose that offer. I have sent in evidence just questioning the data they have as my transation statments don't show I've paid for the number of trains they've said I have and submitted evidence and requested the data/info they have to show how they came to that sum.
So it may be worth waiting until say 10/3/24 to see if you get a reply to your query about the breakdown of the sum before taking further action. Do you have a phone number on any of the material they have sent to you that you could use if it gets to that date and you have not heard back?
 

js123

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So this is the only number provided but says they won't be able to talk about my case so I will try them but it seems to only be for payment.
1709116004334.png
 

WesternLancer

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RPI

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I've been given a settlement offer which is due on the 17/03/2024 and recieved the email on the 26/02/2024 and I have sent an email with evidence on the 27/02/2024 with an automated responce saying they'll respond within 15 to 20 working days. This would mean they respond way past the date the offer will last to, does this mean they'll delay it as the response time is so long or I lose that offer. I have sent in evidence just questioning the data they have as my transation statments don't show I've paid for the number of trains they've said I have and submitted evidence and requested the data/info they have to show how they came to that sum.
Usually when you get the "received your email" email, it's says something along the lines of that the clock stops until they reply?
 

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