Prosecution from Arriva Trains Wales

[SussexMan]

In my experience, if a traveller arriving late goes straight to that guard and says 'Sorry, but my bus was late and need to get this train to get to work on time, can I get a ticket from you please?' the answer will rarely be anything other than 'Yes'.

Didn't we have a thread a little while ago in which many people suggested that the above question was fine but that if the guard then refused to sell anything other than a full price single/return then the passenger could have no comeback because they hadn't been sufficiently detailed in their questioning? i.e. if you have a railcard then you need to clearly say so, etc.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Didn't we have a thread a little while ago in which many people suggested that the above question was fine but that if the guard then refused to sell anything other than a full price single/return then the passenger could have no comeback because they hadn't been sufficiently detailed in their questioning? i.e. if you have a railcard then you need to clearly say so, etc.

Yes, the guard should say 'If I say yes it's OK, you know that I can only issue a full price ticket don't you.'

If the traveller accepts this, then again, from my experience, the guard is actually likely to allow the full range of tickets, but is not obliged to do so.

This is all about how people go about the problem, the traveller who gets belligerent and says 'Look, I'm not paying that' (or uses worse language to the same effect) can expect to be asked to go and get a ticket and will likely miss the train.

The traveller who boards without ticket & without having been given authority and who reacts with belligerence and refusal to pay when told s/he should have got a ticket before boarding and cannot have a discount, can ultimately expect to be reported.

 

[Rhydgaled]

A bus service is only a 'connecting' service if it is shown as such on a railway timetable.

So being shown as such on the bus timetable but not the railway timetable doesn't count?

'Opportunity to do something 'and 'time to do something' are not the same thing at all.

Oh. That sounds a bit odd to me, but sadly you are probably correct in the eyes of the law.

As a matter of interest, where is it that the service you suggest is so infrequent as to be more than two-hourly on a line where it might be used by someone going to work?

I did say: "appointment/work". The service I had in mind is the Fishguard line, where I imagine the first two morning trains are timed to try and facilitate commuting. Ok, the gap from the 08:04 to the 09:56 is only arround 2 hours, but if you were using the 09:56 to get to an appointment and missed it you have around three and a half hours to wait for the next train, the 13:30. Granted this is irrelevant at present as neither Fishguard station current has rail ticketing facilities as far as I know, but there have been calls for a ticket machine from the local transport fourm.

Following this discussion, I now feel that introducing a ticket machine at Fishguard would actually be a double-edged sword.

A bus service in the general sense is not regarded as part of your railway journey unfortunately. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking being delayed on a bus is of no concern to the railways. (Of course I believe that it should be, for the sake of integrated transport, amongst other reasons, but there is no point in me telling you what I think should happen here. That is for another time.)

Thanks for your post, and for agreeing that this suituation is not ideal for integrated public transport.

 

[Fare-Cop]

So being shown as such on the bus timetable but not the railway timetable doesn't count?

.

Yes, I think that many Bus companies are quite good at giving additional 'local information' that might help users know what's available in the area, whereas that is rarely a feature of railway timetables.

Oh. That sounds a bit odd to me, but sadly you are probably correct in the eyes of the law.

Well at risk of being considered rude and I am sorry if anyone is offended by this, but it is probably better explained by me saying; I might have the 'opportunity' to use a free ticket to see a live show, but I may well not have the 'time' to do so. The responsibility for making time available is mine, giving the opportunity is the responsibility of the provider.

I did say: "appointment/work". The service I had in mind is the Fishguard line, where I imagine the first two morning trains are timed to try and facilitate commuting. Ok, the gap from the 08:04 to the 09:56 is only arround 2 hours, but if you were using the 09:56 to get to an appointment and missed it you have around three and a half hours to wait for the next train, the 13:30. Granted this is irrelevant at present as neither Fishguard station current has rail ticketing facilities as far as I know, but there have been calls for a ticket machine from the local transport fourm.

Following this discussion, I now feel that introducing a ticket machine at Fishguard would actually be a double-edged sword.

You're probably right as this would more than likely see the byelaw being enforced given the apparent current policy, but it would be far better, although perhaps un-affordable, if the TOCs provided full ticketing facilities at all stations.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not aware of any local campaign to install a TVM at gowerton, but the station now ha sone following the redouibling improvements. However, people are still being sold tickets such as off peak day returns to Cardiff on board.

I don't know if, or when, this policy will change. But it will come as a bit of a shock to Gowerton users who, having had not ticket purchasing facilities for almost fifty years, still walk past the TVM as if it doesn't exist!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not aware of any local campaign to install a TVM at gowerton, but the station now ha sone following the redouibling improvements. However, people are still being sold tickets such as off peak day returns to Cardiff on board.

I don't know if, or when, this policy will change. But it will come as a bit of a shock to Gowerton users who, having had not ticket purchasing facilities for almost fifty years, still walk past the TVM as if it doesn't exist!

I think ATW will have the exact same problem in many other stations that they introduce TVM's to.

People are so used to not having facilities to buy tickets at the station, it will take a long time for the habit of buying beforehand to develop.

I just hope ATW are lenient and understanding as this happens, otherwise there are going to be many many people, who have no intention to break the law or evade the fare, getting fined (whatever the law says, I and most other people think penalty fares as a fine) or even prosecuted.

As an aside, I do feel sorry for people whose local station only has a TVM. My parents are going to have to use one next week to pick up tickets, and they will struggle (despite me telling them exactly what they will have to do). The reality is many people, generally of the older demographic, struggle to use technology that they are not used to.

 

[Flamingo]

The problem I find in Wales is not the people who walk past the TVM, but the people who ask for a ticket from the (barriered) station the train has just left, not the (unbarriered) station they joined at.

Their stock reply is "Well, you've gotta try , Bud", and a major snit when informed they have just committed an offence.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I just hope ATW are lenient and understanding as this happens, otherwise there are going to be many many people, who have no intention to break the law or evade the fare, getting fined (whatever the law says, I and most other people think penalty fares as a fine) or even prosecuted.

They wouldn't get a penalty fare as they don't apply on ATW

 

[34D]

(Are there DOO services where trains are less frequent than hourly?)

Created a thread for this interesting question

 

[Greenback]

I think ATW will have the exact same problem in many other stations that they introduce TVM's to.

People are so used to not having facilities to buy tickets at the station, it will take a long time for the habit of buying beforehand to develop.

I just hope ATW are lenient and understanding as this happens, otherwise there are going to be many many people, who have no intention to break the law or evade the fare, getting fined (whatever the law says, I and most other people think penalty fares as a fine) or even prosecuted.

As an aside, I do feel sorry for people whose local station only has a TVM. My parents are going to have to use one next week to pick up tickets, and they will struggle (despite me telling them exactly what they will have to do). The reality is many people, generally of the older demographic, struggle to use technology that they are not used to.

I agree. Of course, the people who board at Gowerton are not trying to evade their fare. Most of them even have their money in hand when they get on!

As Northern are finding, it is very hard to break the habits that have been formed over several generations - nobody under 55 is likely to have any memory of buying a ticket at Gowerton station, and even they will have spent so long buying on the train that they will just continue to do so!

I hope that ATW do not go down the Northern route of enforcement by using fixed penalty 'tickets'.

 

[talltim]

My first opportunity to buy a ticket is at home on the internet

 

[rdwarr]

My first opportunity to buy a ticket is at home on the internet

Good luck collecting it from an unmanned station with no TVM.

 

[Fare-Cop]

My first opportunity to buy a ticket is at home on the internet

This is not true for everyone.

So far as Railway Byelaws are concerned, the first opportunity is at the station on arrival if there is a ticket office or a self-service ticket machine.

Only if the station has no working ticket issuing facilities, or if the traveller has been given express permission to pay on board by staff at the joining station does the first opportunity become the on-train staff.

 

[lifebook02]

What if the train conductor holes himself up in his little cabin at the end of the train? On Arriva Trains Wales, 95% of them do that. Am I supposed to knock and ask for a ticket? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

 

[sheff1]

I agree. Of course, the people who board at Gowerton are not trying to evade their fare. Most of them even have their money in hand when they get on!

As Northern are finding, it is very hard to break the habits that have been formed over several generations -

Quite. Yesterday on the Hope Valley stopper the guard, rather than checking tickets leaving Shefield, came through saying "Anyone need a ticket ?". Three people (travelling independently) asked him for a single to Dore (the first stop). One of them, having failed to attract his attention on the first pass, moved over to the aisle seat so that they could stop him on his return.

All these people clearly wanted and expected to pay - if they had wanted to dodge the fare they could have just sat tight and then alighted unhindered.

 

[bb21]

What if the train conductor holes himself up in his little cabin at the end of the train? On Arriva Trains Wales, 95% of them do that. Am I supposed to knock and ask for a ticket? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Yes, I suppose you could, and if he said "no" for whatever reason, you can use that to back up your case later on if needed.

There is no need to go looking for the guard however, if you legitimately did not have a ticket.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Quite. Yesterday on the Hope Valley stopper the guard, rather than checking tickets leaving Shefield, came through saying "Anyone need a ticket ?". Three people (travelling independently) asked him for a single to Dore (the first stop). One of them, having failed to attract his attention on the first pass, moved over to the aisle seat so that they could stop him on his return.

All these people clearly wanted and expected to pay - if they had wanted to dodge the fare they could have just sat tight and then alighted unhindered.

I've noticed similar on ATW services. The guard normally just seems to ask for 'passengers from ' previous station(s) since guard last past through this coach 'please' and walks right past anyone who doesn't offer themselves up as having just boarded.

 

[jb]

There is no need to go looking for the guard however, if you legitimately did not have a ticket.

The fourth word should probably read "obligation" and the distinction is important. I would argue there quite possibly is a need, as many cases we see on here are compounded by innocent mistakes later in the journey that may well have been avoided had the guard been sought.

I don't know if I would argue on balance there is a need, but it's close.

 

[Flamingo]

My approach when dealing with passengers travelling from stations with ticket facilities is if the passenger approaches me, they are probably genuine. If I find them, they are probably not. There are exceptions, obviously, but as a general rule it works.

 

[Fare-Cop]

My approach when dealing with passengers travelling from stations with ticket facilities is if the passenger approaches me, they are probably genuine. If I find them, they are probably not. There are exceptions, obviously, but as a general rule it works.

It is on this basis that the Corbyn (1978) ruling is so often applied when TOCs decide whether or not to proceed and yes, of course there are exceptions

Whilst there were many more important details that were considered at appeal by the learned Judges in that case, the majority of Magistrates seem to be convinced by the argument that, if not asked, by their action in not having paid and not having declared the journey before detected, the traveller would likely not have paid.

I know that many users will take issue with my comments, but should any case proceed it isn't our opinion on an internet forum that will decide, it's what happens in Court and the opinion of Magistrates that will be important.

 

[Flamingo]

It is on this basis that the Corbyn (1978) ruling is so often applied when TOCs decide whether or not to proceed and yes, of course there are exceptions

Whilst there were many more important details that were considered at appeal by the learned Judges in that case, the majority of Magistrates seem to be convinced by the argument that, if not asked, by their action in not having paid and not having declared the journey before detected, the traveller would likely not have paid.

I know that many users will take issue with my comments, but should any case proceed it isn't our opinion on an internet forum that will decide, it's what happens in Court and the opinion of Magistrates that will be important.

Thanks for that. I was never aware my approach had any "official" backing, it just seemed a common-sense approach.

 

[Starmill]

The whole 'search for the guard' thing has bugged me pretty much since I've been getting trains on my own. After some very encouraging messages on here from guards, I have tried, with mixed results, but more often good than bad, to ask guards about ticketing queries (or, in some cases, panics) which might have left me in trouble later otherwise. In the words of an ATW guard "The most important thing to me is that you know where you are going and how to get there, not what ticket you've got."

Most do seem happy enough to help if you ask beforehand, but that doesn't stop some misunderstanding or brushing you off too quickly I'm afraid.


If its a simple case of 'I don't have a ticket but need to buy one.' I will seek the guard in the saloon or on the platform, but not in the cab. I figure if they've left their avantix there, its because its not working (I have no idea if that's accurate, but would sooner not know, I think).

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I have just see a joint ATW/Northern revenue protection operation at Earlestown for the very first time. They looked to have caught one dodger. Great to see to see this and hopefully it wikl become more frequent.