Prosecution letter from Southern Rail - 7 days to reply

[ably]

Hey everyone,

It would be really amazing to get help as I've received the below letter from Southern rail and have 7 days to reply.

On 28th Sept, I started my journey in Twickenham and finished it in Gatwick. Changing trains in clapham.
At the barriers of Gatwick, I was stopped by an officer. I presented them with a ticket which was from Three Bridges to Gatwick.
I was interviewed by rail staff - and gave them the above info.
He gave me a notice advising that Southern would be in touch with me regarding prosecution.

I have since received the note - where Southern rail have advised that I avoided a significant sum of rail fares and they want to discuss the matter with me.
I have 7 days to reply.

Would be really amazing to get your help please - as I am very anxious to avoid a criminal record and settle this outside of court

 

[John R]

Welcome to the forum!

Do I assume from the letter that the investigators have checked your online account and found a lot of tickets from Three Bridges to Gatwick, and have thus concluded that you have been short faring for a considerable period?

 

[ably]

Thanks for the quick reply - can you advise how I can answer that question without incriminating myself?

Having read previous posts, I have drafted the attached letter.

I would love advice on this matter as I am super keen to avoid prosecution or any criminal record.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks for the quick reply - can you advise how I can answer that question without incriminating myself?

On here or in the reply you'll be making to Southern?

Presume from what you hint at, that there have been multiple other instances of short-faring?

 

[John R]

I haven’t asked you whether they would be right in that conclusion, just if you believe that’s the conclusion they have drawn.

In terms of helping you, if you tell us that they would be wrong to draw that conclusion then it will help us steer our advice accordingly. But if you don’t then we will probably couch our advice assuming they are.

In the latter case, this is likely to be expensive, as the best outcome is to fess up, (they seem to have all the data to hand), be contrite, cooperative, and hope for an out of court settlement. Which as I said will be expensive as they will expect you to cover the cost if all the fares avoided, often but not always using single anytime fares, and pay up within 14 days to avoid court.

 

[spag23]

The advice on this forum depends on whether you are actually innocent of any previous ticket evasions. So you need to at least give us a clue. But maybe Post #3 does that already.

 

[ably]

Thanks. Yes, I believe they will have drawn the below conclusion

Welcome to the forum!

Do I assume from the letter that the investigators have checked your online account and found a lot of tickets from Three Bridges to Gatwick, and have thus concluded that you have been short faring for a considerable period?

 

[John R]

This could go two ways: 1) you'll be prosecuted for fraud (which is the most serious) or 2), you'll be offered an out of court settlement

Either way, you'll need to wait for a written letter to arrive. You may also want to start saving as an out of court settlement is likely to be at least 3 figures....

Thanks for the quick reply - can you advise how I can answer that question without incriminating myself?

Having read previous posts, I have drafted the attached letter.

I would love advice on this matter as I am super keen to avoid prosecution or any criminal record.

There’s a balance to be found between too long and flowery (often AI generated) and too short, and I think this is a little too short to make the investigators think that you have put the appropriate amount of time and consideration into it.

We sometimes have a debate as to whether it is best to set out your estimate of the number of times you have evaded the correct fare. IMO, I think it would be better to do so here, listing dates or at least the number of occasions. But wait a while for others to comment too.

If avoiding prosecution is really important to your employment, even prosecution for one instance (which bluntly they have you for) needs to be avoided, hence why it might be beneficial to be overly cooperative from the outset.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There’s a balance to be found between too long and flowery (often AI generated) and too short, and I think this is a little too short to make the investigators think that you have put the appropriate amount of time and consideration into it.

We sometimes have a debate as to whether it is best to set out your estimate of the number of times you have evaded the correct fare. IMO, I think it would be better to do so here, listing dates or at least the number of occasions. But wait a while for others to comment too.

If avoiding prosecution is really important to your employment, even prosecution for one instance (which bluntly they have you for) needs to be avoided, hence why it might be beneficial to be overly cooperative from the outset.

I'd add to the above that your letter probably also needs to ask the railway to tell you how much they consider would be an appropriate settlement. That's both so that you know what you will have to pay them - and because it suggests that you have thought things through and are serious about trying to settle things, rather than (as @Brissle Girl suggests) you've just dashed off a quick note in the hope that the problem will go away.

 

[Titfield]

I am sorry but your letter does not read well and, presumably inadvertently, gives the wrong impression. You state .... strongly regret I have thoroughly learnt that doing such things is very wrong.

(1) It almost appears if you regret being caught
(2) You should not be learning that doing such things is wrong but knew this already.
(3) You should sound sincere in your apologies and show genuine contrition.

As @Brissle Girl states your letter needs to indicate that you have reflected on the actions you took and have put an appropriate amount of time considering it.

There are some good examples of suitable letters in this sub forum which you can find either by using the search facility pr looking at some post threads.

This letter is probably your one opportunity to convince the Train Operating Company that (a) you are sorry (b) you have learned your lesson* (c) you wont do it again (d) you understand and accept the gravity of your situation.

*my view is that the lesson is not learned until the matter has been concluded and you have paid any outstanding fares plus an administration fee.

 

[30907]

One specific point for your rewrite: "I would be pleased..." is an offer, but you are in no position to make an offer! "I would be extremely grateful if you would consider offering an out of court settlement to cover the cost of my travel and your administrative costs" would be more appropriate to your situation (it covers Fawkes Cat's point, I think).
It also leaves the number of offences unspecified without pretending there is only one - for your own benefit you should make a rough estimate of the number of full fares you have evaded to compare with the TOC's

 

[AlterEgo]

Saying you are "sorry for any fare avoidance" is very glib. You should reword this to take accountability.

 

[ably]

Thanks all - really apprecaite your replies. I've re-drafted the letter.

So I'm clear - is the suggestion that I should outline the estimate for number of times I may have not had a ticket for full journey on here? Or on the letter?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So I'm clear - is the suggestion that I should outline the estimate for number of times I may have not had a ticket for full journey on here? Or on the letter?

Please don't tell us here: you probably don't want everyone who looks at the internet knowing about it!

But you do need to think about how often you have done it. Whether the railway take a moral view of fare dodging or they're just interested in getting their money back, it's fairly obvious that the more often you have done this, the more severe a punishment they will want you to have, so that you will decide that fare dodging isn't worth it, and won't do it again.

So at the very least, you need to be prepared to pay the full fare for all the journeys you made plus the cost of the investigation. And 'full fare' is normally taken to mean the Anytime single fare, with no reduction for return tickets, Railcards and so on.

 

[John R]

I would say “ outstanding fares that you deem appropriate”, and a minor picky point, endeavour has a u in it this side of the pond.

 

[skyhigh]

Please don't tell us here: you probably don't want everyone who looks at the internet knowing about it!

I don't think it particularly matters to be honest - plenty of people estimate on here how many times they've evaded fares so that we can give proper advice, and it's not as if the OP is posting under their full name. GTR also seem to think they know the extent too.

 

[TheJester]

An anytime day single from Twickenham to Gatwick is £16.20 Which you need to factor into your calculations.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Please don't tell us here: you probably don't want everyone who looks at the internet knowing about it!

But you do need to think about how often you have done it. Whether the railway take a moral view of fare dodging or they're just interested in getting their money back, it's fairly obvious that the more often you have done this, the more severe a punishment they will want you to have, so that you will decide that fare dodging isn't worth it, and won't do it again.

So at the very least, you need to be prepared to pay the full fare for all the journeys you made plus the cost of the investigation. And 'full fare' is normally taken to mean the Anytime single fare, with no reduction for return tickets, Railcards and so on.

No thinking should be required.
If GTR can look at purchase history, so can the OP, surely?
It should be searchable in their own online account, and relatively easy to see how many times the correct fare was not paid.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It appears that GTR have evidence that you have short fared a significant number of times. They have asked you to reply and want to speak to them about the matter. You say you want to keep this out of court.

The best way of doing this will be to co-operate with GTR. Research your online ticketing account and identify the number of times you have done this and tell this to GTR. This could be seen as incriminating yourself but you're not telling GTR anything they aren't already aware of. Also, if you are unco-operative then they could simply prosecute you for the single occasion where you were caught - and that isn't what you want.

I don't think your proposed reply is suitable is sincere enough, I suggest including the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are one of the more reasonable train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing, but there is no requirement for them to offer you a settlement - they can prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they decide to do so. Expect to have to pay the outstanding fares plus an admin fee of around £150 with ni credit given for the value of fares purchased. You'll also need to be in a position to pay this in full within a few days of it being offered.

Here's a link to another recent case involving GTR where the OP was caught in similar circumstances. The person managed to arrange a satisfactory outcome by following the advice given.

Caught Fare Dodging on 8/12/2023

Hi Everyone, I have been reading intently plenty of similar stories on this thread and want to share my experience to-date. Firstly, some background. I travel from Hitchin to Farringdon twice a week for work. I have a Network Railcard but do not, unfortunately, quality for a young-persons or...

www.railforums.co.uk

Feel free to post a copy of your updated reply in this thread and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[John R]

I thought the second draft covered most of those points reasonably well and concisely, (although suggested a couple of minor tweaks).

 

[ably]

Thanks so much for your help everyone, really appreciate your kindness and understanding here. I've included the latest draft of my letter below. Please let me know if any more feedback!


Dear Govia Thameslink Ltd,

Thank you for your letter dated 31st Jan 2024. Please consider this letter to be my ‘Response from the Passenger’ note.

It is true that I travelled with an invalid ticket on 28th September when I was interviewed by your revenue protections officer. Further, I admit, that was not the first time I did so.

I am extremely sorry for this and for intentionally avoiding paying full fares on your trains. I really regret my actions and now understand that this behaviour is completely unacceptable.

I have learnt a lot from this. Namely, I am now clear that fare avoidance causes a great deal of trouble for railway companies, who work hard to provide a good service. I really regret that I’ve contributed to a problem which I now understand costs Govia significant time, money and resources. Particularly, as this drain on rail companies ultimately makes things worse for both full-paying rail users and train staff.

Going forwards, I will ensure that this never happens again. I will make sure that I have valid tickets for my entire railway journey - and will endeavour to be a model railway user.

To help assist, I have looked at my previous purchases. I have attempted to estimate the number of times I have committed this offence - which is approximately 53 times. I have included the dates where this has occurred at the bottom of the letter. I am sure you have done your own investigation and I welcome the outcome of this also.

Overall, I would be extremely grateful if you would consider offering an out of court settlement to cover any outstanding fares and your administrative costs.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours Sincerely,
xx

Welcome to the forum!

It appears that GTR have evidence that you have short fared a significant number of times. They have asked you to reply and want to speak to them about the matter. You say you want to keep this out of court.

The best way of doing this will be to co-operate with GTR. Research your online ticketing account and identify the number of times you have done this and tell this to GTR. This could be seen as incriminating yourself but you're not telling GTR anything they aren't already aware of. Also, if you are unco-operative then they could simply prosecute you for the single occasion where you were caught - and that isn't what you want.

I don't think your proposed reply is suitable is sincere enough, I suggest including the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are one of the more reasonable train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing, but there is no requirement for them to offer you a settlement - they can prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they decide to do so. Expect to have to pay the outstanding fares plus an admin fee of around £150 with ni credit given for the value of fares purchased. You'll also need to be in a position to pay this in full within a few days of it being offered.

Here's a link to another recent case involving GTR where the OP was caught in similar circumstances. The person managed to arrange a satisfactory outcome by following the advice given.

Caught Fare Dodging on 8/12/2023

Hi Everyone, I have been reading intently plenty of similar stories on this thread and want to share my experience to-date. Firstly, some background. I travel from Hitchin to Farringdon twice a week for work. I have a Network Railcard but do not, unfortunately, quality for a young-persons or...

www.railforums.co.uk

Feel free to post a copy of your updated reply in this thread and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[John R]

Other than the minor point of addressing it to the person who signed the original letter, I think that’s a good letter that now stands a very good chance of getting a settlement offer.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Please let me know if any more feedback!

Dear Govia Thameslink Ltd,

Thank you for your letter dated 31st Jan 2024.

What date is/was the letter that was received?

Today?

Presume from what you hint at, that there have been multiple other instances of short-faring?

I have attempted to estimate the number of times I have committed this offence - which is approximately 53 times.

An anytime day single from Twickenham to Gatwick is £16.20 Which you need to factor into your calculations.

@ably. Presume that you have the means to stump up, in one go, 53 x £16.20 plus maybe £150 admin costs on top. That's likely to total just over a grand if that's how the amount to settle out of court is actually calculated.

 

[Hadders]

I think this is a much better letter to send. Hopefully GTR will offer a settlement which, although not cheap, will keep the matter out of court.

For comparison purposes if you were prosecuted in court for the single incident where you were caught then you would have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (usually discounted by a third for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards GTR's costs (probably around £150)
- Compensation for the fare avoided

The total of what you'd have to pay probably wouldn't be significantly different to the out of court settlement cost.

Please do let us know how you get on.

 

[ably]

Thanks very much all - for your help. FYI, I received the below response for GTR and have included my reply as well. Please let me know if you have any further advice


GTR
Thank you for your response.

Since you were spoken to by a GTR Revenue Protection Inspector on the 28th September, Govia Thameslink Railway opened an investigation into your ticket purchase history via Trainline which has identified numerous short ticket transactions, for journeys between Twickenham, Gatwick Airport and London stations.

My role within GTR's Fraud Department is to decide what course of action is most appropriate in a fraud investigation such as this. I have the option of referring your case to our Prosecutions Department, or alternatively, we can attempt to resolve the matter via the payment of a financial settlement, consisting of any rail fares that have been avoided plus GTR's costs.

I am prepared on this occasion to offer you an opportunity to try and reach a settlement agreement with GTR, however for this to happen your full cooperation and honesty are required. Please note, if we are unable to agree on a satisfactory outcome regarding this matter, your case will be referred to GTR's Prosecutions Department, which will result in a court summons being issued or your case being passed over to the British Transport Police for review.

Although you are under no obligation to enter into a settlement with Govia Thameslink Railway, providing the above points are met I would consider providing a settlement proposal based on any rail fares which were avoided, along with GTR’s costs to investigate this case.

Please let me know your thoughts on the above, If I don't hear back from you, it will be assumed you do not wish to proceed with a settlement.

Should you wish to discuss matters in detail I would be happy to schedule a call.

My Reply

Thank you very much for your email. As you say below, I did purchase short tickets on numerous occasions - for this I am very sorry and now understand better the extent to which it harms rail companies and full-paying rail users.

I really appreciate the opportunity to reach a settlement agreement with GTR. I am willing to pay a financial settlement consisting of avoided rail fares and GTR's costs. I would be pleased to cooperate and answer any queries you have with full honesty. Please let me know if there is anything you require from me to assist you in your investigation.

I hope you can take my, previously sent, estimated dates/list of offences as a sign of my willingness for continued cooperation.

Please can you let me know the next steps. If you wish to arrange a call, I am available for this next week.