Prosecution letter on the way - please help!!

[wenyclang]

On Friday I wanted to travel from Cambridge to London - I was in such a rush and I purchased a day return as opposed to an open return by accident on the ticket machine. This was only apparent when I arrived back in Cambridge, and it failed to work in the machine - I immediately went over to the guard to ask for help and he directed me to a lady who first of all issued me with a penalty notice. I was unaware of my bank balance and was unable to pay the fine, and suddenly my right were being read to me and I was under caution. I am so so worried about what it going happen now after an honest mistake. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Everything I said to the ticket officer was true.

 

[crehld]

Hi wenyclang. We're missing a bit of detail, so I wonder if we could have a little more information as this will help us advise you accordingly:

- Can you let us know precisely what ticket you ended up purchasing and travelled with? For example, was it an Anytime Day Return or an Off-peak day return? If you're unsure of the exact type perhaps let us know the price and we should be able to work it out.
- Was it the case that you travelled down to London on one day and returned to Cambridge on another?
- Was the ticket routed "Any Permitted" or "AGA Only"?
- What time train did you take from London and from which station? Was it an Abellio Greater Anglia train or Great Northern train?
- When you say you "immediately went over to the guard to ask for help" was this by the ticket gates at Cambridge?
- When you tried to pay the penalty fare and it turned out you couldn't, what exactly was said to you by the inspector?
- Were you issued any paperwork, and if so what does it say?

It's a bit of a long list, but it will help us find out exactly what sort of a situation you're in

 

[wenyclang]

Thank you so much for your reply!!
so I purchased an off peak day return. it says route: any permitted. I payed £23 pounds for it with a rail card which struck me as the ordinary price. I was meant to purchase an open return but was in such a rush that I pressed the wrong button in error.
Yes, I returned to Cambridge on a different day
Any permitted
Kings Cross was where i travelled from - I think it was a greater northern train
Yes, I put my ticket from London in the machine where it was rejected, and I went straight over to the guys in uniform at the side of the barrier and asked for help
I dont remember my exact wording: I offered to pay the difference then and there - I wasnt sure of my account balance so I said that it was not possible for me to pay the full whack then and there - had I know that this would have caused such a problem - I would have telephoned my bank etc - i cannot go overdrawn which is the issue here.
I was issued with a very tiny slip which just says the ticket number

 

[crehld]

I'm a little confused here. With a railcard, the only off-peak day return routed any permitted I can find is £15.85. If you paid about £23 you would have been issued one of two tickets:

1. an Off-Peak Return, routed "ANY PERMITTED" (£23.30)
2. an Anytime Day Return, routed "AGA ONLY" (£23.75)

Was your ticket any of these two, and if not are you definitely sure you paid about £23 for it? Do you still have your ticket or was it confiscated?

Also is there nothing else on the thin slip of paper other than just the ticket number? Any other text at all?

 

[wenyclang]

youre quite right - 15:85 with the rail card - Any route permitted - that is the ticket I accidentally bought and the lady, after initially talking about a penalty notice, suddenly interviewed me under caution and took away my incorrect 2nd part of the return. The slip literally just says: passenger may travel to X from Y at time specified. Its a tiny slip and has a ticket number on. One of the guards referred to it as "the naughty slip" I have since returned to the station in the hope of a bit more clarification. All the staff were friendly and polite -I dont think they think I was fare dodging at all (which obviously I wasnt) but they dont know what letter I will be receiving

 

[gray1404]

The RPI could have realised it was a genuiene mistake and still issued a PF having taken zero payment. I know they are not required to do this if you cannot pay at least the single fare for the journey in question, but they can if they want to. This would have been a simple resolution to this matter.

What concerns me here now is that it is becoming the norm of TOCs to "report" people and then they know they can send out a request for an administrative settlement (which will cost more then a PF) rather then actually issuing a PF (i.e. looking for any reason not to issue one) or considering the circumstances at the time.

 

[wenyclang]

But why was I then interviewed under caution? And I therefore think I am receiving a prosecution letter

 

[ian959]

If you were offered a Penalty Fare and you could not pay even the cost of the fare not paid (the balance being payable later), then the Penalty Fare was correctly withdrawn (I believe) and the matter was escalated. Given that this would appear to be a genuine error, although the RPI cannot possibly know this as they have heard every story under the sun, it is likely that an out of court settlement should be possible. It will cost more than the Penalty Fare but less than if the matter did proceed to court.

 

[wenyclang]

Im not sure if I was offered the option to just pay the fare, perhaps I was - I actually cannot remember. The problem was it was not made clear to me that that would escalate the situation. I was under the impression that the letter I would receive would give me payment options and the 21 days to appeal. I did not percieve any obligation or necessity to pay then and there either - it had seemed fairly casual up to this point. If I had known that the situation would escalate as a result of not being aware of my finances, I would have asked to be accompanied to an ATM, phoned my bank, or even just tried my debit card - would rather have risked an angry letter from Natwest. I was just told "forget the letter and the 21 days".I have written a letter in anticipation, but a court summoning would be so disruptive to my studies, and realistically a waste of court time. I have since visited the station. They were very helpful and understanding and luckily they too, I believe, know that I made a mistake, which worryingly is quite an easy one to make. Thank you for all replies so far.

 

[crehld]

We still don't quite know the situation you're in, but from what you've described I think one of two situations applies:

1. You were issued a penalty fare. If you couldn't pay it there and then you are usually given the option to pay it within 21 days. You should have received a copy of the penalty fare notice, which will include details of how to pay and a reference number of some sort. This might be the thin strip of paper you're talking about, although in my experience

2. The penalty fare was withdrawn (or perhaps not offered) and Great Northern took your details down to investigate further.

I think the best course of action at this point is to actually find out what situation you're in. So it might be worth contacting Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (details at https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/home.aspx) to see if they've received your details and there is a penalty fare to pay. If not, then it would be worth contacting Great Northern directly, explaining the situation to see if they have your details and if can give you any more information.

 

[Haywain]

I think the best course of action at this point is to actually find out what situation you're in. So it might be worth contacting Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (details at https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/home.aspx) to see if they've received your details and there is a penalty fare to pay. If not, then it would be worth contacting Great Northern directly, explaining the situation to see if they have your details and if can give you any more information.

We can deduce from the statement below that a penalty fare was not issued as the form would not be described in the same way. And in any event, Cambridge station is not operated by Great Northern, so they will probably know nothing of this matter. The operating company is Abellio Greater Anglia. Their penalty fare scheme (https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/GA_Penalty_Fares_Leaflet.pdf) requires at least part payment (of the full single fare) at the time of issue, so no payment equals no penalty fare. If the OP wants to make contact, then this page (https://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/about-us/revenue-protection-prosecutions-policy) might prove useful.

The slip literally just says: passenger may travel to X from Y at time specified. Its a tiny slip and has a ticket number on. One of the guards referred to it as "the naughty slip"

 

[wenyclang]

Again, thank you for all the advice. I am certain a penalty fare was not issued. The lady said "forget the letter about the 21 days." so im sure it was taken to a higher level. The Greater Anglican website seems very reasonable: the only thing I have not been able to do was pay then and there on the spot - partly due to not realising I even had to do so. I gave all correct details, have no previous record with this company, I was polite, willing to cooperate etc. Is there anything else I can clarify for you all? I think we can be sure that the letter I am receiving is NOT a penalty fine, but the next step beyond that I would be so shocked if I received a court summons.

 

[island]

1. You were issued a penalty fare. If you couldn't pay it there and then you are usually given the option to pay it within 21 days. You should have received a copy of the penalty fare notice, which will include details of how to pay and a reference number of some sort. This might be the thin strip of paper you're talking about, although in my experience

When an Authorised Collector proposes to issue a Penalty Fare Notice, the passenger is required, except in special circumstances, to pay at least the single fare for the journey taken there and then. If the passenger is unable or unwilling to do so, it will normally result in the suspicion that the passenger is travelling without having paid his fare and with the intent to avoid payment thereof, which in turn will result in the passenger being reported for consideration of prosecution.

 

[wenyclang]

I think Island is right. I would have paid then and there on principle but: I did not realise it was compulsory and i did not know I had enough in my bank account. What is the usual result of a situation like this?

 

[gray1404]

When an Authorised Collector proposes to issue a Penalty Fare Notice, the passenger is required, except in special circumstances, to pay at least the single fare for the journey taken there and then.

and are the RPIs required to explain this fact to the customer at the time and explain the implications if they can't?

 

[wenyclang]

^ This is something I would be interested in as well. I also did not even understand the implications of being under caution. But i do not feel the RPI could have explained any implications. Why on earth would I choose not to pay then and there If I had known I would be receiving a letter of prosecution as an alternative? I think it pretty much went "forget the letter (of 21 days) I need to now interview you under caution." Do you understand the caution?" (but NOT as in why you are receiving it - literally just, do you understand that this will be used in court) I then said "no, I do not understand its relevance, why this is necessary." so yeh, pretty sure such implications were never made remotely clear.
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what do we reckon is going to happen in this case? Thanks again everyone

 

[222007]

I believe in this situation the best course of action is to wait for a letter from AGA and take things from there. You might be looking at possibly an out of court settlement. My best bit of advice is simply to check your tickets when you purchase them to ensure you have the correct ticket for the journey you intend to make. The caution is simply a process the RPI has gone through having exhausted the penalty fare option. The relevance of the caution is to preserve evidence and gather all the facts of the situation to be able to submit a report to there TOC.

 

[najaB]

and are the RPIs required to explain this fact to the customer at the time and explain the implications if they can't?

From the Penalty Fares Rules:

8.1 If a person is to be charged a penalty fare, the authorised collector must tell them:

• that they are to be charged a penalty fare;
• why they are being charged a penalty fare;
• the amount of the penalty fare; and
• that they have the right to appeal against the penalty fare within 21 days.

 

[Haywain]

However, the challenge is that the RPI should explain why the potential recipient should pay the penalty fare when the opportunity is available. As very many of these cases that we see on this forum involve someone having informed the RPI that they don't have any money to pay the fare, this seems rather pointless. If someone has stated that they don't have the ability to pay at least the single fare, as required, and after being informed that if they fail to pay they could be prosecuted they show they have the means to pay after all, I would suggest that reporting for prosecution is the appropriate course of action anyway, as they are patently trying to evade paying the fare.

 

[bb21]

I think claiming that one is not sure whether he had sufficient funds for the single fare should be sufficient grounds for being reported. If one had no intent to avoid paying the correct fare then one would not be travelling with insufficient money. The key is obviously being informed that one can pay the single fare rather than the full Penalty Fare on the spot, which from stories on the forum is not always explained (but of course we cannot know for sure).

If a person claims to have no money, I see no reason for that option to be offered, since they wouldn't be able to pay it anyway.

 

[wenyclang]

I also thought that later payment was an option. Also, as a student, I really dont have much in my bank account. I had purchased the tickets in advance of me travelling as well. I would understand more if I was travelling on a ticket which I had to have bought on the same day - seems unlikely then if you have no money, but i was never ever expecting to have to fork out 40 pounds (and I had already purchased a ticket - just the wrong one unfortunately), and was under the impression that it wasn't even necessary: I thought I had the option to pay then and get it over with or wait until the letter detailing the stuff about 21 days, and I could pay then as an alternative.

 

[najaB]

I also thought that later payment was an option.

It would be nice if that was the case, but people less honest than yourself would give false details and never be seen again.

 

[gray1404]

From the Penalty Fares Rules:

Would that mean then that the RPI does not need to explain the implications to the passenger if they cannot pay the full single fare there and then.... (i.e. they will be reported and as a PF will no longer be issued).?

 

[sheff1]

I think claiming that one is not sure whether he had sufficient funds for the single fare should be sufficient grounds for being reported. If one had no intent to avoid paying the correct fare then one would not be travelling with insufficient money.

If you believed (albeit wrongly) that you had already paid the correct fare and hence had a valid ticket, it would be quite feasible that you would be travelling with insufficient money to pay for a new ticket as you would not be anticipating having to do so.

 

[najaB]

Would that mean then that the RPI does not need to explain the implications to the passenger if they cannot pay the full single fare there and then.... (i.e. they will be reported and as a PF will no longer be issued).?

That is how I read the rules.

 

[wenyclang]

If you believed (albeit wrongly) that you had already paid the correct fare and hence had a valid ticket, it would be quite feasible that you would be travelling with insufficient money to pay for a new ticket as you would not be anticipating having to do so.

exactly! - youve expressed that much better than I did - especially paying on the spot with no overdraft limit
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So, do we think that the RPI is going to have a strong case? It already seems confused as they have not been able to decide if they think I am fare avoiding or not. I said I was a student (which I am) and so they might be a bit more understanding re finances. I know its the cliche of a student not having much money but it really is true - 40 pounds is a lot. If I said I was a banker or a CEO then possibly having less money is credible.

 

[Llanigraham]

When I used to issue Cautions we were taught that by using the correct words, as laid down, you were explaining exactly what was going to happen; anything you say could be used in Court.

 

[wenyclang]

When I used to issue Cautions we were taught that by using the correct words, as laid down, you were explaining exactly what was going to happen; anything you say could be used in Court.

She explained exactly what was going to happen but not why - I said i have no idea why this caution is relevant to me, and then she simply read it out again. i understood its function, but not why it was necessary in the first place for my situation. I didnt realise that the situation had suddenly escalated when I didnt pay then and there. I think I answered the caution ok - i was so shocked tbh.
She said: was this a valid journey? "I said: "i am guessing not, but until now i thought it was"
Did you intend to avoid paying the fare? No. Which is obvious as I did buy a ticket, the wrong one i accept, owed to human error.

 

[bb21]

If you believed (albeit wrongly) that you had already paid the correct fare and hence had a valid ticket, it would be quite feasible that you would be travelling with insufficient money to pay for a new ticket as you would not be anticipating having to do so.

Of course that brings about all sorts of grey areas and I was only stating the fundamentals. If there were any mitigating factors, then of course the appropriate course of action may change.

Unfortunately the responsibility rests with the passenger to obtain the correct ticket. (I'm not going to go into a discussion as to whether this is morally just, given the manifestation of TVMs and their unfriendly interface, etc, as that can be for another thread.) The problem with claiming that a mistake was made is that it is not up to the passenger to decide whether the story was genuine or whether someone was trying to pull a fast one. Some stories will be easier to believe than others. Different revenue protection staff can also draw different conclusions and exercise differing amount of discretion. Presenting an out-of-date ticket resembles a typical behaviour of a fare dodger who, for all we know, may have simply picked up a discarded ticket from the floor, which actually brings me to a question for the OP:

How did you pay for the tickets? Was it in cash or by card?

It may help if you could present evidence of payment for the ticket which, while it may not prove much by itself, could help build a more favourable picture for yourself.

 

[wenyclang]

Good point - i see from their point of view you could just pick one up and show it and then claim it was an out of date part of a 2part return- Luckily I hung on to the 1st part of the return ticket to london and I still have it now thank goodness and it was stamped on the way from Cambridge to London, and I paid with card so it appears on my bank statement AND I will be on the CCTV as buying a ticket - bought it at 1:44 with a train leaving at 1:47 so proof I was in a rush too. I did also show the RPI the ticket from Cambridge to London.
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I also presented my invalid ticket immediately to a guard when it got rejected at the barrier - CCTV could also proof this. I think that is pretty much opposite behaviour of a fare dodger.
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There would be no problem at all in proving that I bought a ticket
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In your experience, what is the most likely outcome of my situation?