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Provocative cooperation discussion

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GRALISTAIR

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I understand competition is good but I prefer cooperation and no us/them attitude.

I always remember in the Harold Wilson/Jim Callaghan Labour governments of the 1970s the unions being invited for "beer and sandwiches" at No 10.
Now god forbid we do anything as condescending as that but surely if humankind has issues such as decarbonisation etc, I think a great start would be to actually invite representatives from the main 3 railway unions to all Transport Select Committee meetings and get them involved. When a new train is being desigend or other, get the unions on board early on.

Surely a cooperative and no us/them has to be a great way forward?

Or am I way off?
 
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Bald Rick

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I understand competition is good but I prefer cooperation and no us/them attitude.

I always remember in the Harold Wilson/Jim Callaghan Labour governments of the 1970s the unions being invited for "beer and sandwiches" at No 10.
Now god forbid we do anything as condescending as that but surely if humankind has issues such as decarbonisation etc, I think a great start would be to actually invite representatives from the main 3 railway unions to all Transport Select Committee meetings and get them involved. When a new train is being desigend or other, get the unions on board early on.

Surely a cooperative and no us/them has to be a great way forward?

Or am I way off?

Not sure the TSC is the right place; that’s political and covers all transport.
 

Dai Corner

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Until 1996 many Trade Unions, including the NUR/RMT, ASLEF and TSSA, sponsored MPs to speak for them.

The system ended following the introduction of the Seven Principles of Public Life by Lord Nolan's Committee on Standards in Public Life which basically say MPs must represent the public at large rather than particular interest groups.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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I was reading about manufacturers in the communist countries. Apparently they cooperated instead of competing, this was depicted in a negative way.

A taxi driver reported how he was sent on a long trip every week just to collect a box of special bolts, this was cited as an example of wastefulness.

Seems to me like things happen in modern capitalism too.
 

CdBrux

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Surely a cooperative and no us/them has to be a great way forward?
I agree, for any company, having as many of the workforce as possible having a stake in the success of the enterprise is beneficial, but needs to be done well. I suspect for many in management and unions this could be seen as a 'threat' with a perceived loss of power / influence
 

O L Leigh

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This assumes the unions want to be on board at all.

More than that, it also assumes that the government want the unions to be onboard. Given their position on union matters to date, it seems unlikely that they're suddenly going to want to enter into a cooperative partnership with them.
 

Railwaysceptic

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I understand competition is good but I prefer cooperation and no us/them attitude.

I always remember in the Harold Wilson/Jim Callaghan Labour governments of the 1970s the unions being invited for "beer and sandwiches" at No 10.
Now god forbid we do anything as condescending as that but surely if humankind has issues such as decarbonisation etc, I think a great start would be to actually invite representatives from the main 3 railway unions to all Transport Select Committee meetings and get them involved. When a new train is being desigend or other, get the unions on board early on.

Surely a cooperative and no us/them has to be a great way forward?

Or am I way off?
I remember the days of Harold Wilson and beer and sandwiches for trade union leaders. Those meeting were criticised at the time for being anti-democratic because they did not concentrate on issues where trade unions might have special knowledge. Instead they were a general discussion about running the country and the economy.

There is always a case for consulting with people who have specific expertise. Whether the three railway unions' expertise might be useful to the Transport Select Committee is another matter.
 

zwk500

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I just think involving the unions where possible to avoid an us/them mentality would be a great step forward. TSC was just a suggestion.
You won't change an us/them mentality simply by introducing 'us' to 'them', and that applies to both the government and unions, as @O L Leigh mentions. It's not like either group is short of opportunities to sit down face-to-face.
 

zwk500

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Well it would be a damned good start.
Not if it just leads to inflamed tensions, a shouting match and even less desire to work together.

If you want to bring people together, you need to find a common interest. Just putting two people who hate and mistrust each other in the same room doesn't automatically make them reach a spirit of bonhomie.
 

zwk500

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Sorry that is just too defeatist for me.
Have you seen the rhetoric of both sides? They're not just differences of opinions, but fundamentally opposing worldviews. Both are convinced the other is not just 'them' but 'The Enemy'.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Sad, so sad. As my late father-in-law always used to say to me "The only time this country pulls together is when we are at war".

IMHO the ball is in government court. They should make the first move and offer an olive branch to the unions.
 

Dai Corner

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Why should the unions get this special access but not other stakeholders like TOCs, FOCs, manufacturers or even passengers and freight customers?
 

Bald Rick

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Having chaired more union meetings than I care to remember at local, area and regional level (but not national), I’ll say a few things.

Firstly, most union reps at local level are good guys, who are there to represent their colleagues, and do it very well. There are, unfortunately, some reps who think they are there to represent their union, or worse, themselves.

Secondly most managers are good guys too, and really care about their people. Clearly there are some managers who aren’t so caring, and as with the reps the worst sort are those who care mostly about themselves.

Industrial relations issues and mistrust is deep seated, particularly for those ‘long in the game’. In my very first union meeting (as a manager) I was astonished to see a stand up row between ‘staff’ and ‘management’ about a frankly minor issue - it was the relationship that was the problem, not the issues.

The lack of trust is unfortunately infectious. At my first union meeting in a new area the reps were very hostile to me - despite never having met me - and it took about a year of careful ‘management’ (and several trips to the pub, all funded from my pocket!) to build trust enough for the reps to believe that I wasn’t trying to put one over them at every turn. Even then, it was difficult to convince them that my overriding objective in my discussions with them was to do the right thing for my people - the people they represented.

As a manger I have been on the receiving end of some frankly appalling behaviour by union reps, who saw any manager as a target for what I can only describe as playground bullying. I have no doubt that there are managers that have acted the same way to reps. But that is no excuse, either way. My reaction was to explain the facts of life and let it go, on the basis that it’s a long term relationship. Others will, naturally, harbour a grudge.

Most staff I worked with who were in the union did so ‘in case I screw up’, and not for any political cause. Most were also happy to raise specific matters direct through the line management chain, rather than wait for the relevant local meeting (e.g., to complain that the toilet roll had run out, as was an agenda item on one meeting I chaired). Many also rolled their eyes about the union reps - perhaps unjustly - at what they perceived as the reps having an easy ride from management over general work matters because they were a rep. Sadly, some excellent colleagues wouldn’t get involved in union matters or stand in an election to be a rep. In some cases this was almost certainly under ‘pressure’ from existing reps, which is of course almost impossible to prove.

Specifically about the RMT (the union I dealt with the most, although I have also dealt with ASLEF, TSSA, and Unite): it was clear that the further up the hierarchy of the RMT that you go, the more militant it becomes. The late Bob Crow was a moderating tour de force, and since he died it has unquestionably been more difficult for the General Secretary to deal with the Union executive. See the public letters from Messrs Cash and Lynch for evidence.

For me, the fundamental difference is that - in my experience - reps are there to represent their colleagues, whereas managers are there to represent their company. I will now correct my last sentence. Most managers (again, in my experience), rather than represent their company, want to do the right thing for the railway : the passengers / freight users / taxpayers, who ultimately pay all of our salaries. There will of course be plenty of examples where this has not been the case. Whilst this difference is clearly understood by each party, it does make some conversations rather difficult.

So what’s the answer?

For me it lies in consistently great communication between ‘management’ and ‘staff’, with an open and public relationship with the unions. I am in favour that the Board or Executive team of each company should include someone who represents the staff - whether a union rep or not. I’ve said elsewhere that I believe union meetings should be recorded (video) for later playback so that anyone can see what has been discussed. Whilst this would be difficult at times, I think on balance that the openness it provides would be of huge benefit.

It surely must be the right thing to do for all involved in a company to see the current position and future direction of that company, and understand the part they have to play in it.

Here endeth the sermon.
 

8H

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Many thanks for that detailed reply and response.
Well done you for introducing some of our militant capitalists on here to the notion of cooperation! The railway gains from involving everybody and the “great communications” paragraph from Baldrick is a welcome support for your theme. Good ideas come from every level where there is encouragement.
 
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